Does perfect pre-knowledge imply hard determinism?

Pink Spider said:

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Does perfect pre-knowledge imply
hard determinism?.
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Yes.

To know with absolute infallibility what will happen, events have to be completely predetermined and not able to occur any other way.

Chance (in the sense of randomness - ie: not predetermined) and absolute knowledge preclude each other - you cannot have both.

No.

I would think it would depend on what "perfect pre-knowledge" entails.

If you could know all the possibilities of potential outcomes, yet only know which outcomes were more likely to come to pass than others based on probability factors, then one could technically have perfect pre-knowledge, without having deterministic systems.

I would think the issue is largely determined on one's place in causality. If an entity claimed to have perfect pre-knowledge about the complete state of all things (i.e. the universe/multiverse/etc), yet did not exist until some point after the inception of causality, then it's claim to have perfect pre-knowledge could not be definitively proven, regardless of how accurate. It would at best, be assumed by corroborating factors. However there could always be a factor unaccounted for: whatever factors were at play prior to the entities existence. And even then, if this entity were trying to definitively prove this pre-knowledge to any other entity whose place in the causal chain came after the initiating event of causality, it could not be proven to these entities either because of their own place in the causal chain. IOW ... it would be a matter of believing it, or not.

An example: if God manifested to the entire world in some extraordinary fashion, performed a variety of feats defying physics as we know them, claimed, "I am the only being like myself, I created all things, I know things before they happen, etc" ... it could not be proven definitively, no matter how many feats are performed, how many accurate predictions are made, etc. The reason being: because of OUR place in the causal chain. We were not there at the beginning to verify the claim. How do we know turtles-all-the-way-down didn't predate this entity ? How do we know "God" is telling the truth ? Even if God were able to produce "photos" lol, how do we know that something wasn't there BEFORE that ? It would arguably boil down largely to a matter of faith or belief: you either trust this entity about that specific thing, or you don't. Even if everything seemed to support the statements made by "God", there is still a factor at play which leaves open the possibility that "God" may be mistaken, and that factor is our own place in the causal chain. Thus, "God's" own testimony about Himself is essentially hearsay and anecdotal, relatively speaking. Even if it were absolute truth, there would be no way to prove such a claim absolutely, unless we were there to verify it.

It has some wiggle room. If god alone wasn't destined to commit to any one action, but everything else was, then god would know what the outcomes of its actions alone would entail as the only variable to influence the predictions, and since this same being would be commiting said actions, it would still have perfect predictions.

If we are talking about God, it implies predestination. God is omnipotent, as well as omniscient, and, if he didn't like what he foresaw, he could use his omniscient power to change it. Therefore the final course of events in world history must be those which God has preordained.

No.

Nor does it imply predestination.

It simply means that God knows the future, a concept that almost every Christian, whether predestinarian or freewiller, takes for granted. To know what will happen and to make it happen are two different things.

Albion said:

No.

Nor does it imply predestination.

It simply means that God knows the future, a concept that almost every Christian, whether predestinarian or freewiller, takes for granted. To know what will happen and to make it happen are two different things.

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To know what will happen, and to allow it to happen, is effectively to predetermine it. God could use his combination of omniscience and omnipotence to create a universe with whatever history he wanted, and the only way he could avoid creating one of them (the one he chose to create) would have been not to have created any of them.

Even leaving aside biblical evidence, that alone settles the debate in favour of predestination.

lesliedellow said:

To know what will happen, and to allow it to happen, is effectively to predetermine it.

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Nope. I have known in various situations what will happen, but I didn't make it happen.

So also with God. The fact that he knows the future does not in any way mean that he has forced the outcome to be what it turns out to be. This is understood by people on both sides of the Free Will vs. Predestination debate.

He could, of course, predestine or predetermine whatever he wants to, but that's another matter.

lesliedellow said:

To know what will happen, and to allow it to happen, is effectively to predetermine it. God could use his combination of omniscience and omnipotence to create a universe with whatever history he wanted, and the only way he could avoid creating one of them (the one he chose to create) would have been not to have created any of them.

Even leaving aside biblical evidence, that alone settles the debate in favour of predestination.

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Do you believe that "God" Himself is subject to determinism ? IOW, anything God chooses to do, is already pre-determined and He cannot make a different choice ? Thus, He just has to continue to play out the role He's forseen in advance, not being able to stop Himself ?

Albion said:

No.

Nor does it imply predestination.

It simply means that God knows the future, a concept that almost every Christian, whether predestinarian or freewiller, takes for granted. To know what will happen and to make it happen are two different things.

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Thanks..

Albion said:

Nope. I have known in various situations what will happen, but I didn't make it happen.

So also with God. The fact that he knows the future does not in any way mean that he has forced the outcome to be what it turns out to be. This is understood by people on both sides of the Free Will vs. Predestination debate.

He could, of course, predestine or predetermine whatever he wants to, but that's another matter.

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You are missing the point, perhaps deliberately so. God could create any universe he wanted, with whatever history he wanted, and he would have had perfect knowledge of every potential universe's history.

Therefore, he could have chosen to create a universe in which he foresaw that everybody would be saved. Alternatively he could have chosen to create a universe in which he foresaw that Hitler would spend his time working amongst the poor in Africa, and Peter, rather than Judas, would betray Jesus.

Instead he CHOSE to create a universe in which he foresaw that Hitler would be be a monster, and in which Catholics would try to recruit Peter as the first Pope.

If you have a God who is both omnipotent and omniscient, predestination cannot be escaped as being a logical consequence. You, of course, are neither omnipotent nor omniscient, so arguments about what the state of your knowledge implies are irrelevant.

lesliedellow said:

You are missing the point, perhaps deliberately so. God could create any universe he wanted, with whatever history he wanted, and he would have had perfect knowledge of every potential universe's history.

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No, I think you've missed the point. To know the future does not mean to create the future. Period. But make no mistake about your theory...if it were as you want, it would mean that every last event, thought, and doing in the Universe would be scripted in advance by God and all of this would be nothing but unthinking robotic motions. I see no reason to think that such is the case, just because God can see the future (as almost everyone agrees is the case).

Therefore, he could have chosen to create a universe in which he foresaw that everybody would be saved.

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He could have.

Alternatively he could have chosen to create a universe in which he foresaw that Hitler would spend his time working amongst the poor in Africa, and Peter, rather than Judas, would betray Jesus.

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He could have.

Instead he CHOSE to create a universe in which he foresaw that Hitler would be be a monster, and in which Catholics would try to recruit Peter as the first Pope.

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OK? That doesn't mean that he decided to force Hitler to do what he did. That makes no sense on any level, if you ask me. For one, God would be endorsing evil and so denying his own character, and for another, what would the point of it be?

If you have a God who is both omnipotent and omniscient, predestination cannot be escaped as being a logical consequence.

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We're not talking about predestination with this. We're talking about the possibility of the predetermination of every last action. PreDESTINATION refers to our eternal destiny and it only.

Albion said:

...if it were as you want,

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It is not a case of what I want. I would quite like perpetual motion to be possible, but unfortunately it isn't.

and all of this would be nothing but unthinking robotic motions.

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It would make us what we are - creatures whose actions are determined by the (God created) situations we find ourselves in.

OK? That doesn't mean that he decided to force Hitler to do what he did. That makes no sense on any level, if you ask me. For one, God would be endorsing evil and so denying his own character, and for another, what would the point of it be?

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It means that he created a universe in which he knew that Hitler would do what he did, and he did that in preference to creating a universe in which Hitler did other than he did. In other words, through his choice to create a particular universe, God predetermined Hitler's fate. And everybody else's for that matter.

We're not talking about predestination with this. We're talking about the possibility of the predetermination of every last action. PreDESTINATION refers to our eternal destiny and it only.

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The one implies the other. If Hitler's actions were predetermined (as they were) then so was his eternal destiny.

TillICollapse said:

Do you believe that "God" Himself is subject to determinism ? IOW, anything God chooses to do, is already pre-determined and He cannot make a different choice ? Thus, He just has to continue to play out the role He's forseen in advance, not being able to stop Himself ?

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God is the only completely free agent. His actions are not determined by anything outside of himself, whereas ours most certainly are. Given the fact of gravity, you are not free to jump off of the Eiffel Tower without unfortunate consequences. God does not exist in a universe where he is constrained by its properties; he is a universe unto himself.

lesliedellow said:

It is not a case of what I want. I would quite like perpetual motion to be possible, but unfortunately it isn't.

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Then let's leave "want" out of it and say that if your theory were correct it would necessarily mean that every event, thought, and action anywhere would be done robotically. I think that your advocacy of this theory properly should be called something that you do "want" or else you wouldn't be advocating it, but in any case, that 's what it means. You cannot say that foreknowledge means predeterminism...but only with regard to those things that God foresees which interest you.

It would make us what we are

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No, it wouldn't.

However, there's no point in going back and forth with this, so if you don't see it, then you don't, and that's that.

Albion said:

Then let's leave "want" out of it and say that if your theory were correct it would necessarily mean that every event, thought, and action anywhere would be done robotically. I think that your advocacy of this theory properly should be called something that you do "want" or else you wouldn't be advocating it, but in any case, that 's what it means. You cannot say that foreknowledge means predeterminism...but only with regard to those things that God foresees which interest you.

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I can, and I do, say that foreknowledge implies preordination of all things, and I also say the God's attributes of omnipotence and omniscience directly imply it.

Describing us as robots serves no useful purpose. We are what we are - creatures which act in accordance with our wishes, and, because our actions are in accordance with our wishes, we are held responsible for our actions. That those wishes are an intrinsic part of the universe which God created, with full knowledge of what creating that particular universe would mean for the eternal destiny of each and every one of his creatures, is neither here nor there.

lesliedellow said:

I can, and I do, say that foreknowledge implies preordination of all things, and I also say the God's attributes of omnipotence and omniscience directly imply it.

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First, the term is predetermination, not predestination. Second, if you do accept it and all that it necessarily implies, how do you respond to my comment about it rendering every event and action robotic and automatic?

Describing us as robots serves no useful purpose.

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But that's what your theory means! I'd use another word if I could think of a good synonym but that's what we're dealing with so long as we're discussing your proposition.

We are what we are - creatures which act in accordance with our wishes, and, because our actions are in accordance with our wishes, we are held responsible for our actions.

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But that is ruled out by your theory. You have said that everything is mandated by God. There can be, under those circumstances, no free will, human judgment, morality, decision making, analysis...none of that. And you cannot have it both ways by saying that God's foreknowledge means that he scripts everything but we still have the ability to make choices, etc. If we did, it couldn't be that God had predetermined our actions, thoughts, and values.

This is a tough one.

I would say, perfect pre knowledge certainly could support hard determinism, but does it prove it without question, I would say no.

Albion said:

First, the term is predetermination,

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I said preordination, and it is a perfectly good word.

But that's what your theory means!

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no it doesn't. God can predetermine our actions because he knows how we will act in any given situation, and the situations we find ourselves in are of his making. Our decisions are still ours.