Does Submit = Obey?

Ephs. 5:22
Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.

For submit in this application:
hupotassō
hoop-ot-as'-so

From G5259 and G5021; to subordinate; reflexively to obey: - be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.

Let's back up.... Ephisians 5 says to wives "Submit to your husbands as to the Lord."

It goes on to say "Husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church and gave Himself up for Her."

How did Jesus love the church? He gave up all that He had, His life, for the church and endured seperation from God for the church.

If a wife is submitting to a husband as the Church subnmits to Christ, she is giving up all for Him. If a husband is loving His wife as Christ loves the Church, he is giving up all for her. It's mutual submission. It is hard for me to see "obey" being a factor when there is mutual submission.

And all obedience is conditional upon God's laws. "Children obey your parents (we all know that part) in the Lord." If I tell my children to do something that is against God's rules, my children are not to obey me, but to obey God.

I can (and do) submit to my husband, but if he wants me to do something outside of God's rules, I must not comply and vice versa.

The bible doesn't say to only submit to a husband if he is always showing his love for his wife like he should.

As far as what a husband wants, I'm sure that we all understand that God's wishes come before any evil that a person may have in their heart.

No.

*nods* Good article.

Yup, very good article. Has helped me to understand the concept no end.

This article was linked to at one point during the Submission article. I think it's also useful...least it has been for me. http://www.themarriagebed.com/headship.shtml

I'd like to know where on earth we all got this idea that 'obey' is somehow a bad word. Just because it delves up bad feelings because some people don't use their authority well, it doesn't mean that the act of choosing to obey is somehow bad. Why are women so afraid of looking out of control? Why are women so afraid that they aren't going to look as intelligent as their husbands? It seems to me that most of this problem comes from women having a huge bout of insecurity.

My husband and I have had a disagreement recently about what color paint to use on our house. So, if I submit to his leadership and he decides that we should choose a different color than what I had picked out, does that somehow make me less intelligent? Does it make me a child because I would back off and let it be a little thing, a gift to him, instead of getting fussy about it? Maybe I'm weird, but I worry more about having a husband who wished that he could sleep in the corner of our roof, than I am of feeling like an unintelligent child. I know that I am smart, where my strengths and weakensses are, and what is right and wrong. So, why would I need control over my husband to feel secure in my own gifts and talents? I don't.

People always say that they want things to always be completely equal in their marriages, and I just don't think that that is realistic or even biblical, not in the way that they describe what they want. Some folks may not like the idea that much, but in Genesis, God wasn't fooling around when he said that Man would RULE over Woman. We are equal in the eyes of the Lord, neither being better than the other. BUT, we have different roles in this life. It's good that a man would take into consideration his wife's opinions, wants, and needs. However, that is him taking care of his responsibility to the Lord, and to her. A woman's submission is not dependant on how much her husband gives to her out of his love. It makes it much easier to submit with a glad heart, but the Lord doesn't say to submit only when a husband is in a giving mood.

Ah, and as far as definitions go, yes it looks to be that submit does mean to obey, no matter anyone else's personal views on how they want to see it.

Jenna said:

My husband and I have had a disagreement recently about what color paint to use on our house. So, if I submit to his leadership and he decides that we should choose a different color than what I had picked out, does that somehow make me less intelligent? Does it make me a child because I would back off and let it be a little thing, a gift to him, instead of getting fussy about it?

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I have a hard time understanding why it would be God's will for you to submit to your husband's paint choice. My husband and I each give on different situations and it works great. I don't see how it is a leadership issue to pick out the paint color. So, he decides on the paint color, and you decide on the new carpet.

People always say that they want things to always be completely equal in their marriages, and I just don't think that that is realistic or even biblical, not in the way that they describe what they want.

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Things are never completely equal but neither do I expect them to be unequal. My husband and I bring different things to the marriage but I believe we bring an equal contribution. My husband is stronger in some areas, and I am stronger in some areas.

Jenna, this is not about you, but I must express my opinion.

I think if there is a need for the woman to obey the man a lot then there must be need for counseling. Why should there be a need for the man OR the woman to be in control? Why should the man need to "be man" and make the decisions? I have seen men who think they are the great and powerful lead all and it leads to some sick relationships. Counseling is what is needed so they can show love to each other again.

Okay, I painted a target on my back, fire away!

So, if we submit to one another in Christ (as the Bible says we should), does that mean we obey every single Christian? I think the answer to that question is an obvious no. So, in this context, submission does not mean obey. I have a feeling, however, that the “definition” of submit changes when we bring it into marriage. Hmm… I feel that there is a little gap in logical reason here.

No, I am not scarred of loosing my intelligence. No, I am not afraid of loosing control, and no, I am not insecure in who I am or in our marriage. Lol…. I think it is funny that us equal marriage girls receive such assuming projections.

If a woman is has been created to be equally as intelligent as a man, how come she is not allowed to use or get credit for this in marriage? If she has a better idea than her husband, her husband should celebrate her idea and they should work on it as a couple. If the couple disagrees, they should love each other enough to figure out a good compromise and seek the Lord for direction. We do so in our marriage and have yet to experience the dreaded “power struggle” that supposedly happens in equal marriages according to popular Christian myth.

If my husband or I step out of line, we hold each other accountable. We tell the other how we feel about the other’s actions and always reach a quick reconciliation. When we are both equally submitting to one another there is no need for “final decision” leadership. Really, this is no fairy tale. It actually works in reality.

I believe that when God said that man would rule over woman, he was stating a fact rather than stating “the proper authority of the home”. I think God was telling Adam and Eve that they will now live in a fallen world. There will now be sin, there will now have backbreaking labour, there will now be pain, and there will also be men always trying to rule over women. These are just consequences of the fall. That doesn’t mean we just say, “whoops, were here, lets accept and encourage these things.” I think we should have compassion for those who are in pain, try to remove sin from our lives, try to share labour to help our fellow human, and treat women as equals.

What submission is not ...

• mindless obedience
  I think this is covered by understanding Godly disobedience. If someone, anyone, asks you to do wrong, respectfully and graciously say, "No." You are accountable before God for what you say and do.
• chunking your intellect and individuality in the waste basket
  Submitting to a husband isn't about giving up your individuality, your personal tastes or your dreams. It's not about following your husband around drooling "yes man" phrases.

God created husbands and wives to be a team. Husbands are the leader, but their input alone is not enough (see Headship). The team needs your intelligence, your experience and your perspective also.
Submission is choosing to step into agreement with God's structure of order and trusting Him to work it for everyone's good.

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I agree with this section of the article on submission (at http://www.themarriagebed.com/submission.shtml ) I particulary agree with the bit about marriages being a team. A husband and wife is a team that are joined together to support each other. I work in teams at work and can safely say that if the team did not have a leader it would fall apart. It would be a disorganised mess. However, the team leader doesn't order people about, they don't think they're better or cleverer than everyone else. They simply listen to the thoughts of the team members, they listen to the team members ideas and opinions and the leader puts in there own ideas and opinions. Based on the information given to them the team leader gives there opinion about the best course of action and consults the team as to whether they agree. If the team agrees then the course of action is carried out.

I believe this is the same for a marriage. A husband and wife form a team and teams need leaders. Leaders are no better than the other team members they have just been assigned the role of listening to the information given to them and finding out the possible courses of action and then consulting with the rest of the team to check they all agree on the course of action. A husband and wife team, must talk with each other and discuss they're ideas and opinions on things. Once the leader of the team has all the information a decision can be made. It may not be the right decision though and so the leader must consult with the other team members (i.e. his wife) to check that he did get all the facts straight and didn't misinterpret anything or that the course of action won't break any laws (be they Gods or mans). Once the course of action has been agreed then it can be carried out.

Without having a leader assigned to a team then there is no one with the specific role of listening and collating information before decisions are reached. Also everyone in a team with no leader believes their opinion is right and their idea is best. It is so hard to get anyone in a team with no leader to even listen to one another let alone make a good solid decision based on all the right information. So information is lost, misinterpreted or not conveyed at all during each team members battle for supremacy because they believe they're right and all the other members are wrong or their idea is flawed. Thus there's more chance of decisions made being the wrong ones. Leading to more troubles and disorganisation in a big viscious circle.

That's the way I see it anyway.

Ehm, I think sometimes it can mean obey. Sometimes I suck it up and go with hubby's decision. Not always an easy or fun thing. But I picked a good man, made sure he had a pattern of consistently making solid God-honoring decisions. Sure he slips up now and then, no one is perfect. I think that's the best think a single woman can do for herself with respect to making submission in marriage as gentle a transition as possible.

Honestly, some of the girls, I don't know what the heck they were thinking with their choice of a husband. You could just tell he wasn't going to be good news in this department and they marry 'em anyways. "I'm in love...love will get us through." "He won't be like this once we're married." "Us? Fight? Me? Have a disagreement with him? Never...we're too in looovvee."

Did I get off topic, again?

So, if we submit to one another in Christ (as the Bible says we should), does that mean we obey every single Christian? I think the answer to that question is an obvious no. So, in this context, submission does not mean obey.

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See, not you are getting into levels of authority. When you submit to the government do you obey it? As far as it doesn't contradict God. When you disobey, you pay a price, like $85 for a seatbelt fine. But if a police man told me how to raise my kids, I wouldn't have to obey, as God's delegated authority has my wife and I at a higher authority for our kids than a policeman. In the event that the government said all children are to be raised by the state and taught no religion, then God's word is a higher authority.

As a side note, submission only happens when there's disagreement, or when one has to impose their will on another. (ie. Speeding limits.)

Actually, I am not talking about two different types of authority. Because the same sentence in the Bible that tells us to submit to one another (mutual submission), infers that wives submit (Ephesians 5). The passage doesn’t even say “wives submit”, but we know this meaning is intended because the grammatical structure into which the phrase “wives to their husbands” indicates that it is referring to the word submit (in the context of mutual submission) at the beginning of the sentence. The passage tells us to submit to one another, and for wives to do so as well (in the same sentence). Same sentence, same submission. I think it would a huge leap to say that the kind of submission required of a wife is different from mutual submission since the two statements are in the same sentence and the wife part only an extension of the mutual.

Where do we get this idea that the husband exclusive authority over the wife? I can recall the Bible telling us that the husband and wife have authority over each other. If the wife also has authority over the husband, then the whole government hierarchy illustration simply doesn’t work. Since they have mutual authority over each other, and they mutually submit, each should be willing to give themselves to the other - not this one leads, one obeys business.