Does "I am" have any other meanings?

[Runningman]

In John 8:58 where Yeshua said "I am" (egó eimi in Greek) then 10 verses later Yeshua said "I am" again in John 9:9, but the translators made the exact same phrase, egó eimi, mean "I am he" or "I am the man." That means John 8:58 could just as easily been made, "I am the man."

Also, John 8:58 is the only such place where egó eimi was incorrectly translated as just "I am" in the New Testament.

All of that being said, the correct way to understand John 8:58 is that Yeshua is the man [prophesied about] before Abraham. In other words, Yeshua isn't God.

 

[HTacianas]

In John 8:58 where Yeshua said "I am" (egó eimi in Greek) then 10 verses later Yeshua said "I am" again in John 9:9, but the translators made the exact same phrase, egó eimi, mean "I am he" or "I am the man." That means John 8:58 could just as easily been made, "I am the man."

Also, John 8:58 is the only such place where egó eimi was incorrectly translated as just "I am" in the New Testament.

All of that being said, the correct way to understand John 8:58 is that Yeshua is the man [prophesied about] before Abraham. In other words, Yeshua isn't God.

All that aside, Jesus is the Word of God. John begins in the beginning was the Word...and the Word was God. The Word of God is the creative and sustaining power of God. See Colossians:

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

God exists in the form of the Father and His two powers. One is the creative and sustaining power, while the other is His regent power. Through His creative and sustaining power all things were created and all things consist. That creative Word is the mind of God. His other power is His regent power through which He reigns over His creation. Philo of Alexandria had it that God exists as a Divine Triad. He also had it that the divine creative power of God was the first-born Son of God. When we say that Jesus is the Son of God it conveys that meaning.

 

[Runningman]

All that aside, Jesus is the Word of God. John begins in the beginning was the Word...and the Word was God. The Word of God is the creative and sustaining power of God. See Colossians:

It means God's word was manifested and the son was begotten. Not that the son is the word, if that were so then he wouldn't be the begotten son.

John 1:14
14And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

An image isn't God. The firstborn over all creation is in regards to the creation of the church.

Colossians 1:18
18And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

The context is referring to the creation of the church.

God exists in the form of the Father and His two powers. One is the creative and sustaining power, while the other is His regent power. Through His creative and sustaining power all things were created and all things consist. That creative Word is the mind of God. His other power is His regent power through which He reigns over His creation. Philo of Alexandria had it that God exists as a Divine Triad. He also had it that the divine creative power of God was the first-born Son of God. When we say that Jesus is the Son of God it conveys that meaning.

The apostles didn't believe that after having been taught by Yeshua. Their prayer identified God as the only sovereign Lord who created everything while Yeshua was identified as God's servant.

Acts 4:23-30
23And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25who by the mouth of Your servant David have said:

27“For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. 29Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”

 

[HTacianas]

It means God's word was manifested and the son was begotten. Not that the son is the word, if that were so then he wouldn't be the begotten son.

John 1:14
14And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.


An image isn't God. The firstborn over all creation is in regards to the creation of the church.

Colossians 1:18
18And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

The context is referring to the creation of the church.

The apostles didn't believe that after having been taught by Yeshua. Their prayer identified God as the only sovereign Lord who created everything while Yeshua was identified as God's servant.

Acts 4:23-30
23And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25who by the mouth of Your servant David have said:

27“For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. 29Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”

Okay. What you're telling me sounds interesting enough but it contradicts two thousand years of Christian teaching and thought. Maybe you can read some of Philo of Alexandria and what he means by "firstborn" and "son of God". But we can't just up and decide one day that everyone else is wrong.

 

[Runningman]

Okay. What you're telling me sounds interesting enough but it contradicts two thousand years of Christian teaching and thought. Maybe you can read some of Philo of Alexandria and what he means by "firstborn" and "son of God". But we can't just up and decide one day that everyone else is wrong.

Well, I would maintain that Yeshua is a Unitarian, along with the apostles, and dozens of the early church fathers because they said so. They all said God is One, God said God is One so God must be one, not three.

Trinitarianism wasn't even mainstream until it was state-sanctioned by Constantine at the council of Nicea in the 4th century. After that, they literally began blocking access to the scriptures and killing everyone who challenged their beliefs. Over the centuries, they changed bits here and there. Nowadays, we have public access to Bible and the oldest manuscripts. Much of what the Trinitarians created has been successfully debunked or proven false.

 

[HTacianas]

Well, I would maintain that Yeshua is a Unitarian, along with the apostles, and dozens of the early church fathers because they said so. They all said God is One, God said God is One so God must be one, not three.

Trinitarianism wasn't even mainstream until it was state-sanctioned by Constantine at the council of Nicea in the 4th century. After that, they literally began blocking access to the scriptures and killing everyone who challenged their beliefs. Over the centuries, they changed bits here and there. Nowadays, we have public access to Bible and the oldest manuscripts. Much of what the Trinitarians created has been successfully debunked or proven false.

Actually your view of history is entirely mistaken. Trinitarianism was not "state-sanctioned by Constantine". Constantine had very little to do with the Council of Nicea other than convening it and ordering the bishops to end the Arian heresy. And no one began blocking access to the scriptures. In every Orthodox Church around the world the scriptures are read out loud every Sunday. Even people who cannot read can hear the scriptures. That has gone on since the beginning and is the reason the writer of the Revelation said "blessed is he who reads and those who hear".

These other things you've had to say aren't true, it's merely some old trope some people have come up with over the centuries in their multiple attempts to claim that the Church is wrong and they are right. Aside from simply being wrong, one of the major problems with it is that there are now thousands of them saying thousands of different things yet all claiming themselves to be right and everyone else wrong. It's best to ignore them.

 

[Runningman]

Actually your view of history is entirely mistaken. Trinitarianism was not "state-sanctioned by Constantine". Constantine had very little to do with the Council of Nicea other than convening it and ordering the bishops to end the Arian heresy. And no one began blocking access to the scriptures. In every Orthodox Church around the world the scriptures are read out loud every Sunday. Even people who cannot read can hear the scriptures. That has gone on since the beginning and is the reason the writer of the Revelation said "blessed is he who reads and those who hear".

These other things you've had to say aren't true, it's merely some old trope some people have come up with over the centuries in their multiple attempts to claim that the Church is wrong and they are right. Aside from simply being wrong, one of the major problems with it is that there are now thousands of them saying thousands of different things yet all claiming themselves to be right and everyone else wrong. It's best to ignore them.

That was a pretty bold reply since we have history books confirming everything I had just told you in my previous reply is true. Do we really need to dredge up all of the references to people being killed by the Trinitarian church, martyred, imprisoned, exiled, for challenging them, dissenting with them, teaching "heresy," or being caught with biblical manuscripts?

Do you know what the Inquisition is?

 

[HTacianas]

That was a pretty bold reply since we have history books confirming everything I had just told you in my previous reply is true. Do we really need to dredge up all of the references to people being killed by the Trinitarian church, martyred, imprisoned, exiled, for challenging them, dissenting with them, teaching "heresy," or being caught with biblical manuscripts?

Do you know what the Inquisition is?

I know precisely what the Inquisition was. It was an attempt to root out heresies. It had nothing to do with Trinitarianism and it only affected the West. There was still the entire East of Christianity that didn't go through it and remain until today Trinitarians.

 

[Runningman]

I know precisely what the Inquisition was. It was an attempt to root out heresies. It had nothing to do with Trinitarianism and it only affected the West. There was still the entire East of Christianity that didn't go through it and remain until today Trinitarians.

Hundreds of years of Trinitarian missionaries spread Christianity to the east, to the world even. Most people aren't going to dig through the original language and fact check what the Bible was translated to say. When or if they do, they'll see that the Trinity isn't even actually in the Bible.

 

[HTacianas]

Hundreds of years of Trinitarian missionaries spread Christianity to the east, to the world even. Most people aren't going to dig through the original language and fact check what the Bible was translated to say. When or if they do, they'll see that the Trinity isn't even actually in the Bible.

The apostles spread Christianity to the East. As far away as India where St. Thomas established the Church. All of these things you are saying are just a re-hash of anti-Catholic protestantism.

 

[Neogaia777]

In John 8:58 where Yeshua said "I am" (egó eimi in Greek) then 10 verses later Yeshua said "I am" again in John 9:9, but the translators made the exact same phrase, egó eimi, mean "I am he" or "I am the man." That means John 8:58 could just as easily been made, "I am the man."

Also, John 8:58 is the only such place where egó eimi was incorrectly translated as just "I am" in the New Testament.

All of that being said, the correct way to understand John 8:58 is that Yeshua is the man [prophesied about] before Abraham. In other words, Yeshua isn't God.

Jesus claimed equality with God in and of the OT, while also claiming there was a Father God who was greater than him, and that was greater than any of the rest of us all, etc.

I believe this idea can lead you a lot, lot closer to the real, true Trinity, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

Hundreds of years of Trinitarian missionaries spread Christianity to the east, to the world even. Most people aren't going to dig through the original language and fact check what the Bible was translated to say. When or if they do, they'll see that the Trinity isn't even actually in the Bible.

The Trinity is everywhere in the Bible.

Jesus himself told us to go baptizing people in three different names, etc.

And in the beginning the word for God is Elohim, instead of El, which is plural, etc.

And that is only just the beginning of what is in the Bible about it, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

So many heretics...

 

[Neogaia777]

Jesus claimed equality with God in and of the OT, while also claiming there was a Father God who was greater than him, and that was greater than any of the rest of us all, etc.

I believe this idea can lead you a lot, lot closer to the real, true Trinity, etc.

God Bless.

And to those of you who think there was no God the Holy Spirit here until after Jesus, God the Holy Spirit was the One who impregnated Mary with Jesus, so?

So that One was already here, and had already been here from long, long before that, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Runningman]

The Trinity is everywhere in the Bible.

Jesus himself told us to go baptizing people in three different names, etc.

And in the beginning the word for God is Elohim, instead of El, which is plural, etc.

And that is only just the beginning of what is in the Bible about it, etc.

God Bless.

Where is the Trinity described and explained? It isn't. Putting verses together that people want to believe mean there is a Trinity isn't the same thing as the Bible explaining it. There's a complete absence of Biblical information describing God in the same way the Trinity doctrine does.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

In John 8:58 where Yeshua said "I am" (egó eimi in Greek) then 10 verses later Yeshua said "I am" again in John 9:9, but the translators made the exact same phrase, egó eimi, mean "I am he" or "I am the man." That means John 8:58 could just as easily been made, "I am the man."

Also, John 8:58 is the only such place where egó eimi was incorrectly translated as just "I am" in the New Testament.

All of that being said, the correct way to understand John 8:58 is that Yeshua is the man [prophesied about] before Abraham. In other words, Yeshua isn't God.

Start from the beginning of the conversation, here it is:

John 8
48 Then the Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”
49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”
52 Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53 Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”
54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Clearly Jesus Christ of Nazareth is God in the flesh, the "I AM".

Blessings

 

[Runningman]

Start from the beginning of the conversation, here it is:

John 8
48 Then the Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”
49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”
52 Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53 Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”
54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Clearly Jesus Christ of Nazareth is God in the flesh, the "I AM".

Blessings

A few problems. Yeshua didn't say he's God in the flesh and there's still the problem of what he said normally being translated as "I am he" or "I am the man" throughout the rest of the New Testament. There's also the problem of it not meaning the same thing as it did where God said it in Exodus 3:14.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

A few problems. Yeshua didn't say he's God in the flesh and there's still the problem of what he said normally being translated as "I am he" or "I am the man" throughout the rest of the New Testament. There's also the problem of it not meaning the same thing as it did where God said it in Exodus 3:14.

Manufactured problems only.

 

[Runningman]

Manufactured problems only.

I'm a firm believer that words have meaning and that God doesn't mince words, misspeak, or contradict Himself. I would like to think that we all at least agree on that much.

So if God went through the entire Bible, like Yeshua did, not even saying he's God one time then how would one know for sure who God is? Guessing? I don't like to guess. Either someone needs to say they're God and that can be investigated or they can not say anything and I won't even consider it as a possibility. I believe Yeshua is the Son of God, the Messiah, like he explicitly said, and how everyone else in the Bible agreed with.

 

[Carl Emerson]

A few problems. Yeshua didn't say he's God in the flesh and there's still the problem of what he said normally being translated as "I am he" or "I am the man" throughout the rest of the New Testament. There's also the problem of it not meaning the same thing as it did where God said it in Exodus 3:14.

In the Old Testament, Jehovah’s self-proclaimed title of “I AM” is given special prominence in Ex 3:13-15. While we are told “I Am” was to be God’s name forever, there is no record in the Bible of it ever being used again (in Hebrew) unless we admit the grammatical connection between “I am” and the “Tetragrammaton” (which see), YHWH, commonly translated, “Jehovah”, “Yahweh”, “LORD”, or even “Eternal” in Moffatt’s version. However, the unpredicated phrase, “ego eimi” (= I am), occurs in the LXX in a number places (Deut 32:39, Isa 41:4, 43:10, 13, 25, 45:19, 46:4, 48:12, 51:12, 52:6) and always refers the One and Only Great Jehovah God Almighty.

“I am” in the Greek (NT) is, ἐγώ εἰμι “ego eimi”. The verb, “eimi” occurs 2462 times in the New Testament in various forms, but in only about 67 of these cases is the first-person nominative pronoun, “ego” used with it. Generally, the complete form, “ego eimi” only occurs when some emphasis is required.

This present continuous verb, “to be”, is the most common in almost all languages and has several syntactical functions in Greek (eg, see John 1:1 ):

• Existence, “I am.”, ie, unpredicated (see below).
• Identification, eg, Luke 1:19, “I am Gabriel”; John 9:9, “I am [that one]”; John 10:11, “I am the good shepherd”.
• Relationship, eg, Acts 18:10, “I am with you”.
• Predication, eg, Acts 22:3, “I am Jewish”.

The New Testament shows an interesting and (somewhat) unexpected pattern in the use of the Greek phrase, “ego eimi”, “I am”.

The exact phrase “ego eimi” occurs 48 times in the New Testament. It also occurs 11 times as “eimi ego” which has a very similar but still different construction and all are relational or predicative. It occurs in a few other forms such as “ego gar eimi”, “ego men eimi”, “ego ouk eimi” (I am not), etc, a total of 67 times (one or two are disputed).
Of the 48 cases of the exact phrase “ego eimi”, “I am”, just 15 are unpredicated and have (with one exception) the syntactical form existence as opposed to identification, relationship or predication. All are listed below (my translation) unless preceded by “not”, eg, Matt 26:22, 25, plus one exception to be noted.

• Matt 14:27, Mark 6:50 – “Be encouraged. I am.” [To the frightened disciples in the boat.]
• Mark 13:6, Luke 21:8 – “Many will come in my name saying, ‘I am’”.
• Mark 14:62, Luke 22:70 – “Jesus replied, ‘I am’”. [He was then accused of blasphemy by the Jews and condemned.]
• John 4:26 – “Then Jesus said, ‘I am.’” [To the Samaritan woman at the well. There is a reasonable case for this being identification, but that is a matter of taste.]
• John 6:20 – “But then [Jesus] said to them, ‘I am. Fear not.’” [To the frightened disciples in the boat.]
• John 8:24 – “If you do not trust/believe that I am, you will die in your sins.”
• John 8:28 – “When you will lift up the Son of Man, then you will trust/know that I am.”
• John 8:58 – “Truly, truly, I say to you; before Abraham existed, I am.” [The Jews then tried to stone Him for blasphemy.] Note that this and the previous two mean that Jesus, in the space of this chapter of John 8 uses the unpredicated “I am” idea in the present (v24), future (v28) and past sense (v58). V24 & 28 appears to be tied to believers’ salvation as well.
• John 9:9 – “Some were saying that, ‘this is [that one]’, and others were saying ‘no, it is like him.’ But he was saying, ‘I am [that one].’” (This instance is clearly identification rather than existence.)
• John 13:19 – “From now [on] I tell you before the occurrence, that you may believe when it occurs that, I am.”
• John 18: 5, 6, 8 – “He said to them, ‘I am.’ …Therefore, when He told them, ‘I am’, they fell backward to the ground.” [This occurred when the Jews tried to arrest Jesus in the garden. It could be reasonably argued that this is a case of identification. However, the fact that the arresting mob fell backward suggests that much more is intended here.]

Significantly, according to Mark 13:6 and Luke 21:8, one of the distinguishing characteristics of false christs is their claim to be “I AM”. Unfortunately, there has been a historical parade of charlatans making such false claims.

Thus, with the obvious and rather trivial exception of John 9:9 (and self-exclusory Mark 13:6 and Luke 21:8), all of the “I am” existence statements in the New Testament, including the 7 in John, were spoken exclusively by Jesus, and all were either the basis for absolute trust/belief and reassurance in Jesus, or were a clear declaration of His claim to be the “I AM.”