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dogs and original sin

ertety703

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This question just hit me today. Why do dogs experience childbirth pains if they are not guilty of the original sin of Adam and Eve, where sin falls from?

I know they do, because I tried to help my doxie with her whelping and she was in a lot of pain.

EDIT:

Oops, I put this in the wrong forum.
 
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elopez

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This question just hit me today. Why do dogs experience childbirth pains if they are not guilty of the original sin of Adam and Eve, where sin falls from?
Animals died and felt pain prior to the Fall. So, it is not because of The Fall. It has nothing to do with Adam or Eve. That's just how it is...
 
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GrowingSmaller

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I dont believe in original sin, so to me the argument outlines about dogs is faulty. Birth can be painful, its just a side efect of being human or a dog. For example upright walking which evolved in humans has shifted the pelvis but this makes birth more painful.
 
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jayem

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I dont believe in original sin, so to me the argument outlines about dogs is faulty. Birth can be painful, its just a side efect of being human or a dog. For example upright walking which evolved in humans has shifted the pelvis but this makes birth more painful.


Bipedalism is also a reason why so many people have back problems. Humans are the only mammals who walk upright for most of their lives. That particularly stresses the spine (especially in modern humans prone to obesity and sedentary lifestyles.) And since back pain doesn't generally affect reproductive fitness, natural selection can't operate to favor more robust spinal anatomy.
 
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Cearbhall

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This question just hit me today. Why do dogs experience childbirth pains if they are not guilty of the original sin of Adam and Eve, where sin falls from?

I know they do, because I tried to help my doxie with her whelping and she was in a lot of pain.
It's amazing how many threads on here start with a question that would be answered if the person would only dare to question the premise.
 
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ertety703

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Thanks to all who replied. I get the gist of what you're saying.

Also, I have questioned the premise, but the premise is what I've been taught and it's what I've seen referenced on most of the Christian websites I've visited, so that's what I went with.

No hard feelings. I was just wondering.
 
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hedrick

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The answer is going to depend upon your theology. Christians with a strong view of original sin and a certain literal understanding of Gen 3, are going to say that everything wrong with the world is a result of original sin. God designed a world where everything would work together, no person on animal would suffer. Original sin affected not just us but animals and even inanimate things. There are two reasons for this: Genesis 3 suggest that God actually changed the way things worked, cursing the ground. But more generally, man was designed to be the ruler of the world, and when the ruler is unable to do his job, the whole creation suffers.

Many Christians today don't accept this kind of view of original sin. They may believe, as some have posted here, that there was death and suffering before the fall, and even that Adam and Eve didn't literally exist, so the fall isn't an event in history, but a way of talking about human rebellion against God. Thus when you ask about questions like this you won't get a theological answer, but a scientific one: why would it make sense that bodies would work in such a way that this suffering occurs?

Christian Forums has people with all of these views. It seems to be a matter of luck which group you run into on a particular question. The folks who have answered here (including me) don't hold the most literal view of the Fall. It seems that conservative Christians are most active in creating web sites, so it's not surprising that what you've seen is different. To get views more in tune with critical scholarship there are smaller numbers of web sites, at least in part because preparing well researched content is a lot of work. In the case of evolution and biological issues, biologos.org is a good place to start. Here's a series on this subject from that site: http://biologos.org/blog/death-and-pain-in-the-created-order-part-1. It will give you a broader perspective of the range of views on where pain came from, and the theological assumptions behind those views. (Please do look at all 4 parts of the series. There's a link at the bottom of the page "Next post")

You may find, however, that any theological treatment of suffering leaves you feeling unsatisfied. If so, you are not alone. Job had the same problem. His friends presented all the answers, but none really worked for him. His real answer came from experiencing God directly. In my opinion, God has not created a world where everything is free of pain. The biologos series suggests why that might not be the best way for creatures, intelligent or not, to develop. Remember that this is a God whose response to sin and suffering was to join us and experience it himself, and bring us through it with him.

The problem I have with answering everything by original sin is that it gives us a view of God that I find kind of unbelievable. Would God really allow one person to put him in a position where all of creation isn't the way he wanted it? Didn't he create the garden, knowing what would likely happen? It seems to me that we have to assume that creation as it is now is in accordance with God's intentions, and deal with it as is. Even if he chose to use Adam and Eve and their sin as part of getting it where it is now.
 
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Solomonf1776

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Since there seems to be a confluence of non-biblical answers, I’ll use a biblical answer.

Part of the reason is found in Genesis 1:26 GNV,

26, Furthermore God said, Let us make man in our image according to our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heaven, and over the beasts, and over all the earth, and over everything that creepeth and moveth on the earth.

And when they disobeyed God and by doubting God’s warnings and then placing the blame for his actions on Eve (and possibly God read Genesis 3:12 GNV) and Eve on the serpent (AKA Satan,) as the rulers of the physical realm, chiefly the Earth, it fell with them and became harsh towards them (& us) as well as the animals and plants, part of the punishment towards man. In a sense it makes sense as a cushy environment would not help in bringing them to repentance.
 
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ertety703

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Thank you. I'm not very dogmatic on the subject yet. I consider myself still learning and putting the pieces together. I expected to get some mixed views and perspectives on this, but not a straight answer. I understand this is usually the case with forums.

I have checked out the biologos website, and it did provide some interesting food for thought. Thank you.
 
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Cearbhall

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And when they disobeyed God and by doubting God’s warnings and then placing the blame for his actions on Eve (and possibly God read Genesis 3:12 GNV) and Eve on the serpent (AKA Satan,) as the rulers of the physical realm, chiefly the Earth, it fell with them and became harsh towards them (& us) as well as the animals and plants, part of the punishment towards man.
That's very interesting. I think that's the first response I've heard to this question that actually fits with Christian logic and doesn't seem like someone was grasping at straws. Thanks. :)
 
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poolerboy0077

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I dont believe in original sin
How do you reconcile that rejection with passages like Ex. 20:5 which say:
"You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me."
—Exodus 20:5 [bold, mine]
Though it's not necessarily about original sin, it certainly seems to suggest a sort of perpetual punishment from taint brougth by our forebears.
 
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Cearbhall

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How do you reconcile that rejection with passages like Ex. 20:5 which say:
"You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me."
—Exodus 20:5 [bold, mine]
Though it's not necessarily about original sin, it certainly seems to suggest a sort of perpetual punishment from taint brougth by our forebears.
I doubt a humanist cares much about reconciling that rejection with anything. ^_^
 
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Solomonf1776

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That's very interesting. I think that's the first response I've heard to this question that actually fits with Christian logic and doesn't seem like someone was grasping at straws. Thanks. :)

No problem, since I started writing seriously a few years ago, especially fantasy and science fiction with a Christian feel, I’ve spent a good amount off time researching and reading many things for it and it’s help greatly in that endeavor and get a better understanding of the word.
 
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