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Does the Mandelbrot Set prove the Mind of God behind what we see.

partinobodycular

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Friend, its a model. You even said so yourself above .. then just completely ignored that important observation .. why?

Because I'm doing some classic 'Woo' here. Please don't interrupt my woo-ing with reason and logic, it disrupts the flow.
 
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BeyondET

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It's like do you believe fire can burn you? people can tell you it does a belief but until you experience it for yourself either seeing or feeling fire burn your skin. When you do It's no longer a belief base but reality based. When something happens that isn't natural the only word to describe it is supernatural.
 
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SelfSim

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.. When something happens that isn't natural the only word to describe it is supernatural.
There's not a day goes by thesedays, where I don't look at somethin' and say: 'That ain't natural .. right there!

Y'know .. like people worshipping their dogs and calling them their children, Harley ridin' bikers passing by my window with their open exhausts at full screamin' pitch, the look on people's faces when I'm forced into having to run up escalators the wrong way because some dork has taken the 'up' escalator out of action and not frozen the motion of the other one, lazy idiots parking on sidewalks or on blind corners .. the list is endless and I have never once invoked 'Supernatural' .. in spite of the temptation to do so!
 
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carloagal

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Yes This Eucharic Miracles debunked Darwin evolution theory because Mark Isaak said that evolution can be debunked if a complex organism was being observed in act of creation by a supernatural identity like the Eucharistic that is the corpe of Jesus. Evolution is debunked.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Umm. No.

Do you know anything about evolution? I have my doubts.
 
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carloagal

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Umm. No.

Do you know anything about evolution? I have my doubts.
According to Wikipedia said hat Evolution could be disproved many times even if we can observed an organism could be created supernaturally or spontaneously.
 
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Hans Blaster

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According to Wikipedia said hat Evolution could be disproved many times even if we can observed an organism could be created supernaturally or spontaneously.

I don't see how making what is essentially a bit of meat disproves the diversification and adaptation of organisms into new species.

This would be the equivalent of saying "lab grown meat" disproves evolution:

Lab-Grown Meat Approved for Sale: What You Need to Know
 
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carloagal

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Evolution could be disproved if Jesus created alive human heart tissue in the Eucharistic with white blood cells without any sort of evolution process.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Evolution could be disproved if Jesus created alive human heart tissue in the Eucharistic with white blood cells without any sort of evolution process.

Serious question: What do you think evolution is? A brief description, please, without looking it up.
 
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stevevw

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Meaning comes from making and testing models under the auspices of the rules of logic, or from simply choosing beliefs, (eg: @stevevw chooses the latter).
But I don't think belief is just woo and we can use arguements for why phenomenal belief can be a true source of knowledge about the world.
 
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stevevw

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Thats a good analogy, I like that. Except I am quite happy living on the other side primarily, in the Woo even though it may often be actual Woo and then know that there is also the non Woo world as a backdrop. So long as you keep in mind the non Woo realities then I think its more fun in navigating the Woo world lol.

I some ways I think science is dabbling in woo as all great dicoveries have come from thinking outside the box at even implausable ideas to begin with. I agree I don't think we will ever know the true makeup of reality or beyond. I think it was Hawking that said once we know the theory of Everything we will know the mind of God.

But as I mentioned its not necessarily about any specific idea that is the answer but that it requires a paradigm shift in thinking as to how we will be able to understand better even the type of questions to ask to move forward beyond the scientific materialist paradigm. Like from classical physics to QP but even more so.
 
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partinobodycular

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You're probably right, and our pondering of the 'woo' may have simply been the first step, like the one that Einstein took when he imagined himself riding on a photon. The next step for Einstein was to figure out what reality would look like if the speed of light was fixed, as opposed to if it wasn't. And then the third step was to figure out how to set up a test to see if his hypothesis of a fixed speed was actually correct.

So you and I have done what lots of people do, we've taken the first step, we've pondered the 'woo', the next step is to figure out what the difference would be between a reality in which that quantum field is just a field, and one in which it's the advent of consciousness. If there's no difference at all, then there would seemingly be no way to test the idea, and the whole exercise would be somewhat pointless.

So here's the question: what difference would there be between a reality in which that field is just a field, and one in which it's the advent of consciousness?

One possible difference you've already alluded to... our reality is the only reality, and therefore the law of probability suggests that this didn't happen by chance. But how do you test the premise that this reality is the only reality? And then how do you disprove the counterargument that the nature of quantum fields is such that they will always produce realities like this one?

Yeah, now we can appreciate why Einstein was stumped by QM. Visualizing riding on a photon was a piece of cake compared to trying to figure out the ins and outs of Quantum Mechanics, or perhaps it's like you say, we need a paradigm shift in our way of thinking.

Of course there's another possibility, but it requires an even deeper dive into the 'Woo'.
 
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Mountainmike

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Serious question: What do you think evolution is? A brief description, please, without looking it up.
It depends who you speak to.
So I throw it back at you. What do you mean by Evolution? A brief description without looking it up please.

The answer is the name Evolution refers to a mush of ideas depending on context. There is no single theory, hypothesis or conjecture.
For some it is common descent. However that is unprovable and untestable so is not even a valid hypothesis..

For others it is defined in molecular biological process, but the common definition of allele change does not even mention progression Just change! And since it is a complete blur before complex life - the genetic structure of the first cells is a complete unknown - it is not a complete idea anyway.

So the idea "all life came from evolution" , particulary blind watchmaker style is a faith statement not a scientific statement.
Since nobody has any idea what first life was or how it came to be.


So it is all about context.
In the context of this...

For Darwin HIS definition is clear by his falsification criterion. For him it was progressive small change.
"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."
So that is Darwins definition.

In the multiple forensically analysed eucharistic miracles, where once was bread came recently living Cardiac tissue, so it is evidence in disproving darwins theory. Heart tissue from bread does not fit even the biggest stretch of Darwins evoution theory.
Even if it was only five times, (rather than an occasional window on a more general substance change) one is enough to disprove darwin

So I repeat the question out of interest, not intent to argue. What is YOUR definition of the word "evolution" that seems to have so many meanings to so many people?
 
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Mountainmike

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On the wider issues, the ego clashes of some senior academics is breathtaking. It really does not helps science one bit.

In the UK the antipathy between the Oxford and Imperial epidemiologists undoubtedly affected the projection, when both should work together for the common good they worked against each other. Or getting francis collins to shake ventners hand to use an american example! .
The shroud dating was sacrificed on the ego clash between the new kid on the block Halls at Oxford, and the (far better qualified) old guard at Harwell pushed out. Then the utter disdain of Gove for everyone else did the rest.. Gove condemns himself by his own hand. You should read his emails , they are a disgrace to science.



Hardly. I have no problem uncovering frauds or referring to them as such. This is quite common, if not universal.

This deserves special mention.

First because it is an abberation of scientific process: You can only investigate and accept the evidence which every way it points.
You cannot only consider your role as uncovering fraud or assume fraud without biassing your entire outlook. It is part of what destroyed the shroud dating. An unscientific mentality.

It also illustrates an attitude problem you have demonstrated here...
. I have little doubt in your day job, you are objective.
I actually respect you from past posting.
But You are certainly not objectivge around phenomena with a religious dimension.

By way of example.
In arizona there is a full size manikin of the victim of the shroud and a full size shroud replica. There were measurements taken in 1978 that showed the basic body morphology.

Along came Kylie 2 or 3 years ago with a piece of pseudoscience ( which name is too good for what she did..) , using an uncalibrated doll, convincing herself the shroud did not fit the head of the doll
"ergo the shroud was a fraud" . A CGI rendering was there to convince doubters in our video world ignoring the fact the CGI was based on the same misrepresentation. .
And yet real science had already proved this argument bunk decades ago. Lifesize replicas prove it fits!
Yet Kylie had failed to even look it up.

My problem is i am certain you "liked" her post at the time, about which I was gobsmacked although I said little
Presumably because you "Like" the conclusion. But there was no science , it was bunk.
Why did you "Like" it?

You are not alone. That is an attitude problem amongst many atheists studying phenomena with religious over tones.
It is why the real science of the srhoud gains little traction.
And as for "peer review" it is a joke. A method of "copying" the shroud by Garlaschelli passed peer review in a technical journal with chemistry aspect. None of the reviewers seemingly noticed there is no pigment on the shroud, the mark is not pigment it is a thin layer dehydration oxidation of cellulose. So Garlaschelli failed even basic scientific integrity. That paper got linked here as "evidence"

For sure there are also pious frauds and wishful thinking. Indeed many frauds.
They anger me, because they serve only to cloud the overall picture.
I have no problem that Civattecchia bleeding statue was proven a fraud by DNA. Good riddance.
I equally have no problem that Cochambamba bleeding statue passed every test of authenticity thrown at it.

But a scientist must learn to discard all wishful thinking.

The original sturp team did. And all but the fraudulent dating points at early holy land origin of a crucifixion victim.
Even michael tite who botched the dating management so badly now admits it is a crucified man not a fake!

But as Mark Twain said. "A lie will fly around the whole world while the truth is getting its boots on"
The fraudulent daters sabotaged research for a decade, because they went in assuming it was a fraud, then had the mother of all crises when the shroud would not give them a homogeneous date. So they fiddled it, then hid the raw data.
I hope you have utter contempt for them.
 
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SelfSim

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What yeast and cardiomyocytes share: ultradian oscillatory redox mechanisms of cellular coherence and survival:
Its not surprising your so-called 'scientific researchers could also have been duped in their so-called 'forensic studies', by the evolutionary conferred similarities of the two respective cell types.
 
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Hans Blaster

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It depends who you speak to.
Let's see. I was in an exchange with a specific poster, used the second person singular pronoun, and there was clearly a disconnect in understanding, so who do you (2nd person, singlar) think I (1st person singular) was talking to?
So I throw it back at you. What do you mean by Evolution? A brief description without looking it up please.
Since there is not conversation that is broken and needs clarification, this is pointless.
The answer is the name Evolution refers to a mush of ideas depending on context.
A mush you (2nd person, singlar) say. Sigh. I would say that evolution is not just a single claim but a network of them.
There is no single theory, hypothesis or conjecture.
For some it is common descent.
That is one component usually included in modern evolutionary theory.
However that is unprovable and untestable so is not even a valid hypothesis..
Common decent is the *best* demonstrated part of evolutionary theory. The genetic evidence is extremely strong for common decent.
For others it is defined in molecular biological process, but the common definition of allele change does not even mention progression Just change!
Evolution doesn't proscribe a "progression", so yes the change in allele frequencies in a population is one aspect of general evolution theory and what biologists are referring to when they say a population has evolved. (Remember that base word evolution is just change.)
And since it is a complete blur before complex life - the genetic structure of the first cells is a complete unknown - it is not a complete idea anyway.
It is not necessary to know the genetic structure of any particular organism for evolution to be complete idea. The standard evolution theory doesn't break down at the first reproducing organisms, it only starts then. (It is not a theory of the origin of life.)
So the idea "all life came from evolution" , particulary blind watchmaker style is a faith statement not a scientific statement.
It would be a gross misstatement as evolution covers the change and diversification of life, not it's origin. This is what the other poster seems to not understand.
Since nobody has any idea what first life was or how it came to be.
As do you (2nd person, singlar).
So it is all about context.
In the context of this...

For Darwin HIS definition is clear by his falsification criterion.
Oh, so there are falsification criteria. So much for your previous claim.
Going for a classic quote mine, I see. Darwin continued: " But I can find out no such case." Here's the whole paragraph:

http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?viewtype=side&itemID=F373&pageseq=207

It isn't spontaneous transformation of dead plant cells into human flesh. You are off topic as was the poster I was replying to.
 
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carloagal

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Sì invece, perché nei Miracoli Eucaristici
Yes instead because in the Eucharistic Miracles we have the creation in supernaturaly way of complex organism like human heart muscle tissue in the bread, the Eucharistic created supernaturally without evolutionary process.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Is a heart an organism? Is a bit of tissue an organism? Where does tissue normally come from?
 
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carloagal

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Il cuore è un organismo? Un pezzetto di tessuto è un organismo? Da dove proviene normalmente il tessuto?
Of course human heart miocardium muscle tissue is a complex organs. It come from a consacated host in all 5 eucharistic miracles.
 
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