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Does Rejection of Absolute Truth Hold Some in Homosexual Bondage?

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Zaac

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31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:31-32

Are people held in bondage to homosexual fornication and fornication PERIOD as the result of not knowing Truth?

Many in this forum seem to be under the impression that no one can know the truth, and thus use that as an excuse to not adhere to what God's Word says about homosexual fornication.

If you know Jesus Christ and are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, the Deliverer of Truth, how is it not possible to know absolute truth?
 

OllieFranz

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[BIBLE]Luke 18:10-14[/BIBLE]

Are people held in bondage to Their own "righteousness" pride, and pride in general as the result of thinking they, who are sinners under grace, have the right to judge others who are also under grace?

Many in this forum seem to be under the impression that they are perfect, and thus use that as an excuse to not adhere to what God's Word says about judging other Christians.

If you know Jesus Christ and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, the Deliverer of Truth, how is it possible to ignore the clear teachings of the Bible?

[BIBLE]Matthew 7:1-5[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]Romans 2:1-3[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]James 4:11-12[/BIBLE]
 
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Zaac

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[BIBLE]Luke 18:10-14[/BIBLE]

Are people held in bondage to Their own "righteousness" pride, and pride in general as the result of thinking they, who are sinners under grace, have the right to judge others who are also under grace?

I'm working on that book on judgment cause some of yall still confused.

Many in this forum seem to be under the impression that they are perfect, and thus use that as an excuse to not adhere to what God's Word says about judging other Christians.

Show one person in this forum who has said that they are perfect.

If you know Jesus Christ and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, the Deliverer of Truth, how is it possible to ignore the clear teachings of the Bible?

That's what I asked. How do you ignore it as truth? You may still sin, but how on earth do we get to the point that God's Word is no longer truth?
 
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FaithLikeARock

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When it comes to homosexual fornication, they sure are.

Homosexual fornication, is a one time sin. So if they are held in bondage, so are you. We all have sins we don't recognize Zaac. It's a part of human pride. And don't say "NO I DON'T" because that's the point, you don't think that you do. I'm sure I have them too. It's why I appreciate some criticism once in a while so I can recognize it.

My point is, if they are, so are you, so am I, and so is everyone else on this forum. No one is entirely free.
 
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Zaac

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Homosexual fornication, is a one time sin.

How is something done again and again a one time sin?

So if they are held in bondage, so are you. We all have sins we don't recognize Zaac.

Have you seen where I have said otherwise?


It's a part of human pride. And don't say "NO I DON'T" because that's the point, you don't think that you do.

You're sniffing around trying to argue about something that has not been said.

I'm sure I have them too. It's why I appreciate some criticism once in a while so I can recognize it.

I asked about homosexual fornication bondage. Focus.

My point is, if they are, so are you, so am I, and so is everyone else on this forum. No one is entirely free.

Good you made your point. Now does someone else care to ANSWER the question?
 
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FaithLikeARock

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I've seen how you do nothing but condemn homosexual fornicators for going against God. I had to assume it was because you didn't know that. But knowing that you do, you're a hypocrite. I don't have to answer the question of such because you'll take it with a grain of salt. I did answer your question. None of us our truly free. But that's not good enough because that includes you, is that right?
 
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Zaac

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Faith, go play.
 
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OllieFranz

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Show one person in this forum who has said that they are perfect.

Several persons in this forum have claimed that Matthew 7:1-5 does not apply to them because they have no "beams" in their eyes. Jesus' point is that we are all sinners and have not got the right to judge others. Just as in John 8 He said "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." He did not say "He that did not commit adultery among you..." He said "He that is without sin among you..."

I could get more specific, but then I'd be skirting the forum rules against discussing people rather than issues.

That's what I asked. How do you ignore it as truth?


You may still sin, but how on earth do we get to the point that God's Word is no longer truth?

God's Word is Truth. Our understanding of it, however, may be distorted. Leviticus does, in two verses, say that ואת־זכר לא תשכב משכבי אשה is תועבה but does ואת־זכר לא תשכב משכבי אשה encompass everything we mean when we speak of gay affection? There are good textual reasons for believing that the original meaning was more limited than the far-ranging ban modern Conservatives want to enforce. There are also good textual reasons for believing that ואת־זכר לא תשכב משכבי אשה is one of the "kosher" bans that were repealled by the council of Jerusalem. Might these beliefs be mistaken? Yes. But so might your interpretation.

Paul's mention of arsenokoitai in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy are probably references back to Leviticus, but his point in those verses is to show that everyone sins, and the specific sins don't matter as much as the overwhelming prevalence of sin. It is probably taking it a bit too far to claim that Paul was specifically condemning homosexuality.

And your interpretation of Romans 1:26-27 simply ignores both Paul's sources and his target audience. It is possible to argue your interpretation as a secondary meaning, but Paul went out of his way to minimize that possibility.


But the Four passages that I quoted are far more clearly aimed against exactly the type of devisive tactics and judgements we see here on this forum than the five passages are against every possible form of same-sex affection.

And they are just four of the most pointed. Every book of the New Testament either encourages humility and brotherhood or warns against haughtiness and pride, or both.
 
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BreadAlone

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But when you've been shown your sin and continue to reject the words of Christ, you're not in ignorance any longer.
 
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OllieFranz

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But when you've been shown your sin and continue to reject the words of Christ, your not in ignorance any longer.

So that some of you may not continue in ignorance:

Paul here gives two examples of Levitical Law which have been eased as restrictions on Christians. One we sometimes label "ceremonial" (a restriction on non-kosher meat) and one we usually consider moral (honoring the Sabbath).

If someone chooses to continue to honor these restrictions it is a good thing, but it is not required. But if someone who has understood the Christian message differently and still thinks that he must follow the restrictions goes against his own conscience and breaks them, then he is sinning.

We are not to put a stumbling block before such a "weaker" brother and tempt him to break these restrictions, but neither is he to judge our honest understanding of the freedom we have in Christ. Instead both should edify one another in the important doctrines of Redemption and Salvation.

Paul says much the same thing to the Corinthians, Colossians and the Galatians as well. For example:


So as long as the gay Christians are not setting up a stumbling-block where "weaker" brothers are tempted into gay sex, they are following Paul's advice*.

Christians who believe that same-sex physical affection is sin under any circumstances are certainly free to express why they feel that way, but they are not free to condemn those who understand it differently.

*Yes there have been a few (not very many but a few) gay posters who have told other posters struggling with gay feelings to just give up and give in to those feelings. As long as the Christian so struggling still believes that it is wrong, those posters are setting up a stumbling-block and are in the wrong.
 
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BreadAlone

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Paul says not to let anyone judge you by a Sabbath Day..that is, what day you celebrate it.

In other words, it doesn't matter if it's Monday or Saturday. So the moral principle of the sabbath still applies..just the day doesn't matter.
 
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OllieFranz

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Paul says not to let anyone judge you by a Sabbath Day..that is, what day you celebrate it.

In other words, it doesn't matter if it's Monday or Saturday. So the moral principle of the sabbath still applies..just the day doesn't matter.

Read it again. Paul says:
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.

If someone, who sees every day as a gift from God chooses to not set aside special days to honor above the rest of the week, let him do so to the LORD
 
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BreadAlone

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Read it again. Paul says:


If someone, who sees every day as a gift from God chooses to not set aside special days to honor above the rest of the week, let him do so to the LORD
You still must never "give up meeting together as some are in the habbit of doing."
 
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OllieFranz

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You still must never "give up meeting together as some are in the habbit of doing."

True, because we need to encourage one another. If we choose to do it one day every week for that reason that is OK, especially if it means that we will be inthe same place at the same time as the "weaker" bretheren who are gathering because of the Sabbath. I don't know about your church, but active, regular fellowship is not confined to just Sunday service. There are Wednesday night Bible studies, Saturday Pot Lucks, etc.

But by focusing on the question of the Sabbath is we've gotten off topic from the question as to whether an understanding of the Bible to say Christians are free of the Levitical "mishkav zakur" ban is "homosexual bondage."
 
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tulc

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If you know Jesus Christ and are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, the Deliverer of Truth, how is it not possible to know absolute truth?

As OllieFranz has pointed out, by that logic why do you still sin? You know you shouldn't, you know what sin is, you have Jesus dwelling in you, so shouldn't you be free from sin?
tulc(who actually knows an absolute truth: Jesus loves me, right now!)
 
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Phinehas2

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Dear tulc,
As OllieFranz has pointed out, by that logic why do you still sin? You know you shouldn't, you know what sin is, you have Jesus dwelling in you, so shouldn't you be free from sin?
Ah but the quote addressed the knowledge of sin, you have asked about sinful actions. The answer to your question in general is we are now free not to sin, repentance avails us of forgiveness through Jesus blood, we have available the Holy Spirit which helps us flee from sexual immorality.

One of the problems with discussing same-sex sex, as it would be with any other sin, is we aren’t focussed on Jesus and a life lead by the Spirit, but focussed on fleshly struggles. The more we focus on sinful temptation the more we are tempted, What motivates us, Jesus or desires of the flesh?
 
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Ohioprof

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The belief that one knows the "absolute truth" holds people in bondage, I think. Believing that one has the "truth" and that everyone else is wrong is nothing but rigid refusal to learn anything or to consider different ways of thinking and different viewpoints.

People who claim to know the "absolute truth" are more likel to stick their fingers in their ears and refuse to hear what gay people are telling them about our lives, about who we are. And they then miss the message of Jesus, which was not to judge others, but to love our neighbor.

Believing that one knows the "absolute truth" is probably the most dangerous notion a person can hold, because it produces intolerance of other viewpoints and the refusal to listen, learn, and grow through dialogue. I think we all need to acknowledge that we do NOT know the absolute truth, that all of our beliefs are just beliefs, that we seek to know God, but we do not, as humans, know everything, we do not know the whole of truth. I think we need to practice humility when it comes to our beliefs, to acknowledge that we are not omniscient, and we do not know or possess the absolute truth. None of us possesses the absolute truth.
 
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