Does the Divinity of Christ really matter?

catwoman2 · Jun 25, 2006

Jesus claimed to be God; He was found guilty of blasphemy. If He is not God, He is a liar and liars go to hell. Because then He misrepresented God.

Also, He had to be God to pay for our sins. All descendents of Adam are sinful and therefore unable to pay for the sins of the world. After all, they can't even pay for their own sins!!

Does it matter?????? Do we really have to ask??????????????????????????????

DaveS · Jun 25, 2006

Also, He had to be God to pay for our sins. All descendents of Adam are sinful and therefore unable to pay for the sins of the world. After all, they can't even pay for their own sins!!

Well actually Jesus is/was considered to be both 100% human AND 100% God. He had to be baptised by John to remove original sin.

Debi1967 · Jun 25, 2006

DaveS said:
My FAITH is one of love for Jesus, not for the beliefs of a group of people sat down to discuss just exactly what Christianity is so that it would succeed as an organisation.

I would also like to point out that Christ died for us so that we all may live - do you think He would be so petty as to look through our theological folder and condemn you for getting something wrong even though you may love like love has never loved before?

We are going back to that mountain moving again.

Christianity is not an organization, what gave you this idea? Because some people here vie between one another is that it?

Christ predicted that Brother would turn against Brother in His name, and are you not doing the same thing? Is it not the same thing to come in here ranting about how wrong the rest of us are therefore are you not turned against us?

We are all believers in the anem of Christ and what that means, and part of that meaning is written out for us plainly by the Apostle John in the Book of John chapter 1 verse 1
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.

Do you know who the Word is in this verse? It is Christ... In the beginning was Christ, and Christ was with God, and Christ was God.

Christ is God, He is Divine and it is a fundamental teaching. The apostles taught this and left record of it in the Bible so that we may know it to be truth. Does it matter? Yes it matters, because God died for our sins so that all of mankind MAY live.

God also gave to us Free Will, so that we can either accept or reject Christ. Some will accept Christ and some will reject Christ.

Let us see what Christ Himself had to say...

Mat 25:31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty.
Mat 25:32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry and fed thee: thirsty and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 Or when did we see thee a stranger and took thee in? Or naked and covered thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison and came to thee?
Mat 25:40 And the king answering shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
Mat 25:41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty and you gave me not to drink.
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you took me not in: naked and you covered me not: sick and in prison and you did not visit me.
Mat 25:44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to thee?
Mat 25:45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen: I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Now do you know who the Sheep signify and who the goats signify?

The sheep signify the Righteous Class, and the Goats signify those that are unclean or unrighteous in God's eyes.

When we God to Heaven and we are to be Judged by Him, we can see here that there will be many that will say haven't I done this in your name and that in your name and God, Christ, will still say to them, Get away from me I never knew you!

Therefore yes, God did die for all mankind but it is still up to us to follow God in His path of Righteousness. He left us Doctrines and Morals to live by and these things we must live by. Otherwise we risk the wrath of God... For as God is Kind Loving and Merciful, it is also biblical that God is also JUST.

Melethiel · Jun 25, 2006

He had to be baptised by John to remove original sin.

Where do you get that idea?

Debi1967 · Jun 25, 2006

DaveS said:
Well actually Jesus is/was considered to be both 100% human AND 100% God. He had to be baptised by John to remove original sin.

NO this is where you are quite mistaken....

He was immaculately kept because He is God. God could not have born any sin of any kind even if He took on human form. Jesus was the God Man and because He was both Human and God this is what kept Him from Original sin.

This would mean that Jesus was not God after all because he needed to be cleansed of the one thing that God should never have to be cleansed of because He is perfect. Thus making Him a perfect human as well.

Jesus was baptized to fulfill prophecy. Jesus was baptized to show us the way. Jesus was baptized to come out into public view. Jesus was baptized to show us that baptism is significant to us as Christians.

We follow the examples set by our Lord Christ. He showed us the way and we follow the example set by Him. Jesus had no need to be baptized, Jesus had no need to actually be born and raised as a human either. He did all these things to show us a path. From start to finish, to start a New covenant... To give it Birth ....

catwoman2 · Jun 25, 2006

Original Sin is not an inherent part of humanity. Remember Adam and Eve?? They were born sinless---holy.

Since you believe Christ was a sinner (which He would be if He had original sin), then tell me ONE sin He committed!!!

ONE SIN!!!

You see, if anybody has one single sin in them, he/she is destined for hell. And God is holy, without sin. Christ is God and therefore holy. He told His enemies to point out ONE SIN He committed. They couldn't.

I'm waiting.......................................

DaveS said:
Well actually Jesus is/was considered to be both 100% human AND 100% God. He had to be baptised by John to remove original sin.

OrthodoxyUSA · Jun 25, 2006

catwoman2 said:
Original Sin is not an inherent part of humanity. Remember Adam and Eve?? They were born sinless---holy.

Since you believe Christ was a sinner (which He would be if He had original sin), then tell me ONE sin He committed!!!

ONE SIN!!!

You see, if anybody has one single sin in them, he/she is destined for hell. And God is holy, without sin. Christ is God and therefore holy. He told His enemies to point out ONE SIN He committed. They couldn't.

I'm waiting.......................................

Pssst.... Adam and Ever were CREATED sinless, not born sinless. (I knew what you meant though.)

Your quite correct about everything else....

Forgive me....

catwoman2 · Jun 25, 2006

lol

that's funny! thanks for the correction!!!!

Stinker · Jun 25, 2006

The original followers of Jesus (which had first followed John the Baptist) are known as the Ebionites. They did not believe that He possessed more divinity than anyone else before He was water baptized . After His baptism is when they believed that He received divinity without measure. (Mk.1:9-11)

This makes sense because even His kinfolk saw no evidence of His being fully divine growing up together. They even thought that they needed to cover for Jesus by saying He was mentally disturbed. "And He came home, and the crowd gathered again, to such an extent that they could not even eat a meal. When His own people heard of this, they went out to take custody of Him, for they were saying; "He has lost His senses." (Mk.3:20-21)

Debi1967 · Jun 25, 2006

Stinker said:
The original followers of Jesus (which had first followed John the Baptist) are known as the Ebionites. They did not believe that He possessed more divinity than anyone else before He was water baptized . After His baptism is when they believed that He received divinity without measure. (Mk.1:9-11)

This makes sense because even His kinfolk saw no evidence of His being fully divine growing up together. They even thought that they needed to cover for Jesus by saying He was mentally disturbed. "And He came home, and the crowd gathered again, to such an extent that they could not even eat a meal. When His own people heard of this, they went out to take custody of Him, for they were saying; "He has lost His senses." (Mk.3:20-21)

Did this however make Him any less Divine because some did not believe until suh time as they saw with their own eyes that He was? NO! AGAIN!

hlaltimus · Jun 25, 2006

The divinity of Christ couldn't be more important. When Christ physically died, He lost that life and then could not rise by virtue of the life which he had then forfeited. If He, Christ, had not been truly divine at this point, He would have then been locked up forever in the grave with no possibility of escape for either himself or us. Since He also possessed an independant Divine life with which to rise by, this was no problem for Him. His divine life also attached an infinite value by way of association to His human life, (which was lost,) and made that loss, therefore, of infinite redemptive value. In other words, the loss of that one human life was then of such immeasurable value that it could easily redeem every sinner that ever lived, potentially speaking, even though He was just one, single man. All of this was only possible by His being truly divine. What a Saviour!

DaveS · Jun 26, 2006

Argh! Post storm!

Christianity is not an organization, what gave you this idea? Because some people here vie between one another is that it?

The Church is an organisation and the Nicean Creed was devised so that the Church would all (basically) believe and teach the same theological points. It was so that Christianity would succeed as a religion.

Christ predicted that Brother would turn against Brother in His name, and are you not doing the same thing? Is it not the same thing to come in here ranting about how wrong the rest of us are therefore are you not turned against us?

Are you not turned against me?
It's a case of pot and kettle, I am only trying to bring all those people who are against eachother into some sort of union - although some people don't seem to want this.

Mat 25:31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty.
Mat 25:32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry and fed thee: thirsty and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 Or when did we see thee a stranger and took thee in? Or naked and covered thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison and came to thee?
Mat 25:40 And the king answering shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
Mat 25:41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty and you gave me not to drink.
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you took me not in: naked and you covered me not: sick and in prison and you did not visit me.
Mat 25:44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to thee?
Mat 25:45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen: I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Thanks for the quote Where does it say we have to believe a rigid set of theological beliefs? It does not. Instead it is a teaching of love thy neighbour which is exactly the point I am trying to get across.

I will ask a quick question. Consider a Christian who believes all the right things but does not practice love, how will he attain heaven over someone who does not attain that grade but practices love?

Therefore yes, God did die for all mankind but it is still up to us to follow God in His path of Righteousness. He left us Doctrines and Morals to live by and these things we must live by. Otherwise we risk the wrath of God... For as God is Kind Loving and Merciful, it is also biblical that God is also JUST.

God is also forgiving. I will use my vicar's sermon yesterday to illustrate.

A vicar one day asked his congregation to put their hands up if they knew they were gonig to heaven, many didn't put their hands up but some did.
The reasons that many didn't put their hands up is that they didn't want to be presumptious - there are afterall so many different rules and regulations, what if they had missed a bit of the small print?
The ones that did put their hand up realised though that we aren't perfect - we are human, we make mistakes. If God wanted us to be perfect then it would completely remove the point of Christ's mission - that is the ultimate proof that we cannot be perfect.

NO this is where you are quite mistaken....

He was immaculately kept because He is God. God could not have born any sin of any kind even if He took on human form. Jesus was the God Man and because He was both Human and God this is what kept Him from Original sin.

This would mean that Jesus was not God after all because he needed to be cleansed of the one thing that God should never have to be cleansed of because He is perfect. Thus making Him a perfect human as well.

Jesus was baptized to fulfill prophecy. Jesus was baptized to show us the way. Jesus was baptized to come out into public view. Jesus was baptized to show us that baptism is significant to us as Christians.

We follow the examples set by our Lord Christ. He showed us the way and we follow the example set by Him. Jesus had no need to be baptized, Jesus had no need to actually be born and raised as a human either. He did all these things to show us a path. From start to finish, to start a New covenant... To give it Birth ....

Exactly, to show us a way of life - not to preach rules and regulations.

Original Sin is not an inherent part of humanity. Remember Adam and Eve?? They were born sinless---holy.

Since you believe Christ was a sinner (which He would be if He had original sin), then tell me ONE sin He committed!!!

ONE SIN!!!

You see, if anybody has one single sin in them, he/she is destined for hell. And God is holy, without sin. Christ is God and therefore holy. He told His enemies to point out ONE SIN He committed. They couldn't.

I'm waiting.......................................

Would you like a sin according to the OT or do these no longer apply (even though they did at the time)?

The point of Jesus coming to us was to point out that sins are to be forgiven and to dispell all of the dogma from Judaism (pharisees).

If someone had a single sin on them then they were destined for Hell, yes. However, that is what Christ is for and that was the whole purpose of his death, resurrection and ascension.

The original followers of Jesus (which had first followed John the Baptist) are known as the Ebionites. They did not believe that He possessed more divinity than anyone else before He was water baptized . After His baptism is when they believed that He received divinity without measure. (Mk.1:9-11)

This makes sense because even His kinfolk saw no evidence of His being fully divine growing up together. They even thought that they needed to cover for Jesus by saying He was mentally disturbed. "And He came home, and the crowd gathered again, to such an extent that they could not even eat a meal. When His own people heard of this, they went out to take custody of Him, for they were saying; "He has lost His senses." (Mk.3:20-21)

Which would explain the affirmation of the Baptism where God proclaimed 'You ARE my Son'.

However, you must also remember the incidence with the rabbis of the temple when Jesus was young.

catwoman2 · Jun 26, 2006

"Would you like a sin according to the OT or do these no longer apply (even though they did at the time)?

Show me ONE SIN that Jesus committed.

The point of Jesus coming to us was to point out that sins are to be forgiven and to dispell all of the dogma from Judaism (pharisees).

The point of Jesus'coming was to pay for our sins on the cross and to live a perfect life in our place (passive and active obedience).

If someone had a single sin on them then they were destined for Hell, yes. However, that is what Christ is for and that was the whole purpose of his death, resurrection and ascension."

You said that Jesus had original sin that was taken away up to the time that He was baptized. That means that He was born a sinner and therefore sinned. He was then guilty of sinning before God and needed to pay for His sins. No one except One who is holy can pay the enormous debt that we owe God for our sins.

If Jesus sinned, He was not fit to be our Savior

You are saying that my Lord and Savior was guilty of sin. That is absolutely outrageous!!!!That is blasphemy! Jesus kept all of God's Law perfectly in our stead because we could not. For you to say that He did not do this is to deny Him as your Savior. For a sinful man cannot be the Savior of the World.

FOR THE LAST TIME, SHOW ME ONE SIN THAT MY LORD AND SAVIOR COMMITTED....................................................

DaveS · Jun 26, 2006

catwoman2 said:
"Would you like a sin according to the OT or do these no longer apply (even though they did at the time)?

Show me ONE SIN that Jesus committed.

The point of Jesus coming to us was to point out that sins are to be forgiven and to dispell all of the dogma from Judaism (pharisees).

The point of Jesus'coming was to pay for our sins on the cross and to live a perfect life in our place (passive and active obedience).

If someone had a single sin on them then they were destined for Hell, yes. However, that is what Christ is for and that was the whole purpose of his death, resurrection and ascension."

You said that Jesus had original sin that was taken away up to the time that He was baptized. That means that He was born a sinner and therefore sinned. He was then guilty of sinning before God and needed to pay for His sins. No one except One who is holy can pay the enormous debt that we owe God for our sins.

If Jesus sinned, He was not fit to be our Savior

You are saying that my Lord and Savior was guilty of sin. That is absolutely outrageous!!!!That is blasphemy! Jesus kept all of God's Law perfectly in our stead because we could not. For you to say that He did not do this is to deny Him as your Savior. For a sinful man cannot be the Savior of the World.

FOR THE LAST TIME, SHOW ME ONE SIN THAT MY LORD AND SAVIOR COMMITTED....................................................

He consistently worked on the Sabbath, He claimed that He was God (while this was true, it is still a sin by OT laws), he disobeyed his elders (Pharisees) and He most probably ate 'unclean' food as He preached that nothing is unclean.

By OT laws these are all sins - some even ranking against the Ten Commandments.

I personally believe that this requirement for Jesus to be free of Sin is pointless anyway - afterall did he not take on the sins of the entire world and go to Hell because of it? It was only His power as God (or whatever) that allowed Him to defeat Satan and break Hell thus allowing everyone to gain immortal life. People forget that the most important part of Jesus's time actually occured when he was "dead".

Lynn73 · Jun 26, 2006

Anyone who thinks Jesus was a sinner or that His being divine is unimportant surley cannot be understanding the teaching of the word of God. He can't be a sinner and be our Savior. He must be divine to be our Savior. Only our sinless Lord can atone for the sins of the world. It's as simple as that.

OrthodoxyUSA · Jun 26, 2006

DaveS said:
He consistently worked on the Sabbath, He claimed that He was God (while this was true, it is still a sin by OT laws), he disobeyed his elders (Pharisees) and He most probably ate 'unclean' food as He preached that nothing is unclean.

By OT laws these are all sins - some even ranking against the Ten Commandments.

Me thinks you missed the point. He was teaching them that what they believed about the LAW was incorrect.

Christ God is the LAW.

Nothing that he does is SIN.....

SIN is to miss the mark of perfection.... Christ God is perfect.

Forgive me.....

DaveS · Jun 26, 2006

Anyone who thinks Jesus was a sinner or that His being divine is unimportant surley cannot be understanding the teaching of the word of God. He can't be a sinner and be our Savior. He must be divine to be our Savior. Only our sinless Lord can atone for the sins of the world. It's as simple as that.

Then why didn't Mary become our Saviour? I don't tihnk it really matters whether Jesus was sinless or not - his perfection came in the ability to destroy evil and rewrite the Law for love, not dogma.

Me thinks you missed the point. He was teaching them that what they believed about the LAW was incorrect.

Christ God is the LAW.

Nothing that he does is SIN.....

SIN is to miss the mark of perfection.... Christ God is perfect.

Forgive me.....

But He still sinned by todays standrards did he not? Many people still observe OT laws (hence dogma) so that in any position he still sinned by our standard.
By the standards he was/is trying to introduce of course he was/is perfect - He loves, that is all.

OrthodoxyUSA · Jun 26, 2006

DaveS said:
Then why didn't Mary become our Saviour? I don't tihnk it really matters whether Jesus was sinless or not - his perfection came in the ability to destroy evil and rewrite the Law for love, not dogma.

But He still sinned by todays standrards did he not? Many people still observe OT laws (hence dogma) so that in any position he still sinned by our standard.
By the standards he was/is trying to introduce of course he was/is perfect - He loves, that is all.

First, You need to accept that Christ God is God and incapable of SIN. He understood the OT LAW better than they did.... He IS the LAW.

It is True that "they" thought he was sinning.... Is that what you mean?

May I offer you some reading material?

I would love for you to understand better.

On the Incarnation by St. Anthanasius; Why Christ Came, Died and was Resurrected

Forgive me....

DaveS · Jun 26, 2006

OrthodoxyUSA said:
First, You need to accept that Christ God is God and incapable of SIN. He understood the OT LAW better than they did.... He IS the LAW.

It is True that "they" thought he was sinning.... Is that what you mean?

May I offer you some reading material?

I would love for you to understand better.

On the Incarnation by St. Anthanasius; Why Christ Came, Died and was Resurrected

Forgive me....

But God most certainly sinned by OT standards. All I am saying is that "sin" no longer matters - with that all this theology and 'who is right?' argument doesn't really matter either. This is seen by the fact that even God does not seem to care about dogma anymore as He (as Christ) ignored OT rules quite willingly.

OrthodoxyUSA · Jun 26, 2006

DaveS said:
But God most certainly sinned by OT standards. All I am saying is that "sin" no longer matters - with that all this theology and 'who is right?' argument doesn't really matter either. This is seen by the fact that even God does not seem to care about dogma anymore as He (as Christ) ignored OT rules quite willingly.

If the facts don't matter.. then why are you here?

God is not capable of SIN. The OT rulers misunderstood the LAW (Which is Christ God), That is why Christ came to complete it.

God is perfect.... CHRIST IS GOD. Christ is the "LOGOS" (THE WORD OF GOD) See the first chapter of John.

Even if God did something that we considered to be SIN, It would be us that are wrong and he that is right.

He is the creator. What he says and what he does is perfect.

We do not set the bar. He does.

Forgive me....

Does the Divinity of Christ really matter?

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