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Does the cracker REALLY turn into Jesus' flesh?

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Diakoneo

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There is a theological concept held by some that at some point during the observance of the Lord's supper the cracker (or wafer, bread etc.) actually becomes the literal flesh, presence, divinity of Jesus. (Literally His body)

I've lately heard this idea promoted in many different churches.. non-denom, full Gospel, "Christian"..

I have never heard that this was believed in a Baptist church. But I'm wondering what your ideas are on the subject. Does the cracker become the literal body of Christ... like His actual flesh? And since the non-Catholic churches don't perform a mass I'm confused as to at which point exactly the transformation takes place.


I would not take this road myself. I believe that the Bible, and sound interpretation show that this is not so. But I'm wondering what all you folks think?
 

seebs

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I am not sure. I think there is a reasonable case to be made for John 6 being fairly literal. And, after all:

[bible]1 Corinthians 11:23-34[/bible]

"eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body"

Hmm.

I would certainly be wary of this topic; it appears to be one on which it matters what you think.

Disclaimer: I go to a Quaker church. No crackers, no wine, no nothing. I for myself have made the decision that, not properly understanding this topic, it is probably best for me to abstain from Communion until I do understand it; it is my hope that God understands my intent in seeking to avoid acting wrongly.
 
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rural_preacher

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Baptists celebrate the Lord's Supper as a memorial. It is also observed as an ordinance, not a sacrament. The elements (bread and wine) are symbols taken in remembrance of His death.

Luke 22:19, "And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, 'This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me'."

If the bread became His body in a literal (or even mystical) way, that would mean that Jesus is being sacrificed over and over again millions of times around the world year after year.

Hebrews 10:10, "By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Jesus' words in John 6 were to be understood spiritually. He was not suggesting cannibalism even though that is what His audience thought. He clarified His statements to His disciples in verse 63.

John 6:61-63, "When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, 'Does this offend you? What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.'"

Please understand that this is the Baptist position on the Lord's Supper. I know that our Catholic brothers (and some others) disagree. I am not attempting to debate this issue...I'm only presenting the common Baptist position.
 
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Crazy Liz

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Seebs, I'm with you again. One of the reasons I'm in a Friends church right now is to take a break from these arguments. Yet, I joined an Evangelical Friends church during a time when our denomination is trying to reconcile our Evangelical beliefs with our Quaker tradition, and "communion with the elements," as well as water baptism are where these most conflict.

seebs said:
I would certainly be wary of this topic; it appears to be one on which it matters what you think.

Actually, I've been coming more and more to the conclusion that what we think matters a lot less than we think. I am convinced that faith does not consist of holding the correct opinions. Yet I really respect what you have to say. I know churches that practice restrictive communion do so on the basis that they have different beliefs about what it really means.

Personally, I prefer liturgical traditions for communion because the words and procedures are prescribed. It bothers me just about equally to see communion conducted carelessly (as it seems to be in some denominations - I was going to name one, but decided not to) and to see statements of opinion about communion intrude into the service itself. I would prefer to accept something of mystery, acknowledging that none of us really understands it. I like this aspect of the Orthodox and Anglican traditions, which uphold the idea of "real presence," but beyond that say, "It's a mystery." They disagree with the analysis of Aquinas, but also with those, like some of the older Quakers trying to come to terms with the elements by saying, "It's just an object lesson."

I think my opinions are probably pretty close to what Seebs expressed, but I have dropped the idea of needing to have a settled opinion in order to participate. Instead, I am more concerned with two matters: (1) how best to deal with this sacred PRACTICE, given that we have differences of opinion, and (2) what it means to US, as a gathered community of faith, more than what it means to ME, individually. IOW, communion is a communal act. I see too little emphasis on this aspect.

For the Evangelical Friends, I think the key to resolving this issue has to do with seeing the Quaker tradition of abstaining from the physical elements as a protest movement, prophetic in nature. It is similar to the OT prophets bringing God's message, "I hate your your New Moons. I desire justice and mercy, not sacrifice." An individual or congregation should be free to move in and out of this protest mode as necessary, while still acknowledging the "sacramental" norms. IOW, let's just say George Fox was right in starting a movement that abstained from all ritual, but he went too far in saying that God intended for these rituals to be entirely done away with before Christ's return.

These are good questions, and this is where I, as a Quaker-in-process, find myself right now.
 
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seebs

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A friend of mine goes to a Catholic church, and his observation is that, sometimes, it's just a cracker, but sometimes, it really is the flesh of Christ, and there is no point trying to explain it; it really happens and it's a mystery.
 
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Gold Dragon

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Crazy Liz said:
I think my opinions are probably pretty close to what Seebs expressed, but I have dropped the idea of needing to have a settled opinion in order to participate. Instead, I am more concerned with two matters: (1) how best to deal with this sacred PRACTICE, given that we have differences of opinion, and (2) what it means to US, as a gathered community of faith, more than what it means to ME, individually. IOW, communion is a communal act. I see too little emphasis on this aspect.
Awesome perspective Liz. I agree that communion is one of those things where the praxy may be more important than doxy (not that orthodox teaching of communion isn't important). I think our modernist individualism often becomes a stumbling block to good practice of the way Christ may have wanted us to observe communion.
 
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Gold Dragon

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Diakoneo said:
There is a theological concept held by some that at some point during the observance of the Lord's supper the cracker (or wafer, bread etc.) actually becomes the literal flesh, presence, divinity of Jesus. (Literally His body)

I've lately heard this idea promoted in many different churches.. non-denom, full Gospel, "Christian"..

I have never heard that this was believed in a Baptist church. But I'm wondering what your ideas are on the subject. Does the cracker become the literal body of Christ... like His actual flesh? And since the non-Catholic churches don't perform a mass I'm confused as to at which point exactly the transformation takes place.


I would not take this road myself. I believe that the Bible, and sound interpretation show that this is not so. But I'm wondering what all you folks think?
I just want to clarify that in the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist, the "essense" of the bread and the cup have literally become Christ, while the "accidents" (taste, texture, molecular composition, etc) of the bread and the cup are still bread and wine. It is often called a "mystery" how this happens.

I would say that figuring out what does or doesn't happen to the bread and the cup in communion is secondary to the unity with Christ and our community that happens in the practice of communion.
 
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Iollain

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This is something i posted in a Theology thread:

I've token the liberty of stealing this off the MJ forum I thought it was an excellent read.

And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread . . . Leviticus 23:6-8

A Sacred Charge

As the Master reclined at his last Seder with the Twelve Disciples, he took the cup and the unleavened bread and said, "Do this in remembrance of me." The this to which Yeshua referred was the Festival of Unleavened Bread and the Seder meal. We are to remember him whenever we take the elements. How much more so at Passover when he spoke those words!

As his disciples, we are privileged to fulfill his commandment by annually celebrating the Festival of Unleavened Bread in remembrance of him. Our observance of the Feast is not optional for us. Rather it is a sacred charge the Master left in our hands on his last night with us before he suffered.

The command to keep the Appointed Time of Unleavened Bread is an eternal commandment of the Torah. Every year the 15th day of the 1st month on the Biblical Calendar is a High Sabbath marking the beginning of the seven days of Unleavened Bread. The last day of the Festival is also a High Sabbath (Leviticus 23:6-8).

Cleansing out the Leaven

During the seven days of the Festival it is forbidden to be in possession of anything containing leaven. Prior to the Festival all yeast and products containing yeast should be removed from the household. They should be consumed or given away. The sunset which begins the 15th day of the month is the absolute deadline for removing the leaven. One's house should be cleaned to insure that no crumbs of bread or other leavened items are overlooked. Kitchens are thoroughly cleaned. Usually a ritual search for leaven is made the 24 hours prior to the beginning of the festival. The search is done just after dusk with a candle, a wooden spoon, a feather and a piece of linen. If children are present, it is not unusual to plant some crumbs of bread for them to find. Any crumbs or leaven which are found are swept onto the wooden spoon with the feather. Then the wooden spoon, the candle, the feather and the leven are all wrapped tightly together in the linen. The whole "leaven package" is placed outside the house to be burned in the morning.

The Symbolism of Leaven

The search for leaven symbolizes our personal cleansing of home and body from sin. Just as we carefully clean our homes to remove any yeast or leavened bread and we do not spare even the smallest crumb, so too we should search our hearts, deeds and words for any sinful act or attitude which must be removed. Paul writes, "Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast--as you really are. For Messiah, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth." (1st Corinthians 5:6-8) As we search our homes for leaven and our lives for spiritual leaven we should be reminded that we are preparing to come to the Master's table. Paul referred to this when he said, "Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup." (1 Corinthians 11:27,28). In the same way we carefully search our homes, we must also carefully search our hearts.

Traditionally the leaven package is burned at the time of morning prayer on the 14th day of the first month. By Divine coincidence, that is the exact day and hour in which our Master was crucified. He is the one who removes our sin and spiritual leaven.

Born Again Bread

For the duration of the seven days, no product containing yeast can be eaten or brought into the home. It is a commandment to eat unleavened bread (that is matzah) on each of the seven days. There is a deep and spiritual meaning to the ritual of eating only unleavened bread for the seven days of the festival. In ancient times, dough was leavened by adding a starter dough left over from the last batch of bread, much the way sour dough bread is made today. Therefore, a culture of leaven was passed on from loaf to loaf to loaf. The commandment to get rid of all the old leaven and start with new unleavened bread symbolizes a clean break with the past. It is a chance to start over. It is a chance to start fresh. It is like being born again.

Paul tells us to

"Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast. (and to) Keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth." 1 Corinthians 5:7,8

The Body of the Master

Disciples of the Master find and even deeper meaning in the bread. Yeshua took the matzah bread at his Last Seder and said, "This is my body which is for you, do this in remembrance of me." The Unleavened Bread teaches us about the Body of the Master! If we examine a piece of matzah, we will see that it has three peculiar attributes.

1. It is pierced.

2. It is striped.

3. It is flat.

Just as the Unleavened Bread is pierced, Messiah's body was pierced. Just as the the Unleavened Bread is striped, his body was striped and wounded, and just as the unleavened bread is without yeast, making it flat, he was without sin. We find it written in the Scriptures, "They will look upon the one they have pierced," (Zecheriah 12:10) and again, "By his stripes we are healed," (Isaiah 53:5) and again, "Yet he was without sin." (Hebrews 4:15)

The Seder Meal

In Exodus 12, the Torah instructed the children of Israel to celebrate a special feast on the first night of the Festival of Unleavened Bread. On the menu was roasted lamb, bitter herbs and unleavened bread. This meal is called a Pesach Seder. The purpose of this meal was a commemoration. It was a memorial meal to remember the meal eaten in Egypt as the LORD passed over.

'Now this day will be a memorial to you, and you shall celebrate it as a feast to the LORD; throughout your generations . . . (Exodus 12:14)

The Passover Seder meal was given to Israel in order that they should always remember the great redemption from Egypt. It is a way of teaching each subsequent generation the story of Passover. God gave the commandment for this particular feast as a "remembrance." In Judaism to this day, the reason for the Seder meal is to teach the children the story of their redemption from Egypt. (Exodus 12:26,27)

The Passover Seder meal is usually held in one's home with festive foods and guests. Since the destruction of the Temple, lamb is no longer served at a seder, but the bitter herbs and unleavened bread still constitute the main rituals of the evening.

The Last Seder

It was a traditional Passover Seder meal that Yeshua and his disciples celebrated as their Last Supper.

Although the various elements of the Seder have undergone some alterations over the centuries, today's Seder liturgy is not at all unlike what Yeshua and his disciples were doing in that upper room. An ancient Haggadah (Seder meal liturgy) found in the Cairo Genizah dates back to the early centuries of Rabbinic Judaism. In form and content, it is very similar and on many points identical to the Haggadah still in use by Orthodox Judaism. By using the Passover Haggadah as a compass, it is possible for us to reconstruct the "last supper" of Yeshua and his disciples.

The Cup of The Master

When the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him. And He said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God. And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, "Take this and share it among yourselves; for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes." (Luke 22:14-18)

Try to see the large upper room, furnished for Yeshua and his disciples. They are reclining at the table, as is the custom. He takes the cup, and gives thanks. The Greek word translated as "giving thanks" is eucharisteo. From this word, the church has coined the term "Eucharist." In the original context of the Passover Seder, however, the term applies to the words of the Kiddush. The Kiddush is the blessing which began the Passover Seder Meal and the Festival of Unleavened Bread. Kiddush is Hebrew for "sanctification." The Passover, like all the feasts, was to be a "holy" day. Therefore, the Seder is begun with a declaration of the holiness of the day. This kiddush declaration is done over a cup of wine, which is then shared among the participants.

So it was on that night that Yeshua took the cup in his right hand and lifted it for everyone to see. Then he chanted the kiddush. The text of Kiddush in a modern Seder is as follows: "Blessed are You, LORD our God, King of the universe, Who brings forth the fruit of the vine. Blessed are you, LORD our God, King of the universe, Who has chosen us from among all nations, exalted us above all tongues, and sanctified us with His commandments. With love you have given us, O LORD our God, appointed times for gladness, festivals and seasons for rejoicing, this Feast of Unleavened Bread, the season of our deliverance, with love, a sacred rehearsal in remembrance of the departure from Egypt. For you have chosen us, and you have sanctified us from all the nations, and you have given us festivals with gladness as our inheritance. Blessed are You, LORD our God, who sanctifies Israel and the seasons."

As the disciples responded, "Amen," Yeshua drank from the cup and then passed it to his disciples, saying, "Take this and share it among yourselves; for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes."

The Cup of Salvation

In addition to the cup for the Kiddush, the Sages ordained three more cups to be drunk on the eve of Passover. The total four cups of the Seder are meant to correspond to the four expressions of redemption which God spoke to Israel in Exodus 6:6,7. According to the Sages, these four cups of the Passover Seder fulfill the verse: "I will lift up the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD." (Psalm 116:13 and Shemot Midrash Rabbah 6.4) Therefore, all four cups of the Seder meal are collectively called the "Cup of Salvation." The Hebrew word for Salvation is Yeshua.

It is the four Seder cups , "the cup of salvation," that Yeshua took with his disciples when he said, "Do this in remembrance of me."

The Last Seder

Other elements of the Last Supper are also anchored within the rituals of the Passover Seder. The washing of the disciple's feet has a natural compliment in the initial washing ceremony of the Seder. The dipping into the sop, which Yeshua used to point out his betrayer, is a Seder meal ritual. The breaking and sharing of unleavened bread is a Seder ritual. The use of unleavened bread as a ritual substitute for a sacrifice comes from the Seder meal. The table prayers and even the hymn sung at the close of the meal are all regular features of the Seder that find expression in the Gospel's telling of the Last Supper.

When we participate in the annual Passover Seder meal, we have the opportunity to relive the Gospel narratives of the Last Seder of Yeshua and his disciples.

Communion and the Seder

The cup and the bread, which Christianity normally associates with Communion or the Lord's Table, are originally elements taken from this larger context of the Passover Seder meal. It is sad and unfortunate that Christianity has misapprehended the words of the Master. We have assumed that when he said, "Do this in remembrance of me," that he referred only to the cup and the bread. But by putting those words back into the original context, that is the traditional Jewish Seder meal as commanded by God in Egypt, we see a bigger picture.

God had commanded the Appointed Time of Unleavened Bread to be a Memorial of the exodus from Egypt. In Exodus 12, the Torah calls the Festival of Unleavened Bread, "A remembrance." The Master's command was an allusion to the entire meal, even to the entire Festival of Unleavened Bread. Yeshua was not initiating a new "Christian rite" at the last supper. It is not communion, nor is it the host, nor is it a new sacrament. We may celebrate any or all of these rituals which we have derived from the gospels, and it is good that we do! But in the original context, Yeshua said to his disciples, "Do this [Passover Seder/Feast of Unleavened Bread] as a memorial of me." He was not initiating a new "Christian rite"; he was redefining a very old Jewish rite.

A Tragic Loss

Here is the great tragedy of Christianity. Because we believed that all the old vestiges and rituals of "law" were done away with at the cross, we have not kept the words of our Master. He said, "Do this in remembrance of me." While we have faithfully taken the cup and bread in remembrance of our Master, we have failed to enjoy and celebrate the greater context of that bread and cup. In so doing, we have missed much of what the Scriptures want to communicate to us. By ignoring the Festival, we ignored the "substance of the Messiah".


Kehilat Sar Shalom

http://www.christianforums.com/t719358&page=3 here if anyone wants to read from the thread
 
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ZiSunka

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Does the cracker REALLY turn into Jesus' flesh?


I've looked at it, I've tasted it, I've smelled it and I can tell you that I have seen, tasted and smelled bread.

I've even seen it being made, and it is flour, water and olive oil, no flesh whatsoever. And even when there is some left at the end of communion, I have seen it again and it is just bread, no flesh.

Disappointing to some people I suppose, but not to me. I don't need to pretend that it is anything other than what it is. If Christ was satisfied with it being bread, that's good enough for me. I can't find any reference in the Bible to him actually TURNING it into anything else. The statements about, "This is my body" are metaphor, a communication technique that he used repeatedly throughout his ministry. When he actually TURNED water into wine, the Bible goes to great pains to let us know that it was actual wine, but in the case of the Lord's supper, it doesn't say at all that the bread was TURNED into actual flesh. That silence is meaningful. If it had become actual flesh, the Bible would have said so.
 
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ZiSunka

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Gold Dragon said:
I just want to clarify that in the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist, the "essense" of the bread and the cup have literally become Christ, while the "accidents" (taste, texture, molecular composition, etc) of the bread and the cup are still bread and wine. It is often called a "mystery" how this happens.
I intend no disrespect, but I would call that a self-delusion. There's that saying that if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck, it's a duck, not matter what else someone told you it is. If it looks like bread, tastes like bread and feels like bread, it's bread, not flesh.

It's got to be similar to the emporer's new clothes. Only the initiated into the faiths that believe in transubstantiation can "discern" the "essences" over the "accidentals," while the great unwashed protestants like us, can't discern the flesh. When in truth, it's just bread and only when someone tells you you have to believe it's flesh do you "see" it as flesh.

It's how Catholicism differentiates itself and keeps people dependent on it. Since they are able to make the bread into flesh and it is only this flesh-from-bread that can confer grace, you have to keep coming back to the Catholic church to get the grace from them, since no one else has it.
 
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mesue

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Diakoneo said:
There is a theological concept held by some that at some point during the observance of the Lord's supper the cracker (or wafer, bread etc.) actually becomes the literal flesh, presence, divinity of Jesus. (Literally His body)...
This theological concept is called Transubstantion.

Transubstantion - is the change in the substance of bread & wine into the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus while under the appearance of bread and wine.

To not believe this is anathema, in some churches.
 
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Diakoneo

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rural_preacher said:
Baptists celebrate the Lord's Supper as a memorial. It is also observed as an ordinance, not a sacrament. The elements (bread and wine) are symbols taken in remembrance of His death.

Luke 22:19, "And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, 'This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me'."

If the bread became His body in a literal (or even mystical) way, that would mean that Jesus is being sacrificed over and over again millions of times around the world year after year.

Hebrews 10:10, "By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Jesus' words in John 6 were to be understood spiritually. He was not suggesting cannibalism even though that is what His audience thought. He clarified His statements to His disciples in verse 63.

John 6:61-63, "When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, 'Does this offend you? What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.'"

Please understand that this is the Baptist position on the Lord's Supper. I know that our Catholic brothers (and some others) disagree. I am not attempting to debate this issue...I'm only presenting the common Baptist position.
Thanks rural_preacher I appreciate the instruction.
 
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Diakoneo

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mesue said:
This theological concept is called Transubstantion.

Transubstantion - is the change in the substance of bread & wine into the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus while under the appearance of bread and wine.

To not believe this is anathema, in some churches.
To me it appears to be a strange idea. To not believe it as anathema I think is wrong. After all the posts in here I find that I agree with the Baptist position and I really appreciated Iollian's post. I think that I'll just have to worry about making myself worthy, doing some prayer and self-examination at church before I take the Lord's Supper into myself..

1 Corinthians 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

Thanks everyone
 
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