Does Lucifer Have Free Will?

Uber Genius · Jan 29, 2019

cvanwey said:
Whether you want to address my blank assertion, or the assertion of a 'resurrection', in either case, you cannot truly falsify either claim.

So again, your strawman aside, and your lack of any research aside, let's see what is doing the work in your statement above.

What were Abraham Lincoln's reasons for issuing the Emancipation Proclamation?

Who was Julius Caesar and what were his reasons for marching across the Rubicon?

In both cases what can be known is a result of testimony and memory, but not eyewitness testimony as Plutarch gives the fullest account of Julius almost 120 years after Julius' death.

What is going on here? How do we "Know" any historical claim is true? In both cases above the eyewitnesses are long since dead.

So why do we even study history? It is the case, if we accept your premise about arguing from ignorance because they can't be falsified by contravening claims to the contrary by other authorities.

Congrats... you just destroyed all history of events before 1900!

Falsification is not therefore part of the epistemological standard for history. Historical claims are determined by abduction. That is the data from sources is brought together, and various hypotheses are assembled. Then over time the inference that best explains the data rises to the top.

BTW does that method sound familiar? It is used in science! Darwinian evolution is a claim based on abductive reasoning.

So let's apply your "Falsification," principle to the area of knowledge most associated with that method...science.

String theory
Multiverse theory
Inflation theory
Many-worlds in Quantum theory

All are "UNFALSIFIABLE."

Great Job.

In order to eliminate even considering the best explanation of the historical data surrounding the resurrection, you have decided to change the rules and haplessly eliminated all history before 1990, and the central thesis' in the field of cosmology, cosmogony, and quantum mechanics.

OOPS!

That is a lot of poisoning the wells.

Uber Genius · Jan 29, 2019

cvanwey said:
Re-read the OP. The Bible states as such... I'm simply holding all believers of the Bible's assertions to their beliefs of these assertions.

Your strawman would have taken you 30-seconds on the internet to realize your claim in the OP was false.

Real claims are taken seriously. But you got caught making it up.
No Christian scholar makes the claim you made in the OP.

Uber Genius · Jan 29, 2019

cvanwey said:
Which would beg the question, God does not allow the imitation of a person claiming to be the Messiah, but somehow allows all other 'evil' in the world, perpetuated in origin by Lucifer?

I thought I would respond to the next fallacy above.

Is it really either/or?

In fact a cursory review of the gospels demonstrates that there had been many other individuals claiming to be the Messiah. So God can limit man's evil, and Satan's evil, but allow other free actions.

The reason Jesus was more successful and differentiated from false messiahs was that he fulfilled numerous specific prophecies, and he did miracles that other false messiahs weren't able to do. Finally, he had supernatural testimony directly from God, look up "This is my son in whom I am well-pleased." Look up the transfiguration.

So you have commited what is called the either/or fallacy above. But we can think further and find that God has a dog in the hunt, so to speak. He wants to reveal Jesus as messiah, and so God can freely act to overcome Satan's evil, and man's evil, and other created beings evil. There are battle's recorded in scripture (see Rev. 12) Evil beings rebel against God and his angels. The angels have to fight these beings. So God is not some passive agent in scripture. He is active and his angels are active and humans are active. So Christian disciples are those who destroy Satan's kingdom. They do so by preaching the gospel to the poor, caring for the poor and sick, healing the sick, casting out demons, bringing God's goodness to bear in their own sphere of influence.

All we need to do to blow up your either or scenario above is suggest that God cares about the outcome and is active.

cvanwey · Jan 29, 2019

Uber Genius said:
So again, your strawman aside, and your lack of any research aside, let's see what is doing the work in your statement above.

What were Abraham Lincoln's reasons for issuing the Emancipation Proclamation?

Who was Julius Caesar and what were his reasons for marching across the Rubicon?

In both cases what can be known is a result of testimony and memory, but not eyewitness testimony as Plutarch gives the fullest account of Julius almost 120 years after Julius' death.

What is going on here? How do we "Know" any historical claim is true? In both cases above the eyewitnesses are long since dead.

So why do we even study history? It is the case, if we accept your premise about arguing from ignorance because they can't be falsified by contravening claims to the contrary by other authorities.

Congrats... you just destroyed all history of events before 1900!

Falsification is not therefore part of the epistemological standard for history. Historical claims are determined by abduction. That is the data from sources is brought together, and various hypotheses are assembled. Then over time the inference that best explains the data rises to the top.

BTW does that method sound familiar? It is used in science! Darwinian evolution is a claim based on abductive reasoning.

So let's apply your "Falsification," principle to the area of knowledge most associated with that method...science.

String theory
Multiverse theory
Inflation theory
Many-worlds in Quantum theory

All are "UNFALSIFIABLE."

Great Job.

In order to eliminate even considering the best explanation of the historical data surrounding the resurrection, you have decided to change the rules and haplessly eliminated all history before 1990, and the central thesis' in the field of cosmology, cosmogony, and quantum mechanics.

OOPS!

That is a lot of poisoning the wells.

For someone whom seems to pride them self on rubber stamping others about fallacious reasoning, you sure seem to swan dive head first into that arena yourself

The Bible asserts the following (yes, no)?:

Does Satan exist?
Does Satan have above human capabilities?
Does Satan attempt to manipulate humans?
Does Satan have the ability to mimic 'good'?
Does God permit free will?
Does God allow Satan to continue tormenting and tempting humans?
Is Satan's goal to deceive as many humans as possible?

If you've answered yes to most of these, which would be yes, because if you do not, you are going against the Bible, please explain....

And BTW, I really don't contest historical claims, unless they are supernatural.

The same reason I just accept Alexander's attested claims (for various reasons), (just short of him claiming to be the the son of Zeus)

cvanwey · Jan 29, 2019

Uber Genius said:
In fact a cursory review of the gospels demonstrates that there had been many other individuals claiming to be the Messiah. So God can limit man's evil, and Satan's evil, but allow other free actions.

Let's go down this rationale then...

If God places hard limitations upon Satan's complete free will, why restrict him from impersonating someone by the name of 'Jesus', whom performs miracles, gets many to follow him, and 'fulfills prophecy'; but somehow allows Satan to 'reek havoc' in many/most other ways - (as evidence by all that has happened in the world, starting with and including original sin)?

I'm not God, so God could do whatever He chooses of course. However, this appears inconsistent, when such a being ALSO claims to be 'loving'.

I could also extend my questioning about Muhammad really. Did God allow Satan to impersonate Muhammad, to get well over a billion strong to follow suite? Does God limit imitation of this 'false prophet'?

Your rationale seems to forge down the road of, " the problem of 'evil' "

Furthermore, when you assert He fulfilled prophecy, I'm simply going to state... On what basis did you discern that conclusion?

Uber Genius said:
They do so by preaching the gospel to the poor, caring for the poor and sick,

Many do this, whom are not supernatural, so...?

Uber Genius said:
healing the sick, casting out demons

He did? Because the Bible says so? Is that all it takes to assure He is supernatural? Is such an assertion on the same level as claiming He died on a cross? Really???? Again, remember Alexander the Great... It's not hard to believe he was born, fought in war, and died of fever; as told in antiquity. But the claim of being of Zeus transcends another dimension

Uber Genius said:
All we need to do to blow up your either or scenario above is suggest that God cares about the outcome and is active.

Please try again...

cvanwey · Jan 29, 2019

Uber Genius said:
Your strawman would have taken you 30-seconds on the internet to realize your claim in the OP was false.

Real claims are taken seriously. But you got caught making it up.
No Christian scholar makes the claim you made in the OP.

You are missing the entire purpose of this exercise sir. Please re-read the OP, yet again. Trust me, it will sink in eventually

Furthermore, a derivative of the argumentum ad populum defense does not hold any water here either... What does it matter if said scholars argue for this position or not? Just refute the points Hint hint, you can't. Because it's not falsifiable, just like the many assertions you believe true from the very same book I question.

Hence, why I view the Bible likely false for the testable humans discoveries, which seem to conflict with some of the testable asserted claims.

My point here is to merely demonstrate that many here, including you, assert unfalsifiable claims.

And now, I'm having fun doing it, because you cannot disprove what I say. It feels good to play on the other side of the fence, for a change.

So here we go... Jesus was actually the Devil. Muhammad was actually the Devil.

SinoBen · Feb 6, 2019

cvanwey said:
Let's go down this rationale then...

If God places hard limitations upon Satan's complete free will, why restrict him from impersonating someone by the name of 'Jesus', whom performs miracles, gets many to follow him, and 'fulfills prophecy'; but somehow allows Satan to 'reek havoc' in many/most other ways - (as evidence by all that has happened in the world, starting with and including original sin)?

I'm not God, so God could do whatever He chooses of course. However, this appears inconsistent, when such a being ALSO claims to be 'loving'.

I haven't read much more beyond the OP, and as I can see even on this page things are not clear.
So I'll try.

First, supernatural beings like Satan does have "free will". But you say "complete free will". No this is not agreed, God's creation does not have complete free will like God, there are rules and restrictions in place. God also attaches responsibility to that limited freedom. God places humans on Earth with similar free will, but it should be obvious it is not an unrestricted one, we cannot choose to fly or float when jumping off a tall building for example.

Satan can impersonate to fool humans, but God gave a couple of defences. A discerning brain, this is proven by your own ability to be sceptical. God makes available His own Spirit, communicating to us for example though our conscience. You may have "seared" this one if you continue to ignore it, I don't know.

Oh I read somewhere that you asserted that Satan is omnipresent. If that is what you say then No I don't agree. Satan is not omnipresent.

cvanwey · Feb 8, 2019

SinoBen said:
I haven't read much more beyond the OP, and as I can see even on this page things are not clear.
So I'll try.

You might want to then. Because a few points were addressed...

SinoBen said:
First, supernatural beings like Satan does have "free will". But you say "complete free will". No this is not agreed, God's creation does not have complete free will like God, there are rules and restrictions in place. God also attaches responsibility to that limited freedom. God places humans on Earth with similar free will, but it should be obvious it is not an unrestricted one, we cannot choose to fly or float when jumping off a tall building for example.

This is where it may have been better to read the responses before you responded

My points are as such...

- Satan has the ability to deceive humans.

- Satan has the ability to transform his appearance.

- Satan appears to have the ability to perform supernatural (above mortal human) acts.

- No one would have known what the real Messiah looked like. It's not like there would be a photo prior to His real arrival to compare against.

- Satan has to ability to deceive many people at once. Otherwise, 99.99999% of all humans would go their entire lives never being contacted by Satan, as Satan would not have time to deceive each and every individual during their natural life span. Meaning, most would go not tempted by evil. And yes, you could then claim Satan has millions/billions of demons to do his dirty work, but then you must prove the existence of not only Satan, but demons as well. A rather large task...

In acknowledgement to the above, then please address the question below in red.

- Does God monitor and/or possibly limit each and every action Satan has the ABILITY to perform? It's a yes/no question with apparent damning implications, either way you answer.

SinoBen said:
Satan can impersonate to fool humans, but God gave a couple of defences.

There would be no testable way then for humans to distinguish the actual difference between a man named Jesus, whom stated He was God and is God, versus a complete imposture, whom impersonates good, and lies at will. Satan may have impersonated Jesus, Muhammad, and every other prophet, to trick most into worshiping the wrong God. I would assume Satan would be smart enough to employ such a method. This way, billions would shoot themselves in their own foot, by sending themselves to hell, by breaking the very first commandments in which the real God laid forth Satan is merely working smart, not hard He sets back and watches billions worship the wrong entities, sending themselves to hell without further coaxing from evil.

Again, Satan has the ability to deceive, perform tricks, impersonate, and no photo images to compare against, etc...

SinoBen said:
A discerning brain, this is proven by your own ability to be sceptical.

Well, I'm skeptical of the very person whom claimed He was God. How might I test for this???? And please keep in mind the points made directly above

SinoBen said:
God makes available His own Spirit, communicating to us for example though our conscience. You may have "seared" this one if you continue to ignore it, I don't know.

Many earnestly and genuinely think there is either no God, or worship a differing God/Gods. Not sure where you are going with this attempted point?

SinoBen said:
Oh I read somewhere that you asserted that Satan is omnipresent. If that is what you say then No I don't agree. Satan is not omnipresent.

Then you must lay down a case that Satan has millions, or more, of demons, to tempt each and every human while alive. Good luck with that And as the human population will most likely increase moving forward, the existing army of demons may need to steadily increase to keep up with the demand.?.?.?

SinoBen · Feb 8, 2019

cvanwey said:
You might want to then. Because a few points were addressed...

I don't want to waste time doing the quote unquote stuff but you can see my response to your questions.

- Satan has the ability to deceive humans.
agree but only in so far as you have given him the power to do so

- Satan has the ability to transform his appearance.
agree but over rated

- Satan appears to have the ability to perform supernatural (above mortal human) acts.
agree but he is a defeated foe in Jesus Christ

- No one would have known what the real Messiah looked like. It's not like there would be a photo prior to His real arrival to compare against.
The Messiah is discerned, recognised and acknowledged not by facial recognition but by his actions through the confirmation of prophecies (miracles are part of this) and the witness of the God the Father. Many witnesses and disciples knew what the real Messiah looked like after they recognised it in the works of Jesus the carpenter.

- Satan has to ability to deceive many people at once. Otherwise, 99.99999% of all humans would go their entire lives never being contacted by Satan, as Satan would not have time to deceive each and every individual during their natural life span. Meaning, most would go not tempted by evil. And yes, you could then claim Satan has millions/billions of demons to do his dirty work, but then you must prove the existence of not only Satan, but demons as well. A rather large task...

This is a non-sequitur. A comedian can make people laugh at once by telling a joke in front of an audience or on TV etc. They in turn can tell the same joke and make many others laugh. It doesn't make the comedian omnipresent. Not only this, one of the things that humans are inherently predisposed to is... laughter.

- Does God monitor and/or possibly limit each and every action Satan has the ABILITY to perform? It's a yes/no question with apparent damning implications, either way you answer.

Yes

There would be no testable way then for humans to distinguish the actual difference between a man named Jesus, whom stated He was God and is God, versus a complete imposture, whom impersonates good, and lies at will. Satan may have impersonated Jesus, Muhammad, and every other prophet, to trick most into worshiping the wrong God. I would assume Satan would be smart enough to employ such a method. This way, billions would shoot themselves in their own foot, by sending themselves to hell, by breaking the very first commandments in which the real God laid forth Satan is merely working smart, not hard He sets back and watches billions worship the wrong entities, sending themselves to hell without further coaxing from evil.

Yes there are tests and you can start with the fruit of the Holy Spirit. You can also read 1 John 4

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Again, Satan has the ability to deceive, perform tricks, impersonate, and no photo images to compare against, etc...

If you are looking for a photo ID you are barking up the wrong tree. You are not the first person to make this claim (Matthew 12)

Jesus and Beelzebul
22 Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23 All the people were astonished and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”

25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Well, I'm skeptical of the very person whom claimed He was God. How might I test for this???? And please keep in mind the points made directly above
Good, be sceptical, but keep an open mind. I already gave you some ideas about tests. Check on the basis of fulfilment of prophecies. Test by what Jesus said and did. Test by the fruit of the Spirit. God is God of the living, you are still living, so go ahead and ask Him with a serious heart. Remember though that He is God and not your slave, but you can trust God to give you an answer. He never fails on a promise and this is the promise for you:

7“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
Matthew 7

Many earnestly and genuinely think there is either no God, or worship a differing God/Gods. Not sure where you are going with this attempted point?

The conscience of a person will tell him what is right and what is wrong. If anyone is ever genuine about God, I have no doubt the above promise will be fulfilled. I am not talking about those who are genuine about the god of self, or the god of anything else other than selfless love.

Then you must lay down a case that Satan has millions, or more, of demons, to tempt each and every human while alive. Good luck with that And as the human population will most likely increase moving forward, the existing army of demons may need to steadily increase to keep up with the demand.?.?.?

No, I have already illustrated why that is not so.

cvanwey · Feb 11, 2019

Valiant effort! You appear to agree with my points. However, provide nothing further to rebuttal reasons not to plainly concede that Jesus, Mohammad, and all other claimed Gods/prophets were nothing more than claimed magical men in history's past...

SinoBen said:
agree but only in so far as you have given him the power to do so

"I" don't give Satan any power. 'Satan' has the ability to deceive. If Satan has the power to trick, then the recipient of such tricks would not know. Hence, the deception. Otherwise, if someone knew such a presentation was from Satan, they would not be deceived, they would instead be watching Satan fail in his attempt in trickery.

SinoBen said:
agree but over rated

This response makes little sense...

Satan either directly or indirectly was responsible for the 'fall of man' ; 'original sin'. Furthermore, the Bible speaks of the necessity for later redemption for such acts.

SinoBen said:
agree but he is a defeated foe in Jesus Christ

Again, this response makes little sense...

Satan appears to be able to perform tricks. Healing leapers, turning water into wine, and all the like, is that of such tricks or magic.

SinoBen said:
The Messiah is discerned, recognised and acknowledged not by facial recognition but by his actions through the confirmation of prophecies (miracles are part of this) and the witness of the God the Father. Many witnesses and disciples knew what the real Messiah looked like after they recognised it in the works of Jesus the carpenter.

The entire point of Lucifer's trickery, is to mimic a Messiah. I would assume Satan knows the Bible. Of course Satan would imitate a Jewish carpenter. Otherwise, the trick would not be a trick. No one would know what this person looked like. Such an individual would be judged based upon his acts. And since photography was not around, all would just assume this individual was it - in a Jewish carpenter whom performed tricks and claimed to be the one and only gateway to heaven.

SinoBen said:
This is a non-sequitur. A comedian can make people laugh at once by telling a joke in front of an audience or on TV etc. They in turn can tell the same joke and make many others laugh. It doesn't make the comedian omnipresent. Not only this, one of the things that humans are inherently predisposed to is... laughter.

False... This is not a non sequitur...

Each and every evil thought or action, is said to be led by Satan, or one of Satan's minions. Satan is always tempting humans. If Satan is not omnipresent, Satan would either need to tempt each individual, and then pause time to tempt all others. Or, have all his demon cronies disperse. So which one is it?

SinoBen said:
- Does God monitor and/or possibly limit each and every action Satan has the ABILITY to perform? It's a yes/no question with apparent damning implications, either way you answer.

SinoBen said:
Yes

Okay, then please explain why God allows Satan to tempt many humans to rape, kill, kidnap, torture, etc? You know, the whole 'problem of evil' thing... But then, not allow Satan to impersonate a Messiah named Jesus?

SinoBen said:

Yes there are tests

Click to expand...

SinoBen said:
and you can start with the fruit of the Holy Spirit. You can also read 1 John 4

SinoBen said:
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

By reading the very passages Satan inspired? Remember, the NT is inspired by Satan, whom impersonated a Messiah. Please try again.

SinoBen said:
If you are looking for a photo ID you are barking up the wrong tree. You are not the first person to make this claim (Matthew 12)

SinoBen said:
Jesus and Beelzebul
22 Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23 All the people were astonished and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”

SinoBen said:
25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

By reading the very passages Satan inspired? Remember, the NT is inspired by Satan, whom impersonated a Messiah. Please try again.

SinoBen said:
Good, be sceptical, but keep an open mind. I already gave you some ideas about tests. Check on the basis of fulfilment of prophecies. Test by what Jesus said and did. Test by the fruit of the Spirit. God is God of the living, you are still living, so go ahead and ask Him with a serious heart. Remember though that He is God and not your slave, but you can trust God to give you an answer. He never fails on a promise and this is the promise for you:

SinoBen said:
7“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

SinoBen said:
Matthew 7

By reading the very passages Satan inspired? Remember, the NT is inspired by Satan, whom impersonated a Messiah. Please try again.

SinoBen said:
The conscience of a person will tell him what is right and what is wrong. If anyone is ever genuine about God, I have no doubt the above promise will be fulfilled. I am not talking about those who are genuine about the god of self, or the god of anything else other than selfless love.

You've missed the entire point of my prior response. Many are earnest that a differing God is the real God. So how does your response help?

SinoBen said:
No, I have already illustrated why that is not so.

I'm afraid it looks as if you have not. But again, a valiant effort.

SinoBen · Feb 11, 2019

cvanwey said:
Valiant effort! You appear to agree with my points.

I'm afraid you have assumed much too much in all your points. I don't want to restate them.

I mean for example how did you come to assume that Satan would know to come as a Carpenter to mimic the Messiah? Even the Jews didn't expect it. The Pharisees were attributing the works of Jesus to Beelzebub, exactly what you are doing, so you can read up His response for yourself. But you assume that the whole NT was inspired by Satan. I don't see how I can reason with you.

cvanwey · Feb 11, 2019

SinoBen said:
I'm afraid you have assumed much too much in all your points. I don't want to restate them.

I mean for example how did you come to assume that Satan would know to come as a Carpenter to mimic the Messiah? Even the Jews didn't expect it. The Pharisees were attributing the works of Jesus to Beelzebub, exactly what you are doing, so you can read up His response for yourself. But you assume that the whole NT was inspired by Satan. I don't see how I can reason with you.

Out of everything said in my last response, you only addressed the 'carpenter' thing?..?.?...?.?.?...?

Let me consolidate my points. This way, you can easily defeat my 'lack in reasoning'...

- Satan tricks many. And by trick, I mean a human could not distinguish if a voice was from Satan, God, or other.

- Satan performed the biggest trick ever, to induce 'original sin'; in which God felt He later needed to rectify

- Satan can perform magic, and tell humans he is God. Many would believe him, especially after seeing him performing tricks/magic/miracles.

- You are the one whom stated 'Many witnesses and disciples knew what the real Messiah looked like after they recognised it in the works of Jesus the carpenter.' In which I simply responded stating he mimicked a Jewish carpenter, performing tricks, and claiming he is the gateway to heaven.

- God restricts Satan's ability for Satan to claim he is God/Jesus, but somehow allows Satan to reek havoc, in the way of instigating murder, rape, torture, child abuse, etc.. ('the problem of evil')?

So to reiterate, if Satan has the ability to perform all such tasks, but God does not allow Satan to mimic Jesus, then please only answer the question above in red.

SinoBen · Feb 11, 2019

cvanwey said:
Out of everything said in my last response, you only addressed the 'carpenter' thing?..?.?...?.?.?...?

False

I addressed 1. the carpenter thing, 2. the attribution of the works of Messiah to satan 3. the attribution of the NT to satan.

cvanwey said:
Let me consolidate my points. This way, you can easily defeat my 'lack in reasoning'...

If it's so easy why are we bothering? Are you just baiting me? I'll give you one more chance.

cvanwey said:
- Satan tricks many. And by trick, I mean a human could not distinguish if a voice was from Satan, God, or other.

False.

Did Adam and Eve hear from God? Did Job hear from God? Did Enoch hear from God? Did Noah hear from God? Did Abraham hear from God? Did Isaac hear from God? Did Jacob hear from God? Did David? Did the prophets? And many others. All in the OT - read all about it. A human could distinguish the voice of God but many refuse to acknowledge Him.

By the way, the Bible is the word of God and is useful for a lot of things, one of them is to help you distinguish the voice of God. If you attribute the Bible to satan, it's not surprising what the conclusion will be.

cvanwey said:
- Satan performed the biggest trick ever, to induce 'original sin'; in which God felt He later needed to rectify

False.

God already foreknew what would happen long before all creation, it's not an afterthought.

cvanwey said:
- Satan can perform magic, and tell humans he is God. Many would believe him, especially after seeing him performing tricks/magic/miracles.

What's your point? We all know there are Satanist and all kinds of ungodliness.

cvanwey said:
- You are the one whom stated

cvanwey said:
'Many witnesses and disciples knew what the real Messiah looked like after they recognised it in the works of Jesus the carpenter.' In which I simply responded stating he mimicked a Jewish carpenter, performing tricks, and claiming he is the gateway to heaven.

You are not the first person to say so, I already told you about the Pharisees, you know, from the book you attribute to the same entity supposedly involved in the mimicking.

cvanwey said:
- God restricts Satan's ability for Satan to claim he is God/Jesus, but somehow allows Satan to reek havoc, in the way of instigating murder, rape, torture, child abuse, etc.. ('the problem of evil')?

I didn't know that havoc is associated with strong unpleasant smell.

I am sure "the problem of evil" is already in a Forum somewhere. However, in a nutshell, I would say that to His creation, both the heavenly beings as well as His earthly imagers, God did give "free will", but with some restrictions, so much so that evil itself is constrained. Satan plays a part in lying, but covetousness rises up from our own human nature for evil to be realised. But again, I reject the proposition that Satan must be present everywhere for humans to realise evil. Humans are fallen in nature, what satan and his minions may do is ingrain us in that state and take us further and further from acknowledging Truth. Satan and his minions prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. The thing is, for those in Christ Jesus, we resist and devils flee.

What satan does is tell the same old lie he did to Adam and Eve... "no, you will not surely die" (there are multitude cycles of rebirth), "no there is no such thing as God" (out of nothing we evolved and ... return to nothing), "no you are just star dust and will return just as star dust" etc.. ('the great delusion')

cvanwey said:
So to reiterate, if Satan has the ability to perform all such tasks, but God does not allow Satan to mimic Jesus, then please only answer the question above in red.

Like a moth to a candle, so satan to a place of honour and power. Yet Christ came as a servant, enduring contempt and death on the cross. It's not that "God does not allow", but rather Satan would not.

Satan exalts himself as God.
God the Father exalts Jesus and bestows on him the name that is above every name

cvanwey · Feb 11, 2019

SinoBen said:
Are you just baiting me? I'll give you one more chance

The purpose of this forum is for believers to defend their faith. If you wish to demonstrate truth in your believed assertions, please provide evidence accordingly.

SinoBen said:
False.

Did Adam and Eve hear from God? Did Job hear from God? Did Enoch hear from God? Did Noah hear from God? Did Abraham hear from God? Did Isaac hear from God? Did Jacob hear from God? Did David? Did the prophets? And many others. All in the OT - read all about it. A human could distinguish the voice of God but many refuse to acknowledge Him.

By the way, the Bible is the word of God and is useful for a lot of things, one of them is to help you distinguish the voice of God. If you attribute the Bible to satan, it's not surprising what the conclusion will be.

Yes, all of them could have been hearing from God. And yes, this is all from the OT. However, the entire point of this thread is that Satan later mimicked a magical man named 'Jesus' to get millions/billions to worship the incorrect God. Thus, all of the above does not relate to my queries.

'Satan is the reason the NT exists'.

SinoBen said:
False.

God already foreknew what would happen long before all creation, it's not an afterthought.

It's debatable as to whether God knew that man was already going to betray Him or not prior to creation, (using passages within the OT both for and against such a position of already knowing); but we can leave that for another thread altogether...

My point is to counter your prior notion, (from post #69), that what Satan's acts were 'over rated'.

My point is that it was big enough of a deal for God to smite humans, and state He later feels the need to rectify it. Meaning, Satan has the ability to turn the tables on God's plan. Unless God's plan, all along, was to create the events which later unfolded, which again appears bazaar....

SinoBen said:
What's your point? We all know there are Satanist and all kinds of ungodliness.

The point is simple. Satan comes down in human form, performs magic, people see this, and attribute his acts as a Messiah, especially when Satan lies about being a Messiah. Pretty simple really.

SinoBen said:
You are not the first person to say so, I already told you about the Pharisees, you know, from the book you attribute to the same entity supposedly involved in the mimicking.

Again, we both agree Satan can lie, perform magic, and mimic others. Humans are limited in their abilities, as we are fallible in our senses. Being tricked would be easy, especially for someone like Satan. I say the NT is established from the likes of Satan's plan. I am not addressing the OT. However, 'anything written in the NT is attributed from Satan's actions'. All recordings of such, again in the NT, are referring to Satan in disguise. If Satan has free will, God would not stop him. If God does not allow Satan to do so, then why does God allow Satan to instigate many to rape, abuse children, murder, and all other acts also against God's will?

Again, Satan has the ability to do as such. If God stops him, then why does God not stop anything else Satan does to humans?

Nothing from your response below acknowledges this question.

SinoBen · Feb 11, 2019

cvanwey said:
The purpose of this forum is for believers to defend their faith. If you wish to demonstrate truth in your believed assertions, please provide evidence accordingly.

What kind of "evidence" do you accept? Do you accept the testimony of the OT?

Moral Orel · Feb 12, 2019

SinoBen said:
If you are looking for a photo ID you are barking up the wrong tree. You are not the first person to make this claim (Matthew 12)

Jesus and Beelzebul
22 Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23 All the people were astonished and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”

25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Jesus' argument here seems to be a bad one that I've always wondered about. He assumes that if Satan drives out a demon, that it's a real fight between the two entities. The man could have been possessed by a "shill" if you will. Imagine a guy who has his buddy pretend to mug a woman just so that the original guy can come to the rescue, scare off the "mugger" and then hope for a date from the woman now that he is her "hero". Why couldn't it be something akin to this? Can a demon possess a person just so that Satan can come along and "cast him out" to play the hero? If not, why not?

cvanwey · Feb 12, 2019

SinoBen said:
What kind of "evidence" do you accept? Do you accept the testimony of the OT?

It appears the OT makes many predictions. How do you know Satan did not come down to 'fulfill' such 'prophecy'? How could you distinguish the actual difference between a sham, versus a legitimate Messiah? In all honesty, you most likely could not. Again, as we both agree, Satan has the ability to lie, change form, and perform magic; all the necessary credentials to trick billions into worshiping the incorrect entity, and ultimately damning them to hell for breaking the first commandment.

SinoBen · Feb 12, 2019

cvanwey said:
It appears the OT makes many predictions. How do you know Satan did not come down to 'fulfill' such 'prophecy'? How could you distinguish the actual difference between a sham, versus a legitimate Messiah? In all honesty, you most likely could not. Again, as we both agree, Satan has the ability to lie, change form, and perform magic; all the necessary credentials to trick billions into worshiping the incorrect entity, and ultimately damning them to hell for breaking the first commandment.

The NT also makes many predictions.
I ask again
What kind of "evidence" do you accept? Do you accept the testimony of the OT?

SinoBen · Feb 12, 2019

Nicholas Deka said:
Jesus' argument here seems to be a bad one that I've always wondered about. He assumes that if Satan drives out a demon, that it's a real fight between the two entities. The man could have been possessed by a "shill" if you will. Imagine a guy who has his buddy pretend to mug a woman just so that the original guy can come to the rescue, scare off the "mugger" and then hope for a date from the woman now that he is her "hero". Why couldn't it be something akin to this? Can a demon possess a person just so that Satan can come along and "cast him out" to play the hero? If not, why not?

Hi Nicholas, thanks for the question.

You have pre-empted my answer to the OP through your question. I'll reframe it to the real question: In the miracles and in all of Christ' work, who gets the glory? Please re-read the Matthew 12:22-32 passage again with that question in mind. You will see that the glory goes to the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the Father Matthew 10:20

In fact try reading from the beginning of Matthew and read with that single question in mind (who gets the glory) you will see that Jesus' answer to the Pharisees is powerful. Jesus glorifies the Father not himself.

Matthew 5:14
“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Check out also the Lord's prayer Matthew 6:9-13

cvanwey · Feb 12, 2019

SinoBen said:
The NT also makes many predictions.
I ask again
What kind of "evidence" do you accept? Do you accept the testimony of the OT?

You are asking the wrong question sir. Why? Because I could accept the OT wholeheartedly, like an Orthodox Jew, and still reject Jesus as a claimed Messiah. Even if I accepted every claim from the OT as fact, I would still need to play 'connect the dots', in order for all such claims and statements to tie directly to Jesus, the claimed Christ.

Now are you going to address the many points I presented? I will start again.

I assert that Jesus is nothing more than Lucifer in disguise.

I have laid forth many points, in which you agreed.

So how might one distinguish an imposture from the real deal?

Does Lucifer Have Free Will?

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