Does this verse disprove Sola Scriptura?

Carlos Vigil · May 7, 2004

A. believer said:
Hi Carlos,

Are you familiar with the concept of necessary inference?

No I am not,
please bring me up to speed.

Carlos

BBAS 64 · May 7, 2004

Carlos Vigil said:
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying there BBAS64,
If you are saying THERE IS historical evidence of how scripture was determined and the standard (or canon) by which it was decided.
BUT
The other part of the package (TRADITION ) what the present Church INHERITED ...A certain "Form of Worship" ( THE MASS ) , ( LITURGY )

is subjective and lacks historical evidence??? (is this what you are saying?)

Good Day, Carlos

I think we have covered most of this in past posts, The Scripture is derived from an Historical examination I posted a quote from web site Catholic answers. I agree with the church on this issue as to the methods with they used to gain that knowledge as far as the NT goes. Historical standards are well defined and you have show little by way of you other part of a"package". One who worships God in truth worships in the manner God provided, and is dependant on some "FORM"(liturgy).

If I put on my Protestant sun glasses I can see that M.Luther threw away
All tradition , the good with the bad.... He Threw away The MASS...He threw away the PRIESTHOOD, THE POPE, THE BISHOPS the entire Heirarchy, the Apostolic Authority Given By Christ to the Apostles AND their successors.
Threw away THE ALTAR

All he kept was The Bible alone, and Faith alone.(Lutherans & Anglicans kept
the altars but ADDED the word "SYMBOLICALLY"
Historical evidence reveals that ( compared to an Easter egg ) He (or they,
the reformers ) threw away the EGG but held on to the egg SHELL.
now it is taught that this is all one needs.
the rest has been "ADDED BY MAN"

I will leave this to the Lurtherans, Bill runs away covering head.....

If I put on my Catholic sun glasses , I can see that the egg-shell is good
and so is the rest of the egg....INSIDE the egg is The New Covenant IN MY BLOOD
God is interested in NEW COVENANT KEEPERS.
He is interested in Those who Worship AT THE ALTAR...
He is Pleading "by the Mercy of God" for us to OFFER OUR LIVING BODIES
He is offering us (who are w/o wheels) a free ride to Glory in a vehicle more eloquent than a 747, but we say"I already have a symbol(a print) of a 747, plus my belief in my symbol."

"How often I have wanted to gather you as a mother hen gathers her baby chicks under her wing, BUT YOU WOULD NOT LET ME!"

What 's a mother hen to do?
Carlos

Classic example of poor biblical exergesis IMO:

Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Made man Glasses are just that Man made change the name the result is still the same.

Carlos I have pointed you to some ECF writings by Augustine, that historically contrdicts your view of your ( MASS). That is how an historical conclusion draw. You believe one thing some of the ECF believed some thing differnet how do you reconcile your appert contridiction with the writings of Augustine? Why are you right and he is wrong?

Take the Glasses off, try to be objective in veiwing the history here.

Peace to u,

Bill

ChiRho · May 7, 2004

If I put on my Protestant sun glasses I can see that M.Luther threw away
All tradition , the good with the bad.... He Threw away The MASS...He threw away the PRIESTHOOD, THE POPE, THE BISHOPS the entire Heirarchy, the Apostolic Authority Given By Christ to the Apostles AND their successors.
Threw away THE ALTAR

All he kept was The Bible alone, and Faith alone.(Lutherans & Anglicans kept
the altars but ADDED the word "SYMBOLICALLY"
Historical evidence reveals that ( compared to an Easter egg ) He (or they,
the reformers ) threw away the EGG but held on to the egg SHELL.
now it is taught that this is all one needs.
the rest has been "ADDED BY MAN"

What are you talking about?

This is completely incoherent!

In mercy, I chalk this up to a faulty keyboard, and grant you another opportunity to explain this.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

A. believer · May 7, 2004

Carlos Vigil said:
No , I have not verified them, I have not been to the library yet.
from the dates you gave me they appear to have been written around the time of the reformation, were they not?

The original BIBLE was officially decided by the Council of Hippo, 393 a.d.
and Carthage, 397 a.d. All translations officially recognized by the Church
( even as late as the original King James Bible ) in other words; what the Magisterium of the Holy Roman Catholic Church acknowledges as a VALID translation of the Bible

In his commentary on Romans, Roman Catholic Joseph A. Fitzmyer, S.J. comments that Luther was not the first to invoke sola fide in his translation of Romans. Others used the term in a broader context as well. Below the astericks is what Fitzmyer states on pp. 360-361 of Romans, A New Translation with introduction and Commentary, The Anchor Bible Series (New York: Doubleday, 1993).

**********************************
At 3:28 Luther introduced the adv. only into his translation of Romans (1522), alleyn durch den Glauben (WAusg 7.38); cf. Aus der Bibel 1546, alleine durch den Glauben (WAusg, DB 7.39); also 7.3-27 (Pref. to the Epistle). See further his Sendbrief vom Dolmetschen, of 8 Sept. 1530 (WAusg 30.2 [1909], 627-49; On Translating: An Open Letter [LuthW 35.175-202]). Although alleyn/alleine finds no corresponding adverb in the Greek text, two of the points that Luther made in his defense of the added adverb were that it was demanded by the context and that sola was used in the theological tradition before him.

Robert Bellarmine listed eight earlier authors who used sola (Disputatio de controversiis: De justificatione 1.25 [Naples: G. Giuliano, 1856], 4.501-3):

Origen, Commentarius in Ep. ad Romanos, cap. 3 (PG 14.952).

Hilary, Commentarius in Matthaeum 8:6 (PL 9.961).

Basil, Hom. de humilitate 20.3 (PG 31.529C).

Ambrosiaster, In Ep. ad Romanos 3.24 (CSEL 81.1.119): sola fide justificati sunt dono Dei, through faith alone they have been justified by a gift of God; 4.5 (CSEL 81.1.130).

John Chrysostom, Hom. in Ep. ad Titum 3.3 (PG 62.679 [not in Greek text]).

Cyril of Alexandria, In Joannis Evangelium 10.15.7 (PG 74.368 [but alludes to Jas 2:19]).

Bernard, In Canticum serm. 22.8 (PL 183.881): solam justificatur per fidem, is justified by faith alone.

Theophylact, Expositio in ep. ad Galatas 3.12-13 (PG 124.988).

To these eight Lyonnet added two others (Quaestiones, 114-18):

Theodoret, Affectionum curatio 7 (PG 93.100; ed. J. Raeder [Teubner], 189.20-24). [DTKs note - If I may be so bold as to correct Fitzmyers reference here to Theodoret. The reference in Migne is not PG 93.100, but should be PG 83.1001 - Obviously this may be a typo on the part of Fitzmyer, but at any rate I checked the reference myself and found it elsewhere to be PG 83.1001].

Thomas Aquinas, Expositio in Ep. I ad Timotheum cap. 1, lect. 3 (Parma ed., 13.588): Non est ergo in eis [moralibus et caeremonialibus legis] spes iustificationis, sed in sola fide, Rom. 3:28: Arbitramur justificari hominem per fidem, sine operibus legis (Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law], but in faith alone, Rom 3:28: We consider a human being to be justified by faith, without the works of the law). Cf. In ep. ad Romanos 4.1 (Parma ed., 13.42a): reputabitur fides eius, scilicet sola sine operibus exterioribus, ad iustitiam; In ep. ad Galatas 2.4 (Parma ed., 13.397b): solum ex fide Christi [Opera 20.437, b41]).

See further:

Theodore of Mopsuestia, In ep. ad Galatas (ed. H. B. Swete), 1.31.15.

Marius Victorinus (ep. Pauli ad Galatas (ed. A. Locher), ad 2.15-16: Ipsa enim fides sola iustificationem dat-et sanctificationem (For faith itself alone gives justification and sanctification); In ep. Pauli Ephesios (ed. A. Locher), ad 2.15: Sed sola fides in Christum nobis salus est (But only faith in Christ is salvation for us).

Augustine, De fide et operibus, 22.40 (CSEL 41.84-85): licet recte dici possit ad solam fidem pertinere dei mandata, si non mortua, sed viva illa intellegatur fides, quae per dilectionem operatur (Although it can be said that Gods commandments pertain to faith alone, if it is not dead [faith], but rather understood as that live faith, which works through love).
**********************************

Plus, Catholic translations prior to Luther used the terminology of faith alone with respect to Romans 3:28. The Nuremberg Bible of 1483 had "allein durch den glauben," while the Italian Bibles of Geneva in 1476 and even 1538 had "per sola fide."

A. believer · May 7, 2004

Carlos Vigil said:
I attend at The curch of the uncurcumcised of heart and ear who always oppost the Holy Spirit

My goodness that's quite a blunt admission!

A. believer · May 7, 2004

Carlos Vigil said:
No I am not,
please bring me up to speed.

Carlos

Chi Rho already explained it, so perhaps you should read his post, but it's simply the idea that something needn't be explicitly stated to be the only reasonable inference from what is stated.

Carlos Vigil · May 7, 2004

ChiRho said:
Ooh! Ooh! I am! I am!

Does it mean that from the following verses (and many more), that we can come to only one undeniable conclusion?

Ephesians

8 For (21) by grace you have been saved (22) through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is (23) the gift of God;
9 (24) not as a result of works, so that (25) no one may boast.

Galatians

1 (1) It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore (2) keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a (3) yoke of slavery.
2 Behold I, (4) Paul, say to you that if you receive (5) circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3 And I (6) testify again to every man who receives (7) circumcision, that he is under obligation to (8) keep the whole Law.
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have (9) fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are (10) waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in (11) Christ Jesus (12) neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but (13) faith working through love.
7 You were (14) running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
8 This persuasion did not come from (15) Him who calls you.
9 (16) A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.
10 (17) I have confidence in you in the Lord that you (18) will adopt no other view; but the one who is (19) disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.
11 But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still (20) persecuted? Then (21) the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.
12 I wish that (22) those who are troubling you would even (23) mutilate themselves.
Romans

28 For (46) we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Sola Fide!

SOOOOOO...... What is the one undeniable conclusion
that you have come to..?

Carlos

Carlos Vigil · May 7, 2004

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Carlos

Carlos I have pointed you to some ECF writings by Augustine, that historically contrdicts your view of your ( MASS). That is how an historical conclusion draw. You believe one thing some of the ECF believed some thing differnet how do you reconcile your appert contridiction with the writings of Augustine? Why are you right and he is wrong?

Take the Glasses off, try to be objective in veiwing the history here.

Peace to u,

Bill

Thanks Bill,
If you will be so kind to post where St. Augustine's writings on the Mass are written, I would like to look them up......
I AM CURIOUS as to HOW they Celebrated (Mass ) in his time.
I know from 1 Cor. 5:7 & 8 that St. Paul was doing it in His time , only they called "CHRIST'S PASSOVER FEAST"
maybe our local Priest has St. Augustine's writings.

This Sunday don't forget to Love God With your WHOLE heart, with your WHOLE soul, with your WHOLE mind, and with your WHOLE strength.

and KNOW that I will be bringing you with me to the ALTAR, if it is OK with you?
Carlos

BBAS 64 · May 7, 2004

Carlos Vigil said:
Thanks Bill,
If you will be so kind to post where St. Augustine's writings on the Mass are written, I would like to look them up......
I AM CURIOUS as to HOW they Celebrated (Mass ) in his time.
I know from 1 Cor. 5:7 & 8 that St. Paul was doing it in His time , only they called "CHRIST'S PASSOVER FEAST"
maybe our local Priest has St. Augustine's writings.

TRACTATE 92 (JOHN 15:26-27) 1. The Lord Jesus, in the discourse which He addressed to His disciples after the supper, when Himself in immediate proximity to His passion, and, as it were, on the eve of departure, and of depriving them of His bodily presence while continuing His spiritual presence to all His disciples till the very end of the world, exhorted them to endure the persecutions of the wicked, whom He distinguished by the name of the world: and from which He also told them that He had chosen, the disciples themselves, that they might know it was by the grace of God they were what they were, and by their own vices they had been what they had been. And then His own persecutors and theirs He clearly signified to be the Jews, that it might be perfectly apparent that they also were included in the appellation of that damnable world that persecuteth the saints. And when He had said of them that they knew not Him that sent Him, and yet hated both the Son and the Father, that is, both Him who was sent and Him who sent Him,--of all which we have already treated in previous discourses,--He reached the place where it is said, "This cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause." And then He added, as if by way of consequence, the words whereon we have undertaken at present to discourse: "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, He shall bear witness of me: and ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning." But what connection has this with what He had just said, "But now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father: but that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause"? Was it that the Comforter, when He came, even the Spirit of truth, convicted those, who thus saw and hated, by a still clearer testimony? Yea, verily, some even of those who saw, and still hated, He did convert, by this manifestation of Himself, to the faith that worketh by love. To make this view of the passage intelligible, we recall to your mind that so it actually befell. For when on the day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit fell upon an assembly of one hundred and twenty men, among whom were all the apostles; and when they, filled therewith were speaking in the language of every nation; a goodly number of those who had hated, amazed at the magnitude of the miracle (especially when they perceived in Peter's address so great and divine a testimony borne in behalf of Christ, as that He, who was slain by them and accounted amongst the dead, was proved to have risen again, and to be now alive), were pricked in their hearts and converted; and so became aware of the beneficent character of that precious blood which had been so impiously and cruelly shed, because themselves redeemed by the very blood which they had shed. For the blood of Christ was shed so efficaciously for the remission of all sins, that it could wipe out even the very sin of shedding it. With this therefore in His eye, the Lord said, "They hated me without a cause: but when the Comforter is come, He shall bear witness of me;" saying, as it were, They hated me, and slew me when I stood visibly before their eyes; but such shall be the testimony borne in my behalf by the Comforter, that He will bring them to believe in me when I am no longer visible to their sight.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701.htm

TRACTATE 50 (JOHN 11:55-12)

4. "Now the chief priests and the Pharisees had given a commandment, that, if any man knew where He were, he should show it, that they might take Him." Let us for our parts show the Jews where Christ is. Would, indeed, that all the seed of those who had given commandment to have it shown them where Christ was, would but hear and apprehend! Let them come to the church and hear where Christ is, and take Him. They may hear it from us, they may hear it from the gospel. He was slain by their forefathers, He was buried, He rose again, He was recognized by the disciples, He ascended before their eyes into heaven, and there sitteth at the right hand of the Father; and He who was judged is yet to come as Judge of all: let them hear, and hold fast. Do they reply, How shall I take hold of the absent? how shall I stretch up my hand into heaven, and take hold of one who is sitting there? Stretch up thy faith, and thou hast got hold. Thy forefathers held by the flesh, hold thou with the heart; for the absent Christ is also present. But for His presence, we ourselves were unable to hold Him.
But since His word is true, "Lo, I am with you alway, even to the end of the world," He is away, and He is here; He has returned, and will not forsake us; for He has carried His body into heaven, but His majesty He has never withdrawn from the world.

This Sunday don't forget to Love God With your WHOLE heart, with your WHOLE soul, with your WHOLE mind, and with your WHOLE strength.

and KNOW that I will be bringing you with me to the ALTAR, if it is OK with you?
Carlos

Carlos, My loving of Jesus with all that I am is not resricted to a Sunday exersize only, But is a way of Life IMHO.

How, are you going to bring me I will not be there?
Peace to u,

Bill

Carlos Vigil · May 8, 2004

BBAS 64 said:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701.htm

Carlos, My loving of Jesus with all that I am is not resricted to a Sunday exersize only, But is a way of Life IMHO.

".... not restricted to a Sunday exercise only,"= these are
your words, not mine.

I agree w/you that how we live all of life is a testimony to the Love & fellowship we enjoy with Jesus.
I only mentioned Mass because I believe He is the Fountain of all Holiness
there, where He chose to embed Himself.

BBAS64 said:
How, are you going to bring me I will not be there?
Peace to u,

Bill

Dear Bill,
your "I will" or "I will not" ...is your very own. God respects it and I respect
it too.
The "How " ...is shown in Eph. 1:16-20

" I have never stopped thanking God for you and recommending you in my prayers. May the God of our Lord Jesus Christ , the Father of glory, grant you a spirit of wisdom and insight to know Him clearly. May He enlighten your innermost vision that you may know the great Hope to which He has called you, the wealth of His glorious heritage to be distributed among the members of the church, and the immeasurable scope of His power in us who believe. It is like the strength He showed in raising Christ from the dead and seating Him at His right hand in heaven

Christ makes us an OFFER
Carlos

Brian Daniel · May 8, 2004

Bulldog said:
2Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

No it doesn't. Since there was not yet a New Testament, believers received the teachings of the Apostles by epistle or word of mouth. The Apostles put their teachings in writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, which is what our New Testament contains. To say that God's word also includes some nebulous oral tradition from this verse is to make it say more than it really does.

ChiRho · May 8, 2004

Carlos Vigil said:
SOOOOOO...... What is the one undeniable conclusion
that you have come to..?

Carlos

Sola Fide.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

ChiRho · May 8, 2004

CARLOS VIGIL

If I put on my Protestant sun glasses I can see that M.Luther threw away
All tradition , the good with the bad.... He Threw away The MASS...He threw away the PRIESTHOOD, THE POPE, THE BISHOPS the entire Heirarchy, the Apostolic Authority Given By Christ to the Apostles AND their successors.
Threw away THE ALTAR

All he kept was The Bible alone, and Faith alone.(Lutherans & Anglicans kept
the altars but ADDED the word "SYMBOLICALLY"
Historical evidence reveals that ( compared to an Easter egg ) He (or they,
the reformers ) threw away the EGG but held on to the egg SHELL.
now it is taught that this is all one needs.
the rest has been "ADDED BY MAN"

What are you talking about?

This is completely incoherent!

In mercy, I chalk this up to a faulty keyboard, and grant you another opportunity to explain this.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

Carlos Vigil · May 9, 2004

A. believer said:
Chi Rho already explained it, so perhaps you should read his post, but it's simply the idea that something needn't be explicitly stated to be the only reasonable inference from what is stated.

OOO-K,...OK! I get it.
So, tell me honestly...(Galatians 5:1) "...a yoke of slavery"
(1) Do you believe we (Catholics )are "subject to a YOKE OF SLAVERY ?
(2) Do you believe we (C) receive circumcision (as religious requirement) ?
(3) Do you believe we (C) are under obligation to keep the whole law ?
(4) Do you believe we (C) have fallen from Grace ?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
verses 5 & 6; IS THE IS THE ESSENCE of The religion that Jesus Christ has delivered to us through The Apostles
"For we through the Spirit, by Faith, are waiting for the Hope of Righteousness. in Christ , ...FAITH WORKING THROUGH LOVE."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
along with 1 Ptr. 1:2 ; "consecrated BY THE SPIRIT to a life of OBEDIENCE
to JESUS CHRIST and purification with His blood....and
verse :9 "...because you are achieving faith's goal, your salvation.

as opposed to
if you are "already saved" what else is left for you to achieve???

and now...back to "necessary inference".
(a) Is it scriptural? (are we commanded to conclude from words that neither Christ nor the Apostles STATED?)...where is it?
(b) What shall GOD do when IT IS EXPLICITLY STATED and the hearer
WILL NOT conclude (or infer).......as in John 6:53, ""I solemnly assure you, if you do not eat the flesh of The Son of Man and drink His Blood, you have no life in you."

Something has to to GIVE here;either God has to change the Wording and
the meaning.
or we have to change OUR MEANING (of HIS WORD) and our understanding !

If we FORCE our "inference" (or our conclusion) over His Words...
one of us is in trouble, and it is not God.

un gusano, munching on TRUTH
Carlos

Carlos Vigil · May 9, 2004

ChiRho said:
What are you talking about?

This is completely incoherent!

In mercy, I chalk this up to a faulty keyboard, and grant you another opportunity to explain this.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

Sorry I took so long...My son Nic has an awesome latin band and I JUST HAD TO GO ...and dance my guts out!!!......now that I'm back, beaten to a pulp, I'll get back to the REAL stuff......OK!

Thank you for your mercy, although it is not a faulty heyboard, it's the lunatic, heretic, charismatic, AT the keyboard

Paragraph A.
(1) Why are Protestants so fearful of "TRADITION?"as if it were "AIDS"
(2) Why don't Reformers celebrate Christ's Passover feast?
(3) where did Evangelicals get the authority to exclude Priests
(4) Why dont your churches name one authority as successor to Peter?
............if you tell me "The Bible" then why can't you agree?
(5) Where did Reformers get the authority to remove The ALTAR?
......if you say "the altar of the heart" ...where is that in scripture?
(6) Where did Evangelicals, Interdonoms, and Nondenoms get the "inference" to dispose of RITUALS,decrees, precepts, ordinances, sacraments, when Christ inheritet and transmitted them to us?

Paragraph B.
( if you want my explanation of paragraph B., I'll wait til I hear from you regarding paragraph A.)...my posts are getting extremely long and I fear I may be writing beyond my understanding.

Respectfully of anyone who may read my incoherence.
May God fill you to overflowing with His Spirit, which
SURPASSES all understanding!
Carlos

Carlos Vigil · May 9, 2004

ChiRho said:
Sola Fide.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

OK!....... I believe SOLA FIDE has the authority to lead everyone to justification & salvation. just as it says;

in Rom. 1:16 & 17
"It is the power of God leading everyone who BELIEVES in to salvation......."
"In the Gospel is revealed the JUSTICE of God which begins and ends with FAITH."

in Eph. 4:5
"There is one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism."

in Mt.28:20
"Teach them to carry out EVERYTHING I have commanded you."

For SOLA FIDE TO BE TRUE; (4) things have to be in place.
Jesus Christ, Faith, Everything Commanded, and Disciples.

The least understood of these is FAITH.
some confuse Faith with knowledge.-----"if you know, you have" or
"if you read it, you have it"..."if you believe in the bible, you are saved".
all of these are knowledge., they are NOT FAITH.

One can say;"FAITH IS A PACKAGE" filled with substance, delivered to us by
FedEx. (fedex being; Christ, The Holy Spirit, the Apostles, & the Church.)
"substance" is The Message, The Fellowship, The Fountain of All Holiness,
and The Witness.

what WE do with the package is "BELIEVE "......do you know the difference between "Faith" and "Believe"?
isn't FAITH like when someone tosses you a basketball,... isn't BELIEVE like grasping it with both hands, all (10) fingers?.....well,

aren't we commanded DO OUR BELIEVING with our WHOLE heart, mind, soul, & strength???.....and doing it with our mind, isn't it only "knowledge"?...

In America most "christians" do it with their mind and think they are done.

So ...from our U.S.A. point of view, we say Faith? yup!...I know it; I got it!
From God's point of view..."these people honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me."

SO.......

If you want me to believe in your version of SOLA FIDE, you are going to have to replace all the missing parts.

Inspector Clue So!,
cleverly disguised as
Carlos

Rechtgläubig · May 9, 2004

(1) Why are Protestants so fearful of "TRADITION?"as if it were "AIDS"

Don't know why they do. We Lutherans do cherish tradition as long as it doesn't conflict with Scripture. http://bookofconcord.org/smalcald.html#traditions

(3) where did Evangelicals get the authority to exclude Priests

Where did Rome get the authority to place extra mediators in the path of Christians and Jesus?

(4) Why dont your churches name one authority as successor to Peter?

http://bookofconcord.org/treatise.html
http://bookofconcord.org/smalcald.html#article4

(5) Where did Reformers get the authority to remove The ALTAR?

I will let others speak for themselves. We have an altar in our churches so this does not apply to me.

(6) Where did Evangelicals, Interdonoms, and Nondenoms get the "inference" to dispose of RITUALS,decrees, precepts, ordinances, sacraments, when Christ inheritet and transmitted them to us?

http://bookofconcord.org/augsburgdefense/12_sacraments.html

All I have time for, my weekend begins!

ChrisB · May 10, 2004

Is this a fellowship thread or are you guys debating?

BBAS 64 · May 10, 2004

Carlos Vigil said:
".... not restricted to a Sunday exercise only,"= these are
your words, not mine.

I agree w/you that how we live all of life is a testimony to the Love & fellowship we enjoy with Jesus.
I only mentioned Mass because I believe He is the Fountain of all Holiness
there, where He chose to embed Himself.

Dear Bill,
your "I will" or "I will not" ...is your very own. God respects it and I respect
it too.
The "How " ...is shown in Eph. 1:16-20

" I have never stopped thanking God for you and recommending you in my prayers. May the God of our Lord Jesus Christ , the Father of glory, grant you a spirit of wisdom and insight to know Him clearly. May He enlighten your innermost vision that you may know the great Hope to which He has called you, the wealth of His glorious heritage to be distributed among the members of the church, and the immeasurable scope of His power in us who believe. It is like the strength He showed in raising Christ from the dead and seating Him at His right hand in heaven

Christ makes us an OFFER
Carlos

Good Day, Carlos

I am still waiting on your imput as the the historical record of this other part of your "package Deal". We have gone a round and around on many issues, with you making assertions with out backup them up with the historical record.

You started out with a gross over simplified attack on Sola Scriptura, then moved on to Sola Fide. AB has given you ample refences and you have not, backed away from your un historical view of this issue. One starts to wonder why?

We have gone though the useage of words such as Liturgy, worship and variations of these words. Forms do not infer correct worship I have asked for you to help me understand your point of view here. You have misquoted the Scripture in "THE HEN AND THE CHICKS" and have not addressed the implications of bad exergesis on your part.

Then you have moved on to the current RC veiw of the Mass that you hold to. I have given you Augustines view of the verses in John that you refer to, to no avail. I could give you 10-12 more if you would like from various church writings though out the centuries.

Carlos what do you think when Augustine tells you that the:

The Lord Jesus, in the discourse which He addressed to His disciples after the supper, when Himself in immediate proximity to His passion, and, as it were, on the eve of departure, and of depriving them of His bodily presence while continuing His spiritual presence to all His disciples till the very end of the world, exhorted them to endure the persecutions of the wicked, whom He distinguished by the name of the world

Do you believe that the disciples were deprived of the bodily presence of the Lord? How about the disciples to the end of the world?

Peace to u,

Bill

Rechtgläubig · May 10, 2004

Is this a fellowship thread or are you guys debating?

http://christianforums.com/t34458 #2

Does this verse disprove Sola Scriptura?

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