Does the Mandelbrot Set prove the Mind of God behind what we see.

JesusFollowerForever · Mar 2, 2024

stevevw said:
The Mandelbrot Set is a complex Mathmatical equation which seems to reveal infinite patterns in Math. It also is known for containing Fractals, the Fibonacci Sequence and Pi (Golden Circle.

It seems when all the numbers in the Mandelbrot Set are given a point of colour they form an unusual pattern which was a surpirse to Mathmaticians.

These patterns add up perfectly containing Fibonacci Sequences that can go on forever creating more and more complex patterns that are self similar in that the same Mandelbrot patterns repeats forever spurning out new patterns that become Mandelbrot patterns. This seems to be beyond what any human could have compreheneded or created.

The facinating thing is these patterns are seen in nature, in some flowers like Sun flowers and vegetables like the Cauliflower, on Pine cones, branches and leaves of trees, in river systems, coast lines, snow flakes, lightening bolts and spiral galaxies.

Is this a sign of some underlying Mind behind nature. Is Math discovered or invented or both. Why does the universe and nature fit so well with Math and how is it that we as intelligent beings are designed to know this.

To answer the question of the O.P., Yes it does and all we see with out own eyes, the high organization of matter that cannot spontaneously appear, the laws of thermodynamics are clear on this, order cannot come from chaos, if a system is left on it's own it tends to go towards chaos, the fact that life remains on this earth and complexity is increasing is alone the proof of the existence of GOD. the beauty in the complexity of life we see in us, fauna, flora the universe is also proof. GOD is everything everywhere.

Hans Blaster · Mar 2, 2024

stevevw said:
So I could imagine another universe with different physical constants including gravity where perhaps the force is stronger and this slows time down compared to our universe. If the physical constants are different then so is gravity and therefore as stronger gravity slows time then a universe with a stronger force of gravity will have a different time to us.

The "slower time" in a curved spacetime ("stronger gravity") only matters in the strong gravity limit. Nearly everywhere (ie, not black holes or neutron stars) is under the weak gravity limit and it takes some very fine measurements to even detect the effect. Changing the gravitational constant by some wouldn't change that impact from nothing near planets, etc.

Hans Blaster · Mar 2, 2024

carloagal said:
Are not animals, are human tissues created in a consacrated host.

The consecrated host is made of wheat. (bland wheat, but wheat)

Ophiolite · Mar 2, 2024

JesusFollowerForever said:
To answer the question of the O.P., Yes it does and all we see with out own eyes, the high organization of matter that cannot spontaneously appear, the laws of thermodynamics are clear on this, order cannot come from chaos, if a system is left on it's own it tends to go towards chaos, the fact that life remains on this earth and complexity is increasing is alone the proof of the existence of GOD. the beauty in the complexity of life we wee in us, fauna, flora the universe is also proof. GOD is everything everywhere.

Is the Earth a closed system? If your answer is "no" do you see the problem that creates for your argument?

JesusFollowerForever · Mar 2, 2024

Ophiolite said:
Is the Earth a closed system? If your answer is "no" do you see the problem that creates for your argument?

I have a feeling that no matter what I write or explain will be wrong so, so long and good luck. just gave my opinion and i stick with it.

stevevw · Mar 2, 2024

JesusFollowerForever said:
To answer the question of the O.P., Yes it does and all we see with out own eyes, the high organization of matter that cannot spontaneously appear, the laws of thermodynamics are clear on this, order cannot come from chaos, if a system is left on it's own it tends to go towards chaos, the fact that life remains on this earth and complexity is increasing is alone the proof of the existence of GOD. the beauty in the complexity of life we see in us, fauna, flora the universe is also proof. GOD is everything everywhere.

What struck me in watching a video on the BB by mainstream science was how the scientist saying that we can trace the evolution of the universe and life back to a single point and that this point was highly ordered and 'they don't know how that high order got there'.

As you said everything is heading towards entropy. So this implies that everything began highly ordered and all the ingredients for our universe and intelligent conscious life was in the order when it exploded into existence.

That itself speaks of something beyond the material ingredients was involved. Some order and laws that were around to govern the evolution of our universe and for intelligent conscious life to come into being.

stevevw · Mar 2, 2024

Hans Blaster said:
The "slower time" in a curved spacetime ("stronger gravity") only matters in the strong gravity limit. Nearly everywhere (ie, not black holes or neutron stars) is under the weak gravity limit and it takes some very fine measurements to even detect the effect. Changing the gravitational constant by some wouldn't change that impact from nothing near planets, etc.

But if there was another universe with a stronger gravity constant this will effect time compared to our universe I would imagine.

Kylie · Mar 3, 2024

stevevw said:
I suppose any paper that proposes a multiverse will do for that. So I would imagine String theory.

The concept of a multiverse is not new, but string theory provides a possible framework for its existence. The theory suggests that our universe is just one “brane” or “membrane” in a higher-dimensional space, known as the “bulk.” Other branes or membranes could exist in the bulk, each with its universe. This would mean an infinite number of parallel universes, each with different physical laws and constants and each with its version of reality.

Supporters of the multiverse theory argue that it is a logical implication of string theory and that it could be tested through observations of the cosmic microwave background or the detection of gravitational waves.

https://zainabmosunmola.medium.com/string-theory-and-the-multiverse-e31eceba1495

So if the Multiverse is true then its obvious that there are other universes with time and that at least 1 if not many came about before ours did and therefore so did time exist before ours did.

This depends on time being a characteristic that exists OUTSIDE our universe so that other universes in the multiverse can exist before or after ours.

You have provided no evidence to support this.

stevevw said:
This paper is an introduction to String Theory but its over my head.
Introduction to String Theory

https://math.berkeley.edu/~kwray/papers/string_theory.pdf

So if you don't even know if it supports your position, why did you post it?

By the way, I did a quick CTRL-F to see where it said the word "time." There were 269 times that word was used, and it was nearly always being used as part of the term "spacetime." It was also used as part of the word "sometimes," and it was used in the sense of "this times that" or "such-and-such happened 20 times." It was never used to describe time in other universes. I also did a CTRL-F for the terms "Universe" and "multiverse", and both were not mentioned at all.

stevevw said:
So perhaps Wiki can help as it explains things for the layperson.
String theory

String theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And where exactly does that wiki article discuss how string theory suggests time exists outside the confines of our universe?

stevevw said:
Actually its Eternal Inflation Theory which is different as Inflation Theory as it the universe continues to expand after the Big Bang.

According to eternal inflation, the inflationary phase of the universe's expansion lasts forever throughout most of the universe. Because the regions expand exponentially rapidly, most of the volume of the universe at any given time is inflating. Eternal inflation, therefore, produces a hypothetically infinite multiverse, in which only an insignificant fractal volume ends inflation.

Eternal inflation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Actually just as the above link states infinite number of parallel universes, each with different physical laws and constants and each with its version of reality.

Okay, so this theory would suggest a multiverse. That doesn't prove that any of the other universes within that multiverse have time.

stevevw said:
So if there are other universes then they must have time. Unless our universe was the very first universe then some of those universes had time before our universe.

Why must they have time?

stevevw said:
I don't know about that. In the movie Interstella there was the part where after they went through the worm hole to another part of the universe where gravity was a lot stronger and this meant after only spending a few hours there when they came back years had gone by. This was evidently based on real science.

The Science of 'Interstellar' Explained (Infographic)

Wormhole travel across the universe and supergiant black holes are just some of the wonders seen in the film 'Interstellar.' Here's how it works.

www.space.com

So I could imagine another universe with different physical constants including gravity where perhaps the force is stronger and this slows time down compared to our universe. If the physical constants are different then so is gravity and therefore as stronger gravity slows time then a universe with a stronger force of gravity will have a different time to us.

Yeah, don't get your science lessons from Hollywood.

stevevw said:
Ah you want those exact words. So lets break it down.

Do you agree that a Multiverse or Paraelle universe is theorectically possible according to some theories like String Theory or Eternal Inflation Theory.

What exactly do you mean by "parallel universe?" Are you talking about a branching timeline sort of thing?

Ophiolite · Mar 3, 2024

JesusFollowerForever said:
I have a feeling that no matter what I write or explain will be wrong so, so long and good luck. just gave my opinion and i stick with it.

If you choose not to participate in a discussion within the framework of a discussion forum it raises the question of why one would choose to post in a discussion forum. It's a little frustrating.
I welcome challenges to my understanding of the world and I'm sorry you apparently do not share that same passion to search for truth, or Truth, or "truth". I'll try to remeber your name so as not to disturb you with questions in the future. Cheers.

JesusFollowerForever · Mar 3, 2024

Kylie said:
This depends on time being a characteristic that exists OUTSIDE our universe so that other universes in the multiverse can exist before or after ours.

You have provided no evidence to support this.

So if you don't even know if it supports your position, why did you post it?

By the way, I did a quick CTRL-F to see where it said the word "time." There were 269 times that word was used, and it was nearly always being used as part of the term "spacetime." It was also used as part of the word "sometimes," and it was used in the sense of "this times that" or "such-and-such happened 20 times." It was never used to describe time in other universes. I also did a CTRL-F for the terms "Universe" and "multiverse", and both were not mentioned at all.

And where exactly does that wiki article discuss how string theory suggests time exists outside the confines of our universe?

Okay, so this theory would suggest a multiverse. That doesn't prove that any of the other universes within that multiverse have time.

Why must they have time?

Yeah, don't get your science lessons from Hollywood.

What exactly do you mean by "parallel universe?" Are you talking about a branching timeline sort of thing?

just to answer one of your question abourt time, this is dependent on matter, no matter no time, when GOD created matter time appeared they are both linked.

partinobodycular · Mar 3, 2024

JesusFollowerForever said:
just to answer one of your question abourt time, this is dependent on matter, no matter no time, when GOD created matter time appeared they are both linked.

But this implies an obvious Catch-22. Specifically, that there was a time... T1, when there was no matter, which was followed by a time... T2, when there was matter. But this requires change, and change is the measure time. Hence the creation of time, required time... T1 followed by T2. Either that, or there never was a time when there was no matter.

So given two possibilities, one of which involves an obvious contradiction, the answer would seem to be that there never was a time when there was no matter. You've simply confused a "per accidens" cause with a "per se" cause.

Hans Blaster · Mar 3, 2024

stevevw said:
But if there was another universe with a stronger gravity constant this will effect time compared to our universe I would imagine.

If it did we'll never know about it.

Wait, wait, no it wouldn't. The gravitational constant doesn't affect time.

stevevw · Mar 4, 2024

Hans Blaster said:
If it did we'll never know about it.

Wait, wait, no it wouldn't. The gravitational constant doesn't affect time.

I thought the strength of gravity could effect time and slow it. Planets close to a black hole would experience stronger gravity and thuse slower time.

But I don't know whether the gravitational constant could vary in another universe. If the physicsal constants can vary in other universes within a multiverse then why not gravity. Even if the force varied a fraction it may cause that universe to have differing orbits, speeds and time. Perhaps a hypothetical but maybe one that is possible within a multiverse.

Time and the multiverse
Once grown, each universe can eventually give birth to new universes, which arise due to quantum fluctuations in the presence of vacuum energy. These universes have arrows of time pointing in different directions, so, in some universes, time could actually run backwards.
https://plus.maths.org/content/time-and-multiverse#:~:text=Once%20grown%2C%20each%20universe%20can,time%20could%20actually%20run%20backward

Hans Blaster · Mar 4, 2024

stevevw said:
I thought the strength of gravity could effect time and slow it. Planets close to a black hole would experience stronger gravity and thuse slower time.

But I don't know whether the gravitational constant could vary in another universe. If the physicsal constants can vary in other universes within a multiverse then why not gravity. Even if the force varied a fraction it may cause that universe to have differing orbits, speeds and time. Perhaps a hypothetical but maybe one that is possible within a multiverse.

Strong curvature from gravity causes "time to slow", but most of the Universe is not under strong gravity. Even the gravity of Earth only dilates time by about 45 parts per million. In a Universe with double the gravitational constant, that effect would be larger, but the whole of that universe would not be affected.

sjastro · Mar 4, 2024

stevevw said:
I thought the strength of gravity could effect time and slow it. Planets close to a black hole would experience stronger gravity and thuse slower time.

But I don't know whether the gravitational constant could vary in another universe. If the physicsal constants can vary in other universes within a multiverse then why not gravity. Even if the force varied a fraction it may cause that universe to have differing orbits, speeds and time. Perhaps a hypothetical but maybe one that is possible within a multiverse.

Time and the multiverse
Once grown, each universe can eventually give birth to new universes, which arise due to quantum fluctuations in the presence of vacuum energy. These universes have arrows of time pointing in different directions, so, in some universes, time could actually run backwards.
https://plus.maths.org/content/time-and-multiverse#:~:text=Once%20grown%2C%20each%20universe%20can,time%20could%20actually%20run%20backward

This is where a knowledge of mathematics is essential to understand why time dilation due to gravity is a local effect and not a universal effect.
The Schwarzschild metric describes the local curvature of space due to gravity and time dilation due to gravity is determined as follows:

This equation shows if M/r₂ > M/r₁ then dτ₂ < dτ₁ where the clock at r₂ shows a smaller reading than the clock at r₁ in a given interval dt.
This is interpreted to mean the clock at the smaller radius runs more slowly than the other as it sits deeper in the gravitational field.
Note that r₁ and r₂ represent local scales not cosmological scales.

Does the Mandelbrot Set prove the Mind of God behind what we see.

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