Does this prove universalism?

ClementofA · May 11, 2018

Someone posted this:

"I’d like to see if anyone can find fault with these verses and the logic behind them in proving, through biblical texts, that hell absolutely must be temporary and for the purpose of saving everyone. I’m just trying to test my arguments so I can refine them and toss out any that are no good. I need to find the chinks in the armor since I’ll eventually write a book on this subject.

"The Bible has a few verses that describe God’s nature. I wouldn’t call this proof-texting because these are about God’s nature, which is always the same no matter what the context.

1 - …for God all things are possible (in reference to saving mankind). (Matt 19:26)
2 - …he does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Pet 3:9)
3 - The LORD does whatever pleases him in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all its deep regions. (Ps 135:6)
4 - For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him. (Phil 2:13)
5 - A man chooses in his heart, but the LORD directs his steps. (Pro 16:9)

Let’s take this step-by-step:

We’re told that God’s will is that none perish but that all come to repentance (ie. - turn from their sinful ways). (2 Pet 3:9)
Then we’re told that He does all His pleasure in heaven and on earth, in the seas and its deep regions (a figurative saying meant to show that He controls every little thing that happens everywhere). (Ps 135:6)
And we find that for God, ALL things are possible (and in that verse, it’s specifically talking about saving men’s souls). (Matt 19:26)
Then we’re told that He produces in us both the desire and the ability to do what pleases Him. (Phil 2:13)
And finally, Proverbs tells us, “A man chooses in his heart, but the LORD directs his steps.” (Pro 16:9)

"In short, if you believe all of those verses are accurate about Him, it means He absolutely must save all of mankind or the Bible is inaccurate about His nature, and He is not truly “Love” as the Bible says. Why would He go against His stated will and make people suffer in Hell forever (perish) when we’re told by Him (Jesus, specifically) that He can do all things (specifically, save someone whom it seems is impossible to save)? Is He just choosing not to save everyone for kicks and giggles? Does He make people suffer for eternity in hell to “show His glory,” as the Calvinist says, which makes absolutely zero sense being that it shows exactly the opposite? I really don’t think so. I think eternal hell doctrine completely destroys the integrity of the Bible and God’s character.

Is there any way to disprove that argument, or is that a pretty sound argument to prove that hell cannot be eternal and that God saves everyone?"

End quote.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

Humble me Lord · May 11, 2018

No, it doesn't.

Tom 1 · May 11, 2018

ClementofA said:
Someone posted this:

"I’d like to see if anyone can find fault with these verses and the logic behind them in proving, through biblical texts, that hell absolutely must be temporary and for the purpose of saving everyone. I’m just trying to test my arguments so I can refine them and toss out any that are no good. I need to find the chinks in the armor since I’ll eventually write a book on this subject.

"The Bible has a few verses that describe God’s nature. I wouldn’t call this proof-texting because these are about God’s nature, which is always the same no matter what the context.

1 - …for God all things are possible (in reference to saving mankind). (Matt 19:26)
2 - …he does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Pet 3:9)
3 - The LORD does whatever pleases him in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all its deep regions. (Ps 135:6)
4 - For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him. (Phil 2:13)
5 - A man chooses in his heart, but the LORD directs his steps. (Pro 16:9)

Let’s take this step-by-step:

We’re told that God’s will is that none perish but that all come to repentance (ie. - turn from their sinful ways). (2 Pet 3:9)

Then we’re told that He does all His pleasure in heaven and on earth, in the seas and its deep regions (a figurative saying meant to show that He controls every little thing that happens everywhere). (Ps 135:6)

And we find that for God, ALL things are possible (and in that verse, it’s specifically talking about saving men’s souls). (Matt 19:26)

Then we’re told that He produces in us both the desire and the ability to do what pleases Him. (Phil 2:13)

And finally, Proverbs tells us, “A man chooses in his heart, but the LORD directs his steps.” (Pro 16:9)

"In short, if you believe all of those verses are accurate about Him, it means He absolutely must save all of mankind or the Bible is inaccurate about His nature, and He is not truly “Love” as the Bible says. Why would He go against His stated will and make people suffer in Hell forever (perish) when we’re told by Him (Jesus, specifically) that He can do all things (specifically, save someone whom it seems is impossible to save)? Is He just choosing not to save everyone for kicks and giggles? Does He make people suffer for eternity in hell to “show His glory,” as the Calvinist says, which makes absolutely zero sense being that it shows exactly the opposite? I really don’t think so. I think eternal hell doctrine completely destroys the integrity of the Bible and God’s character.

Is there any way to disprove that argument, or is that a pretty sound argument to prove that hell cannot be eternal and that God saves everyone?"

End quote.

It’s a bit weak. It denies any possibility that people make bad, self destructive choices, and contradicts basic aspects of human psychology. If a person continually rejects God after coming to some knowledge of him, eventually they may no longer be able to repent. God cannot ‘make’ a person repent, he did not create us with a switch that takes away our ability to choose when necessary. For much of our lives we simply focus on other things, other than God. For some people those other things essentially become their gods - God cannot ‘make’ them think differently, if they were the case, we wouldn’t be human, we’d just be a kind of advanced form of AI

Micah888 · May 12, 2018

ClementofA said:
And we find that for God, ALL things are possible (and in that verse, it’s specifically talking about saving men’s souls). (Matt 19:26)

As long as we keep in mind that every sinner must meet two conditions: (1) repentance toward God and (2) faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

ClementofA said:
Then we’re told that He produces in us both the desire and the ability to do what pleases Him.

This only applies to those who are already saved.

Universalism is contrary to the Gospel.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:18,36).

Haipule · May 12, 2018

ClementofA said:
Someone posted this:

"I’d like to see if anyone can find fault with these verses and the logic behind them in proving, through biblical texts, that hell absolutely must be temporary and for the purpose of saving everyone. I’m just trying to test my arguments so I can refine them and toss out any that are no good. I need to find the chinks in the armor since I’ll eventually write a book on this subject.

"The Bible has a few verses that describe God’s nature. I wouldn’t call this proof-texting because these are about God’s nature, which is always the same no matter what the context.

1 - …for God all things are possible (in reference to saving mankind). (Matt 19:26)
2 - …he does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Pet 3:9)
3 - The LORD does whatever pleases him in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all its deep regions. (Ps 135:6)
4 - For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him. (Phil 2:13)
5 - A man chooses in his heart, but the LORD directs his steps. (Pro 16:9)

Let’s take this step-by-step:

We’re told that God’s will is that none perish but that all come to repentance (ie. - turn from their sinful ways). (2 Pet 3:9)

Then we’re told that He does all His pleasure in heaven and on earth, in the seas and its deep regions (a figurative saying meant to show that He controls every little thing that happens everywhere). (Ps 135:6)

And we find that for God, ALL things are possible (and in that verse, it’s specifically talking about saving men’s souls). (Matt 19:26)

Then we’re told that He produces in us both the desire and the ability to do what pleases Him. (Phil 2:13)

And finally, Proverbs tells us, “A man chooses in his heart, but the LORD directs his steps.” (Pro 16:9)

"In short, if you believe all of those verses are accurate about Him, it means He absolutely must save all of mankind or the Bible is inaccurate about His nature, and He is not truly “Love” as the Bible says. Why would He go against His stated will and make people suffer in Hell forever (perish) when we’re told by Him (Jesus, specifically) that He can do all things (specifically, save someone whom it seems is impossible to save)? Is He just choosing not to save everyone for kicks and giggles? Does He make people suffer for eternity in hell to “show His glory,” as the Calvinist says, which makes absolutely zero sense being that it shows exactly the opposite? I really don’t think so. I think eternal hell doctrine completely destroys the integrity of the Bible and God’s character.

Is there any way to disprove that argument, or is that a pretty sound argument to prove that hell cannot be eternal and that God saves everyone?"

End quote.

First of all, gehenna(NT--translated "hell") is only used in the here and now. It is not used in the future state of anyone. There is no 'theological' "hell".

The Greek word "gehenna" literally refers to a valley which was a burning trash heap(dump) south and outside the city of Jerusalem. Figuratively, it just means that if you choose NOT to follow the Great Shepherd, and His purpose and destiny for your life, and you just may end up in gehenna--right here, right now--and that whether you are a sheep or a goat!

If you don't know what I mean, talk to an alcoholic or a drug addict criminal about there life in "hell".

The Bible does not separate "believers" and "unbelievers"--post-reform Christians do! The Bible only separates sheep from goats. Sheep follow the Shepherd, goats do not.

True sheep live in heaven(sky--authoritative position) right here, right now! Goats don't "go" to "hell"` as they're already there!

The afterlife for goats is the "Lake of Fire" and not "hell". There life now is hell and there afterlife is that Lake.

The end of the sheep is the Paradise of God and not "heaven". Our life now is

(or should be)

"heaven"(sky--authoritative position from God to kick some butt! We wear crowns later!).

Anyone whom unites the ideas of gehenna(here, now) and the Lake(to come) or, heaven(authoritative position--here, now) and paradise(to come), is thoroughly confused!

A sheep is anyone whom has come to God. All of whom "He will NOT case out". Although they my feel the "Rod and the Staff" occasionally.

A goat is anyone whom has never gone to God for any reason.

OSAS--Once a Sheep, Always a Sheep!

AvgJoe · May 12, 2018

Matthew 25:46 says, “Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” If the punishment of the unsaved doesn't last forever, then neither does the life of the righteous. Universalism is false.

Shempster · May 12, 2018

Clem... what I noticed immediately about your posted verses is an overwhelming theme that it IS GOD'S WILL that all should be saved.
So my immediate question is: is God able to obtain what he wants or is it "out of his hands"?
Did God create a system where he WANTS something but is unable to obtain it? Why would he do that to himself?
I know the comebacks...because of our free will, it is out of his hands and beyond his ability to obtain it, because the common belief is that the vast majority of souls will not ever be restored to him.
What's worse is the misunderstood doctrine of predestination that the vast majority were intently and purposefully created for everlasting destruction.

That whole scenario bothered me for 25 years, as I stuck to the common beliefs all that time because I figured that 2,000 years of scholarly opinions just can't be wrong.

....or could they?

Der Alte · May 12, 2018

Haipule said:
First of all, gehenna(NT--translated "hell") is only used in the here and now. It is not used in the future state of anyone. There is no 'theological' "hell".
The Greek word "gehenna" literally refers to a valley which was a burning trash heap(dump) south and outside the city of Jerusalem. Figuratively, it just means that if you choose NOT to follow the Great Shepherd, and His purpose and destiny for your life, and you just may end up in gehenna--right here, right now--and that whether you are a sheep or a goat!...

You might wish to revise your view on this.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in
The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism

Der Alte · May 12, 2018

ClementofA said:
Someone posted this:
"I’d like to see if anyone can find fault with these verses and the logic behind them in proving, through biblical texts, that hell absolutely must be temporary and for the purpose of saving everyone. I’m just trying to test my arguments so I can refine them and toss out any that are no good. I need to find the chinks in the armor since I’ll eventually write a book on this subject.
"The Bible has a few verses that describe God’s nature. I wouldn’t call this proof-texting because these are about God’s nature, which is always the same no matter what the context.
1 - …for God all things are possible (in reference to saving mankind). (Matt 19:26)
2 - …he does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Pet 3:9)
3 - The LORD does whatever pleases him in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all its deep regions. (Ps 135:6)
4 - For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him. (Phil 2:13)
5 - A man chooses in his heart, but the LORD directs his steps. (Pro 16:9)
Let’s take this step-by-step:
1. We’re told that God’s will is that none perish but that all come to repentance (ie. - turn from their sinful ways). (2 Pet 3:9)
2. Then we’re told that He does all His pleasure in heaven and on earth, in the seas and its deep regions (a figurative saying meant to show that He controls every little thing that happens everywhere). (Ps 135:6)
3. And we find that for God, ALL things are possible (and in that verse, it’s specifically talking about saving men’s souls). (Matt 19:26)
4. Then we’re told that He produces in us both the desire and the ability to do what pleases Him. (Phil 2:13)
5. And finally, Proverbs tells us, “A man chooses in his heart, but the LORD directs his steps.” (Pro 16:9)
"In short, if you believe all of those verses are accurate about Him, it means He absolutely must save all of mankind or the Bible is inaccurate about His nature, and He is not truly “Love” as the Bible says. Why would He go against His stated will and make people suffer in Hell forever (perish) when we’re told by Him (Jesus, specifically) that He can do all things (specifically, save someone whom it seems is impossible to save)? Is He just choosing not to save everyone for kicks and giggles? Does He make people suffer for eternity in hell to “show His glory,” as the Calvinist says, which makes absolutely zero sense being that it shows exactly the opposite? I really don’t think so. I think eternal hell doctrine completely destroys the integrity of the Bible and God’s character.
Is there any way to disprove that argument, or is that a pretty sound argument to prove that hell cannot be eternal and that God saves everyone?"

The same arguments over and over and over.
Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

Haipule · May 12, 2018

Der Alter said:
You might wish to revise your view on this.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1
Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in
The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism

Haipule · May 12, 2018

No evidence?

Hell

The Greek word always translated as “hell” in the NASB is the Greek feminine noun geenna which is usually transliterated as “Gehenna” by teachers. It is of Hebrew origin and literally means “Valley of Hinnom” which was south of Jerusalem and refers to “a burning trash heap(garbage dump) outside the city of Jerusalem”.

"They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. Jer 32:35 NASB

Gehenna NEVER refers to a place bad people go, nor unbelievers(untrustworthy-ones, goat-people) go, when they die. Rather, it refers to a place you will go, right here, right now, if you completely reject God’s offer of zOE-life! If you need an example, look at a drug addict, a severely depressed person, fearful one, OCD, or an alcoholic, who’s here and now lives can only be described as a “burning trash heap”.

Alcoholic: A [staff edit] who always drinks in and with the kosmos-world system instead of in God’s kingdom; under God’s rule; within the boundaries of God’s justice; thinking God’s thoughts; with God’s likeminded kingdom people. They think there’s life at the bottom of a glass. But rather, they only find a curse!

(Jesus speaking)" If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you It is better for you to enter (zOE-)life(right here, right now) with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell(thee Gehenna--trash heap--of-thee fire--right here, right now). Matt 18:9 NASB

(Jesus speaking)" If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom(rulership) of God(right here, right now) with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into [thee] hell(Gehenna) [of-thee fire], Mark 9:47 NASB

Notice the here and now relationship of “zOE-life” and the “kingdom of God” given in those two verses! They are equated!

Hyper-Literal: (Jesus speaking)And-also no be!-you-all-scared-away(middle-passive)* from thee-all of-ones-keep-on-being-(separate)from-slaying thee body, yet thee psuchE-breath no of-ones-being-enabled(middle-passive) to-be-(separate)from-slaying: yet be!-you-all-scared-away(middle-passive)* rather thee One-being-enabled(middle-passive) and-also psuchE-breath and-also body to-ruin* in [ ]Gehenna(right here, right now). Matt 10:28

(Jesus speaking)"Woe to you(-all), scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites(Scribes! and-also Pharisees!, Hypocrites!--all vocative), because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much [a]son of hell(Gehenna) as yourselves(right here, right now). Matt 23:15 NASB

Hyper-Literal: (Jesus speaking)Serpents!, Progeny! of-vipers, how?(in what way?) you-all-might-flee* from thee judgment of-thee Gehenna(right here, right now)? Matt 23:33

The people living in the Gehenna of fire--burning-trash-heap, are in desperate need of help!

Save(rescue--right here, right now) others, snatching them out of the fire(right here, right now); and on some have mercy(the desire and ability to help someone) with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh. Jude 1:23 NASB

Hyper-Literal(same verse): Yet whom-all in fear(people living in fear, including “obsessive compulsive behavior”), be!-you-all-rescuing out-from of-thee fire ones-always-snatching, ones-always-hating and-also thee, from of-thee flesh, one-having-been-being-spotted, tunic. Jude 1:23

The Hebrew Older Testament(covenants) word sometimes translated as “hell”, in the KJV, is sheol and often means “a pit” both literally and figuratively. Unfortunately, it is also sometimes translated as “grave(Hebrew has a different word for grave)”. The NASB leaves it transliterated as “Sheol”. It often figuratively refers to a right here, right now lower existence. We might say into modern English, “My life is the pits” or, “is in the pits”.

The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath. Prov 15:24 KJV

The path of life(here and now) leads upward for the wise That he may keep away from Sheol below(here and now while living--as all the departed dead, at the time this was written, went down to Sheol). Prov 15:24 NASB

Sheol also refers to the subterranean domain of the departed dead. Which usage is similar to the Greek transliterated word “Hades” and "Tartarus"(collection of prisons).

Yes, I understand that geenna may NOT be literal but it's figurative usage should not be ignored.

Certainly, using gehenna to refer to the domain of the departed dead goats is misleading and dead WRONG!

Sammy-San · May 12, 2018

AvgJoe said:
Matthew 25:46 says, “Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” If the punishment of the unsaved doesn't last forever, then neither does the life of the righteous. Universalism is false.

The reason universalism will never be true isn't because of most people being ultra evil-it's about the massive size of the harvest of the souls.

Haipule · May 13, 2018

Shempster said:
Clem... what I noticed immediately about your posted verses is an overwhelming theme that it IS GOD'S WILL that all should be saved.
So my immediate question is: is God able to obtain what he wants or is it "out of his hands"?
Did God create a system where he WANTS something but is unable to obtain it? Why would he do that to himself?
I know the comebacks...because of our free will, it is out of his hands and beyond his ability to obtain it, because the common belief is that the vast majority of souls will not ever be restored to him.
What's worse is the misunderstood doctrine of predestination that the vast majority were intently and purposefully created for everlasting destruction.

That whole scenario bothered me for 25 years, as I stuck to the common beliefs all that time because I figured that 2,000 years of scholarly opinions just can't be wrong.

....or could they?

Regardless of those 2,000 year of completely incompetent teaching about destiny. You are right! Predestination my butt!

And they can throw all the completely stupid translations and "brilliant commentaries" at me, if they want, which was taught to them by there "Grand Poobah" teacher who is "the Apostle Paul of our generation!"(give me a break!)

The Greek proposition pro means "in-front"--PLACE! I can't even think of a verse that has pro related to time right now but, it certainly can.

ALL of the ideas, circulating among Christians about "predestination", are completely stupid! Everyone one of them! They couldn't teach Romans 9 to save there sorry asses!

God to us is pro(in front--PLACE) and NOT "pre(time)".

Does everyone think, that somehow, all the events of your life, and the future history of the world, is somehow, "written in stone"?

My God, are THEY freakin' lazy!

I follow Jesus, the Word and Great Shepherd, no matter how crazy it may seem to me, or others! AND IT ROCKS!

Like David once said, "The Lord is the one shepherding me. I SHALL LACK NOTHING!

Not "pre", PRO!

Geez everyone, quit being lazy! You all have a destiny and a purpose which is your glorification and God's glory! Go for it! Make it happen! Wear crowns! You CAN"T fail! You WON"T lose! Just follow the Shepherd! Stuff WILL happen--GUARANS!

Haipule · May 13, 2018

If you think that the Word of God, both Older Covenants and Newer Covenants, are all about "how to go to heaven when you die"!

Well, the truth is, you can only go to "heaven"(right here. right now) when you live--right here, right now! As "heaven" is ONLY for the living ones--right here, right now! And it's SUPER easy:

Jesus said: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the LIFE!

Unfortunately, because of ridiculous religiosities, it is a VERY narrow path that FEW find but, I'll give you a secret: it looks just like Jesus in a mirror! Your welcome

Sammy-San · May 13, 2018

Haipule said:
If you think that the Word of God, both Older Covenants and Newer Covenants, are all about "how to go to heaven when you die"!

Well, the truth is, you can only go to "heaven"(right here. right now) when you live--right here, right now! As "heaven" is ONLY for the living ones--right here, right now! And it's SUPER easy:

Jesus said: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the LIFE!

Unfortunately, because of ridiculous religiosities, it is a VERY narrow path that FEW find but, I'll give you a secret: it looks just like Jesus in a mirror! Your welcome

The path is narrow because Christians havent evangelized as much as they could have, and that is God's protocol for a soul being saved.

It isnt because of free will-God sending angels to preach the gospel to all and convicting people ever over time would still be free will.
What did Jesus mean by saying "only a few find the narrow gate"?

The "Narrow way to Heaven", in contrast, is difficult to choose because our sinful nature always drag us towards the world. Following Jesus requires carrying your own cross, run your own race, obeying the word of God. Many people know this way but are not willing to choose it and go through it. Instead, many people love this world so much and can't just let go of it. Still, many people are blinded by Satan and choose to believe lies and false religions.

Those people wanna know God too they just are unevangelized.

Haipule · May 13, 2018

Superhero Sam said:
The path is narrow because Christians havent evangelized as much as they could have, and that is God's protocol for a soul being saved.

It isnt because of free will-God sending angels to preach the gospel to all and convicting people ever over time would still be free will.
What did Jesus mean by saying "only a few find the narrow gate"?

Those people wanna know God too they just are unevangelized.

Well, contrary to popular belief, the Greek word euanggelion, transliterated as evangelium in Latin, and thusly transliterated in to English as evangelize has not been translated for you and refers to a well, or beneficial message and does not refer to a "Gospel" message but, any message given you that is well or beneficial to your life.

eu(prefixed adverb) = well/beneficial + aggelion = message.

It does not mean a 'good' message as 'good' is an adjective.

An aggelos transliterated as "angel" means: messenger. And that, whether human or angelic.

A person who gives a well/beneficial message is called an euaggelistEs, NOT an "evangelist".

Paul did not call the entire book of Romans his "Gospel". He called it his euaggelion: well/beneficial message.

The bible is not a book of "salvation". It is a book of life and that more abundant.

"Salvation" into English is transliterated from the French "salvation" which is transliterated from the Latin "salvationem" And post-reform teachers have assigned that word a specific meaning.

Whereas, the biblical Greek word is sOtEria and refers to: deliverance, preservation, rescue, keep safe and sound, made whole, etc. It is very general and not specific.

The word has to do with the entire existence of our God promised zOE-life and not a specific moment. It is every moment of our life with God.

One of the reasons why there is a wide path that leads to destruction is that our English bible is Latinized which masks and hides God's beautiful words of life.

People are becoming "evangelized" onto the wide path with blinders on telling themselves that they are on the narrow path.

Jesus had the same problem in His day:

Matthew 23:15 15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

The narrow path is as unreligious as God is. It is the path that leads to life through the instructions given us in God's Word and what we learn from life and death along the way. It is a very adventurous life full of good things as God works the all things of our life for good--even the battles! Trust me, I got scares!

ClementofA · May 13, 2018

Der Alter said:
The same arguments over and over and over.

The argument of the OP has never been posted by me - or AFAIK - anyone - here on this site. Or, AFAIK, on any site anywhere, except where i originally read it or have copied it myself. It is unique.

Your response, like others, trying to trump it by posting verses from elsewhere in Scripture, does not directly address the argument of the OP. Regardless what other passages of Scripture say, you still haven't refuted the argument of the OP.

Passages for and against universalism are well known. The purpose of the OP is not to invite a spamming of this thread with such (e.g. your post's argument), which have been addressed & refuted elsewhere in this forum, but to directly discuss the validity of the OP argument.

Therefore i'm ignoring a direct reply to your post & all those like it.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

Der Alte · May 13, 2018

ClementofA said:
. . .Passages for and against universalism are well known. The purpose of the OP is not to invite a spamming of this thread with such (e.g. your post's argument), which have been addressed & refuted elsewhere in this forum, but to directly discuss the validity of the OP argument.
Therefore i'm ignoring a direct reply to your post & all those like it. . .

You are deceiving yourself. You have never refuted anything in any of my posts.

S.O.J.I.A. · May 13, 2018

No™

Der Alte · May 13, 2018

Haipule said:
Well, contrary to popular belief, the Greek word euanggelion, transliterated as evangelium in Latin, and thusly transliterated in to English as evangelize has not been translated for you and refers to a well, or beneficial message and does not refer to a "Gospel" message but, any message given you that is well or beneficial to your life.
eu(prefixed adverb) = well/beneficial + aggelion = message.
It does not mean a 'good' message as 'good' is an adjective.
An aggelos transliterated as "angel" means: messenger. And that, whether human or angelic.
A person who gives a well/beneficial message is called an euaggelistEs, NOT an "evangelist".
Paul did not call the entire book of Romans his "Gospel". He called it his euaggelion: well/beneficial message.
The bible is not a book of "salvation". It is a book of life and that more abundant.
"Salvation" into English is transliterated from the French "salvation" which is transliterated from the Latin "salvationem" And post-reform teachers have assigned that word a specific meaning.
Whereas, the biblical Greek word is sOtEria and refers to: deliverance, preservation, rescue, keep safe and sound, made whole, etc. It is very general and not specific.
The word has to do with the entire existence of our God promised zOE-life and not a specific moment. It is every moment of our life with God.
One of the reasons why there is a wide path that leads to destruction is that our English bible is Latinized which masks and hides God's beautiful words of life.
People are becoming "evangelized" onto the wide path with blinders on telling themselves that they are on the narrow path.
Jesus had the same problem in His day:
Matthew 23:15 15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
The narrow path is as unreligious as God is. It is the path that leads to life through the instructions given us in God's Word and what we learn from life and death along the way. It is a very adventurous life full of good things as God works the all things of our life for good--even the battles! Trust me, I got scares!

εὐ adv. (Hom.+; ins, pap, LXX; TestJob 44:3; ParJer 7:9; EpArist, Philo, Joseph.; Ar. [Milne, p. 74 ln. 1]; Just.; Tat. 17, 3; Ath. καλῶς becomes the more usual word: JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 11f.)
① pert. to that which is good or beneficial, as applied to interpersonal relationship or experience, well εὖ ποιεῖν do good, show kindness (X., Cyr. 1, 6, 30, Oec. 2, 5; Demosth. 20, 37; POxy 1292, 3 [c. 30 A.D.]; LXX; TestJob 44:3f [εὐποιεῖν]; Jos., Ant. 14, 378; Just., A I, 28, 3, D. 118, 5) τινί (Ex 1:20; Sir 12:2, 5. Usu. the acc. follows) Mk 14:7. εὖ δουλεύειν 1 Cl 16:12 (Is 53:11). εὖ πράσσειν (ποιεῖν) means as a rule get along well, be prosperous (Pind.; X., Mem. 1, 6, 8; 2, 4, 6; 4, 2, 26, Oec. 11, 8; Pla., Prot. 333d; Ps.-Pla., Alc. I, 116b; Diog. L. 3, 61; Philo, Virt. 170, Decal. 43; Jos., Ant. 12, 156 al.; cp. Ath. 25, 2. As epistolary formula farewell in POxy 115, 12; 120, 27; 527, 9; 822; PGen 59, 24; 2 Macc 9:19). This sense is poss. in Ac 15:29, but do well, i.e. act correctly or rightly gives a better sense and is supported by the Vulgate, Armenian and Coptic transl. (so Simonides, Fgm. 4, 10 D.2; X., Mem. 3, 9, 14; Ps.-Pla., Eryx. 393e; Epict. 4, 6, 20; Artem. 2, 3 p. 86, 13; M. Ant. 3, 13; Philo, Mut. Nom. 197; Jos., Ant. 4, 286; Just., A I, 28, 3. Further support is gained from recognition of the appropriateness of the phrase in Ac 15:23–29 as an official document transmitted from one group to another in the diplomatic format used, e.g., in IMagnMai 91d, which concludes 8–10 with a related grammatical structure: εὖ οὖν ποιήσετε [τ]ὸν [ἔπαινον|Σωσικλείου]ς καὶ τὰς δεδομένας αὐτῷ τιμὰς εὐνόως ἀποδεξά[μενοι ἔρρω|σθε]=‘you will do well in receiving the commendation of Sosicles and the honors awarded him. Farewell.’ εὖ πράσσειν thus expresses a fundamental feature in the reciprocity system that ran through Gr-Rom. society: recipients of a benefit ‘act correctly’ by reciprocating in some way); sim. IEph 4:2 and ISm 11:3 require some such rendering as do right. ἵνα εὖ σοι γένηται that you may prosper Eph 6:3 (cp. Ex 20:12; Dt 5:16—Gen 12:13; Dt 4:40; TestJob 46:9; ParJer 7:9). εὖ ἔχειν πρός τινα be well-disposed or gracious to someone Hs 9, 10, 7.
② pert. to meeting a standard of performance, well done! excellent! abs. as interjection (Ps.-X., Cyneg. 6, 20 Rühl v.l.) Mt 25:21, 23; Lk 19:17 v.l. (for εὖγε).—DELG s.v. ἐύ. M-M.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 401–402). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Does this prove universalism?

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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