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Does it even mean anything to be a 'Calvinist'?

Tomyris

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Hi,

I suffer from an antipathy to the word 'Calvinist' - one I believe I would share with Jean Caulvin himself, as he viewed his beliefs as the means to beholding the glory of God rather than a self-defined theological system. In this day of five point and four point and even lower point Calvinists, does the term really mean anything? With the broadness of approach under which people can be claimed to be Calvinist, is it still useful? In some quarters, particularly in discussions with Catholics, it seems to be opprobrious with recessive results. Rather, think I, ye should call yourselves Christians and leave it at that.

What think ye?

Tomyris
 

gord44

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You should check out the thread a bit down the page on this forum that JM posted about a book called Killing Calvinism.

As JM eloquently put it in the closing posts, the book points out that one should look at the gospel through the windshield of Calvinism and not look at the windshield itself.

So no, one should not really be a Calvinist, but a Christian. But in today's Christianity, sometimes these labels are used and sadly needed.
 
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It means that God makes all the choices as to His family members. He adopts them; He advances them; He keeps them; He always looks at them through the filter of love; His sovereign will is behind everything and will not be over-ruled by circumstance. It almost gets to the image of a benevolent puppeteer.

"Holiness" presents God as a gentleman Who respects choice and who wants family members who have been tested and remain loyal. His "smile" is an ongoing objective that spurs one on through the testings to greater zeal and obedience. Wilful rebellion remains possible however at increasing peril to one's soul. Although no man or circumstance can pluck a child out of His hand, my own stubbornness or waywardness just might. Particular attention is drawn to 2 Corinthians 7:1.

I find myself after much re-evaluation drawn to the latter persuasion. Some people will be quick to respond that I have a problem with "works". I have sifted that one through already.

Bottom line we are all still trusting in the sinless Galilean ministry, the blood of the cross, the mystery of the empty tomb, the comfort and guidance of the indwelling Spirit, the "North Star" of love (1 Corinthians 13 and John's First Epistle).

Consider the following:

A Study in Perseverance


I am back at my old haunt for a Sunday afternoon. University of Waterloo Porter Library. This used to be a favourite pass time for Hilary and me. It was free and stimulating and launched many a venture into missions, Christian biography, history and topical Bible study.

These comments relate to my recent about-turn from the Calvinist doctrine of eternal security.The scripture which "gave my head a shake" is James 5: 19, 20:

19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

My research today puts me on a surer rock of resolve to acknowledge the importance of personal responsibility and perseverance.

The "arguments against" in a nutshell are as follows:
-God could never dis-adopt.
-God's "gift" of a soul to His Son is never revocable.
-Salvation is all of grace.
-James' epistle is all about works and effort and never should have made the Canon cut.
-The one among the brethren erring from the truth was a pretender, without real assurance of salvation.
-The word "converteth" is to be likened to the quote of Jesus to Peter at Luke 22:32. Jesus had prayed for Peter, and it was inevitable that as one of the believers God had given to Jesus, Peter would turn about from his error.
-Saving a soul from death does not refer to spiritual death again, but rather to the chastening consequences of intentional sin leading to illness and premature physical death. Reference is made to 1 Corinthians 11: 29, 30 and the consequence of partaking of the Communion meal unworthily.
-The soul being saved from death is, in keeping with Jewish thinking on good works, the soul of the rescuing brother and not the erring one.
-The New Testament admonitions to persevere all have to do with quality of fellowship and ultimate "crowns" for the one who overcomes and perseveres. The wavering saint may find himself saved "yet so as by fire". (1 Corinthians 3:13-15)

Full in the face of these arguments I find the passage in James 5 and another at 1 Timothy 4:

16Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

An old reference Bible with good marginal notes suggests other New Testament entries on perseverance as a continuing exercise and responsibility:

Mat. 24:13; Mk. 13:13; Lk. 9:62; Acts 13:43; 1 Cor. 15:58; 16:13; Eph. 6:18; Col. 1:23; 2 Thes. 3:13; 1 Tim. 6:14; Heb. 3:12,13; 6:6; 10: 23,38; 2 Pet. 3:17; Rev. 2:10,25

I fear that our friends of Reformed persuasion have played loosely with the concept of "fear of the Lord".

Hear me clearly on the following, however. Our greatest success in upright living will come from the love response and a thankful heart. Dutiful undertaking will only lead us to the poor showing of the elder brother in the parable of the Prodigal (Luke 15: 25-30)
 
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JM

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Just to be clear...the windshield reference was taken from the book. But how about this one...you should not stare at the finger pointing to God because you'll miss the point, look to where the finger is pointing, directly to God (does that work?).
 
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Hello Tomyris,

I think we have a hard time identifying ourselves as "Calvinists" because of a fear of people's reactions. Unfortunately, the "Christian" label, is far too broad in modern times, where even Mormons and JW's are calling themselves "Christians" and so on, which only leads to confusion. Just saying one is a Christian, doesn't really say much anymore. I could be a Catholic, EO, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Baptist, Methodist, Episcopalian, Anglican, Pentecostal, and so on and so forth. Then there are the SDA, Church of Christ, etc etc. I think it's helpful to be more specific. If you tell me you're ____________ then with my understanding of what is within orthodox Christianity, I can easily decide for myself whether you're a Christian, but then again, if you life doesn't reflect it, well that would be between you and God. Personally, I like the "Calvinist" label, and I am not ashamed to identify myself with other Calvinists. Loosing the term can only lead to the evangelical disaster of compromising and or perhaps forsaking the distinctions of Calvinism.
 
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Tomyris

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Hi!

I tend to say I'm EPC, which gives an opportunity for explanation than if I pigeonhole as Reformed ("what's THAT?") or Calvinist, which conjures up pictures of frowning Puritans and pointing fingers for some reason, such as the secular propaganda.

Hmmmmm.

-Tomyris
 
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JustAsIam77

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I think it's important to adhere to the true meaning of the Gospel, in that regard Calvin was correct.
 
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Tomyris

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I think it's important to adhere to the true meaning of the Gospel, in that regard Calvin was correct.

Hi!

Sorry, but I am unclear as to what
in that regard Calvin was correct.
means. Do you mean "as far as he was correct", "because he was correct" or, more limitedly, "in the sense that Calvin meant the true meaning of the Gospel, which I also affirm - and expect you do as well - was correct"?

Thanks for posting!!

-Tomyris
 
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Osage Bluestem

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I think in this day where Christianity is torn up so badly that it is necessary to define what you mean by "I'm a Christian".

So, the terms Reformed, or Calvinist, or Presbyterian are all useful in defining what you believe Christianity really is. Or one could at least say I'm a Christian who holds to the Westminster Confession, Three Forms of Unity, etc...but we need a definition or you could be anything.

Unfortunately thousands of groups; some good, some ok, and some terrible call themselves "christian"
 
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JustAsIam77

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Calvin was correct in his interpretation of scripture IMO.
 
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Tomyris

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Calvin was correct in his interpretation of scripture IMO.

Ah. Well, I can't complain about such statements on a Calvinist forum, now can I? Not that I necessarily would....

-Tomyris
 
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Tomyris

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Interesting.

Do you think a confessional definition is necessary?

-Tomyris
 
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Osage Bluestem

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Interesting.

Do you think a confessional definition is necessary?

-Tomyris

I just think it is indeed necessary to qualify what you believe at this time where there is virtually no agreement at all on what the truth is.
 
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JustAsIam77

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Ah. Well, I can't complain about such statements on a Calvinist forum, now can I? Not that I necessarily would....

-Tomyris

What are your objections to the Doctrines of Grace?
 
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Tomyris

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I just think it is indeed necessary to qualify what you believe at this time where there is virtually no agreement at all on what the truth is.

Yes. We can't even seem to agree on how to arrive at a basis for determining what is true. Even presuppositionalism has its deficiencies, I suspect.


P.S. I LOVE your Calvin quote in your siggy.
 
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Tomyris

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What are your objections to the Doctrines of Grace?

I'm sorry. I was being light hearted.

I am all in favor of grace. I will take mercy over justice every time.

Mercy?
 
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Osage Bluestem

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Yes. We can't even seem to agree on how to arrive at a basis for determining what is true. Even presuppositionalism has its deficiencies, I suspect.

Due to that we need to qualify what it is we believe or we can give peope false impressions that can cause them to make mistakes.


P.S. I LOVE your Calvin quote in your siggy.

Thanks
 
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