Does Qur'an Teach Violence?

arunma · May 13, 2005

Rahma said:
The 10 commandments are the Law of Moses. Why pick and choose which laws to uphold, and which to declare as passe? They're God's laws.

First of all, the Law of Moses was directed at Israel (it says so in the Law). So technically, you only need to follow the Law if you are a Jew living in the theocracy of Israel. Secondly, Jesus and his apostles specified for us which laws should be followed by everyone. So God himself has given us instructions on which laws should be obeyed.

rahma · May 13, 2005

arunma said:
First of all, the Law of Moses was directed at Israel (it says so in the Law). So technically, you only need to follow the Law if you are a Jew living in the theocracy of Israel.

But someone still has to follow them then, barbaric though people may claim they are.

And no matter who has to follow them, God still gave those laws. If people call Qur'anic law and punishment barbaric, then they are calling God's OT laws barbaric as well.

Secondly, Jesus and his apostles specified for us which laws should be followed by everyone. So God himself has given us instructions on which laws should be obeyed.

Where do they say the 10 commandments? I'm trying to understand the christian obsessions with these 10 laws, over all others, especially when Jesus is reported to have said that the most important of all mosaic laws was
"Love the Lord your God" and that the second was "love your neighbor." The 10 commandments aren't there.

ghazirizvi · May 13, 2005

The Mujahadin have been in conflict in this area since it first started. How can you claim such nonsense as to deny any activity, we all know that the Mujahadine fights in this area and were trained and armed by Pakistan military.

Most of the people fighting in Kashmir are Kashmiri's. There have been "terrorist" activities perpetrated by both Indians and Pakistani's. The people that fight in Kashmir are civilians and those that come to Kashmir to fight are basically from the NWFP. If you know about the conflict it's about disagreement on the terms of partition the muslim majority wants to join Pakistan, the Indians dont want that to happen. Thus there has been violence. There are mujahedeens, people who protect thier land and property, but not in he sense you are thinking. THE CONFLICT IS POLITICAL, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO RELIGIOUS AGENDA ON EITHER SIDE.

Bevlina · May 13, 2005

rahma said:
Have you read the Old Testament? Most of our punishments are quite mosaic.

Strange thing to ask a Christian if she has read the Old Testament Rahma.
Have you read The Book of Enoch as to why these things happened?
Mosaic punishments are not for Christians. PraiseGod.

rahma · May 13, 2005

Bevlina said:
Strange thing to ask a Christian if she has read the Old Testament Rahma.

I'm just wondering, since you claimed you haven't ever seen any punishments are barbaric as muslim ones. You must have had your eyes closed while reading mosaic punishments then.

Have you read The Book of Enoch as to why these things happened?

Isn't the book of Enoch a pseudepigraphal apocryphal book, and only considered cannon in the Etheopic church?

Mosaic punishments are not for Christians. PraiseGod.

Good for you. But, they're still from God, which means that God made barbaric laws.

Bevlina · May 13, 2005

Yes! It is good for us that Jesus preached love. Very good indeed!

rahul_sharma · May 13, 2005

Does quran teach Voilence?

no , i dont think so.

ghazirizvi said:
Most of the people fighting in Kashmir are Kashmiri's..

no, they are/were hardcore pakistan sponserd Terrorists.

The people that fight in Kashmir are civilians and those that come to Kashmir to fight are basically from the NWFP.

right, NWFP which is a part of pakistan is a factory of Terrorists.

If you know about the conflict it's about disagreement on the terms of partition the muslim majority wants to join Pakistan, the Indians dont want that to happen.

wrong, rulers of every state were given the choices and kashmir's maharaja joined India. Why Balauchistan is a part of pakistan? Tribals never wanted to join pak.

Thus there has been violence. There are mujahedeens, people who protect thier land and property, but not in he sense you are thinking. THE CONFLICT IS POLITICAL, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO RELIGIOUS AGENDA ON EITHER SIDE

It was neither political nor religious. pakistan after succesive defeats from India in direct wars decided to start this proxy war. First pakistan made it political, then try to colour it with religion.

caltulip · May 13, 2005

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do. 8:39

Islam is not a peaceful religon. The practioners of Islam can be peaceful wonderfull, people. However, the actual teachings of the religion are not peaceful. The above is a direct quote from the koran. sixty percent of the koran has to do with jihad in some form. Sound peaceful to you. The Muslim is instructed to try to convert anyone who does not believe in The on God (that includes christians jews and muslims) and if they refuse to convert to kill them. Christians and jews are simply forced to pay a tax if they wil not convert (If they don't pay the tax then they shoulkd be killed). However, sometimes christians are considered not to be belivers in the one true God since their belief in the trinity can be construed as belief in multiple Gods. (Many muslims including Mohammed believe the trinty is God the Father, Jesus, and Mary).

Here are more verses from the koran

Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah (tax) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 9:29

Surah 9:5 says, Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (those who join gods with God) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (prayers), and give Zakât (alms), then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

rahma · May 13, 2005

caltulip said:
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do. 8:39

Islam is not a peaceful religon. The practioners of Islam can be peaceful wonderfull, people. However, the actual teachings of the religion are not peaceful. The above is a direct quote from the koran.

Yes, it is a direct quote from the english translation of the Qur'an put out by Saudi Arabia. The arabic doesn't have the words in the parenthasis. It's a Saudi understanding of the Qur'an.

However, when we look at the more traditional understanding of this verse, we view it in the context of the Muslim's long, protracted war with the Meccans. The Muslims had begun to lose heart and this verse was revealed as a rallying cry. It specifically relates to situations where non muslims have begun a long, bloody, drawn out war with Muslims, and is not seen as a call to fight every single non muslim.

sixty percent of the koran has to do with jihad in some form. Sound peaceful to you.

Does it now? You know, I read through the Qur'an a little bit each day, so that I read through it completely every 2 months. For the life of me, I seem to remember that most of the Qur'an are exhortations to the believers on how we should live our lives, rules that govern muslims.

And, even when jhd is specifically mentioned, scholars have interpreted it as both an inner struggle with one's self to submit to God, and as a struggle against those who attack muslims.

The Muslim is instructed to try to convert anyone who does not believe in The on God (that includes christians jews and muslims) and if they refuse to convert to kill them. Christians and jews are simply forced to pay a tax if they wil not convert (If they don't pay the tax then they shoulkd be killed).

Wow, this is a rather sad misunderstanding of 1400 years of rich islamic scholarship when it comes to Muslim/non muslim relations.

When we look at something as complex as muslim/non muslim relations, or war, we must look at ALL the Qur'anic verses and ALL the ahadith related to that issue, and examine what previous scholars have said on the issue. Scholars do not pick out a single Qur'anic verse, or a single hadith and make a religious law out of it. These scholars dedicate years of their lives to reading and learning the Qur'an, ahadith and fiqh before they can claim speak for what Islam says.

rahma · May 13, 2005

Bevlina said:
Yes! It is good for us that Jesus preached love. Very good indeed!

But, you claim Jesus (as) is God, and God in the Old Testament had some pretty harsh punishments set out, quite similar to Islamic law.

ghazirizvi · May 13, 2005

rahul_sharma said:
no , i dont think so.

no, they are/were hardcore pakistan sponserd Terrorists.

right, NWFP which is a part of pakistan is a factory of Terrorists.

wrong, rulers of every state were given the choices and kashmir's maharaja joined India. Why Balauchistan is a part of pakistan? Tribals never wanted to join pak.

It was neither political nor religious. pakistan after succesive defeats from India in direct wars decided to start this proxy war. First pakistan made it political, then try to colour it with religion.

Well, some of your info is correct but the NWFP, it is not "terrorist factory". There are a few people from NWFP that do bombings in Kashmir and there are also a few Indians that do bombing in Kashmir. As for you history of Kashmir is wrong. If I remember correctly the maharajah's had almost zero power under British rule, thus when Britian left the subcontinent, the Pakistan/India partition was made, dividing the lands on the majority living there. No Maharaja's made any decisions. Partition clearly states that any area under majority muslim rule is allowed to join with Pakistan that was previously part of the British Empire, and today there seems to be some debate over that, thus the conflict in Kashmir. And BTW the War is clearly political not a series of succesive defeats as you claim. The Kashmiri conflict has been going on from the start of Partition, only recently has it gotten super heated. As for Pakistan, if I remember correctly they won 2 out of 3 Wars, not two defeats. Anyways that is a Nationalistic debate, not a religious one, but if you wanna continue it I will be happy to do so

caltulip · May 13, 2005

Dear rahma,
I fear that I have offened you and that was not my intention. However, I do want to say a few things in reponse. The koran has a wealth of verses that encourage the murder of non muslims. Since these verses have become politically incorrect and unpopular they have been reinterpreted or totally ignored. When looking at the individual verses it is abundantly clear what their true meaning is. if "Scholars have interprted" means that certain Muslim leaders have given the koran new meanings to make it more acceptable to possible converts (or their own concienense) then I agree. Also some muslim scholars still do attribute those meanings to the Koran. That number is becomeing smaller however. Also I would ask you to question what Mohammed truely meant when he said those things. (Not what you want him to mean). Although dureing part of Mohammed his life he talked about ove for others for an equal part of his life he went out and conquered his neighbors. No other major religion's founder was a conqueor.

rahma · May 13, 2005

caltulip said:
Dear rahma,
I fear that I have offened you and that was not my intention. However, I do want to say a few things in reponse. The koran has a wealth of verses that encourage the murder of non muslims.

No, the Qur'an expressely forbids murder. The Qur'an does allow war, which is where the verses you quoted come in.

Since these verses have become politically incorrect and unpopular they have been reinterpreted or totally ignored. When looking at the individual verses it is abundantly clear what their true meaning is.

And who exactly were your teachers? We have an isnad of interpretations that go back to the Prophet (saws). We don't pick a verse and apply it to every situation. Islamic rulings are a combination of Quran, Sunnah and scholarship.

if "Scholars have interprted" means that certain Muslim leaders have given the koran new meanings to make it more acceptable to possible converts (or their own concienense) then I agree.

No, Islamic scholarship is a 1400 year old tradition, started by the Prophet (saws) himself.

Also I would ask you to question what Mohammed truely meant when he said those things. (Not what you want him to mean).

Muhammad (saws) did not say those things. God revealed the Qur'an to the Prophet (saws). We know how the prophet (saws) interpreted these verses because the sahaba and salafi recorded hadith on what the Prophet (saws) said during the time the verses were revealed.

Although dureing part of Mohammed his life he talked about ove for others for an equal part of his life he went out and conquered his neighbors. No other major religion's founder was a conqueor.

The Prophet (saws) was a prophet for 23 years. For the first 14 years, he and his followers were abused, killed and persecuted. In 622 they made hijra to Medina, and began to fight back. The Prophet (saws) was a complete religious leader and laid out the complete way one should live their life. He gave us a government example, a military example and a religious example.

SKY80 · May 13, 2005

TERRORIST DEATHS:

1985:
November 23: EgyptAir Flight 648 hijacked by Abu Nidal group, flown to Malta, where Egyptian commandos storm plane; 60 are killed by gunfire and explosions.

1992:
March 17: Israeli Embassy bombing by "Islamic Jihad" in Buenos Aires, Argentina; 29 killed, 242 injured

1993:
February 26: World Trade Center bombing kills 6 and injures over 1000 people.

1994:
July 18: Bombing of Jewish Center in Buenos Aires, Argentina kills 86 and wounds 300.

1995:
Bombings in France by a GIA unit led by Khaled Kelkal kill seven and injure more than 100.

1996:
A series of four suicide bombings in Israel leave 60 dead and 284 wounded within 10 days

1997:
November 17: Islamic gunmen attack tourists in Luxor, Egypt, killing 71 people,
1998:
August 7: U.S. embassy bombings in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania and Nairobi, Kenya, killing 225 people

2000:
44 people in Israel are Killed over the 2000 year (highly disputed)

2001:
230 people in Israel over the the 2001 year (higly disputed)
The attacks on September 11 kill almost 3,000 in a series of hijacked airliner crashes into U.S. landmark: the World Trade Center

2002:
390 estimated number of deaths related to terrorism in Israel in 2002 (highly disputed)
April 11: A natural gas truck fitted with explosives is driven into a synagogue in Tunisia by an al-Qaeda member, killing 21 and wounding more than 30 in the Ghriba Synagogue Attack.
October 12: Bali car bombing of holidaymakers kills 202.

2003:
Estimated Israeli 177 Civilian deaths (highly disputed)
May 12: Bombings of United States expat housing compounds in Saudi Arabia kill 26 and injure 160 in the Riyadh Compound Bombings. Al-Qaeda blamed.
May 16: Casablanca Attacks by 12 bombers on five "Western and Jewish" targets in Casablanca, Morocco leaves 41 dead.
August 19: Canal Hotel Bombing in Baghdad, Iraq, kills 22 people
August 29: Car bomb outside Imam Ali Mosque in Najaf, Iraq, kills more than 80 people
October 15: A bomb is detonated by Palestinians against a US diplomatic convoy in the Gaza Strip, killing three Americans.
November 15 and November 20: Truck bombs go off at two synagogues, the British Consulate, and the HSBC Bank in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 57

2004:
Estimated number of Israeli civilians 12 (highly disputed)
February 1: 109 Kurds are killed in 2 suicide bombings in Arbil, Iraq.
February 27: Superferry 14 is bombed in the Philippines by Abu Sayyaf, killing 116.
March 2: Suicide bombings at Shia holy sites kill 181
March 2: Attack on procession of Shia Muslims in Pakistan kills 43
April 21: Basra bombs in Iraq kill 74
April 21: Bombing of a security building in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kills 5.
May 29: Al-Khobar massacres, in which Islamist militants kill 22 people September 9: Jakarta embassy bombing, in which the Australian embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia was bombed, killing eight people
October 7: Three car bombs explode in the Sinai Peninsula, killing at least 32
November 2: Theo van Gogh, a Dutch film maker, is assassinated
December 6: Suspected al Qaeda-linked group attacks U.S. consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, killing 5 local employees.

2005:
February 28: About 125 Iraqis killed by a suicide car bomb
April: April 2005 terrorist attacks in Cairo On April 7 a suicide bomber blows himself up in Cairo's Khan al Khalili market, killing three

why is it that in every tape aired by AL-jeezera ( terrorirt TV network) it is people who scream ALLAH is great and glory to allah while they MURDER INNOCENT people in the name of their "faith"....to say that islam is peaceful=LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES!!
Rhama tell me I am wrong...does it not say in the Quran the islamic "holy book" that if a person kills a infidel ( one who does not beleive in islam) or a person who dies while protecting ( homicide bombers) Islam and is called a martyr is told in the quran thattheu will sit on the right hand of Allah....and recieve virgins as a reward...?

rahma · May 13, 2005

SKY80 said:
Rhama tell me I am wrong...does it not say in the Quran the islamic "holy book" that if a person kills a infidel ( one who does not beleive in islam) or a person who dies while protecting ( homicide bombers) Islam and is called a martyr is told in the quran thattheu will sit on the right hand of Allah....and recieve virgins as a reward...?

Yep, you're wrong. A person who kills innocent people is not a shadeed. A person who kills without provocation is not a martyr. Besides, God doesn't have hands, and everyone who does good will get lots of virgins in heaven, men and women.

rahma · May 13, 2005

I would also like to point out that in the last 100 years, muslims have never started a world war. We didn't orchestrate the holocaust, or participate in the Rwandan genocides. We weren't a party to Stalin's murder of 20 million of his own citizens, or to Pol Pot's madness. Nope, we didn't invade Tibet, or wage a war in Nepal.

Humanity is violent. The violence dejour is muslim violence, but we aren't the only community with blood on our hands.

I know for myself, I get up in the morning, I pray, I go to work, I pray some more, I come home, I pray, I eat dinner, I pray, I watch some tv, I pray, and then I go to bed. Never once, in my many years as a muslim, have I ever felt the urge to go out and kill a kafr. Even today, at the grocery store, when this creepy catholic guy decided to take it upon himself to tell me I'm going to hell and then wack me on the head and say "Muhammad blesses you." Yet again, I was assaulted in my very own neighborhood and no one stepped in to help. Still, I went home, I prayed, and I went on with my life. I didn't kill him. Shocker, I know, since I guess my religion tells me to kill everyone.

rahul_sharma · May 14, 2005

ghazirizvi said:
Well, some of your info is correct but the NWFP, it is not "terrorist factory". There are a few people from NWFP that do bombings in Kashmir and there are also a few Indians that do bombing in Kashmir. As for you history of Kashmir is wrong. If I remember correctly the maharajah's had almost zero power under British rule, thus when Britian left the subcontinent, the Pakistan/India partition was made, dividing the lands on the majority living there. No Maharaja's made any decisions. Partition clearly states that any area under majority muslim rule is allowed to join with Pakistan that was previously part of the British Empire, and today there seems to be some debate over that, thus the conflict in Kashmir. And BTW the War is clearly political not a series of succesive defeats as you claim. The Kashmiri conflict has been going on from the start of Partition, only recently has it gotten super heated. As for Pakistan, if I remember correctly they won 2 out of 3 Wars, not two defeats. Anyways that is a Nationalistic debate, not a religious one, but if you wanna continue it I will be happy to do so

wrong, i wanted to debate it further but this issue has nothing to do with religion and Quran. so this is not the right place and thread. If you want we can go ahead in private.

But One thing i want to ask you, pakistan won 2 wars against India?? when? Who told you this? Ptv?

Yahya · May 14, 2005

Muhammad only faught in battle for maximum 2 days.

ghazirizvi · May 14, 2005

wrong, i wanted to debate it further but this issue has nothing to do with religion and Quran. so this is not the right place and thread. If you want we can go ahead in private.

But One thing i want to ask you, pakistan won 2 wars against India?? when? Who told you this? Ptv?

What do you think are the terms of partition ?

Pakistan won the 1947 war with control of Jammu and Kashmir and almost a million people.

The second war was a stale mate (sorry for saying it was a win, as I consider it victory, but then so may Indians)

The third war produced Bangladesh, and I guess the victory can be accorded to India

And BTW I niether get PTV or live in Pakistan.

rahul_sharma · May 15, 2005

ghazirizvi said:
What do you think are the terms of partition ?

Rulers of every state were given the choices, Kashmir's maharaja joined India.

Pakistan won the 1947 war with control of Jammu and Kashmir and almost a million people.

Pakistan controls Jammu and Kashmir?? Huh...

The second war was a stale mate (sorry for saying it was a win, as I consider it victory, but then so may Indians)

you are allowed to believe anything.

The third war produced Balochistan, and I guess the victory can be accorded to India

Balochistan, huhhhh....
Dear Balochistan is part of pakistan even today. It was Bangaladesh

Pakistan was dismembered in this war. ....90 thousand Pakistani shoulders (rapists) shamelessly surrendered in front of Indian forces in East Pakistan (now Bangaladesh).

And BTW I niether get PTV or live in Pakistan.

I hope you are pakistani.
I hope you are not Indian muslim.

Does Qur'an Teach Violence?

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