does god save all??

JM said:

If God loves everybody, He'll save everybody...what kind of love would not save?

Click to expand...

Amen to that. God wishes that none will perish. If God can't grant His own desires, then what does that say about the power of God?

JM said:

If God loves everybody, He'll save everybody...what kind of love would not save?

Click to expand...

I get what you're saying, but I don't necessarily agree.

It is possible for God to love with different kinds of love. For example, as a Christian I love all people, but yet I love my wife with a special kind of love, in fact, I am commanded to love her in a special way that differs from the way I love all the other women in the world.

Eph 5:25 Husbands love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself for her

I think it is possible for God to have a love for everyone, but a special, unique love for his wife. A saving love.\

This verse tells me that Christ has a special love for his wife, similar to how a husband has a special love for his wife.

Fred V B said:

Everyone has opportunity to respond to knowledge from God, which there always is on some level or another. Even animals have a knowledge of the Creator, indicated from scripture.

Click to expand...

98cwitr said:

Doesn't really answer the question though.

Click to expand...

I thought that this was answering it. All, including Pharaoh, have opportunity to respond to Yahweh God, who shows his goodness and grace, but even then, many of humanity, with the fallen nature that they have, turn from that, and can have their heart hardened.

Fred V B said:

I thought that this was answering it. All, including Pharaoh, have opportunity to respond to Yahweh God, who shows his goodness and grace, but even then, many of humanity, with the fallen nature that they have, turn from that, and can have their heart hardened.

Click to expand...

Don't we all have a fallen nature?

If so, how do some end up turning to God and some continue to rebel?

Are some people just better than others?

Skala said:

I get what you're saying, but I don't necessarily agree.

It is possible for God to love with different kinds of love. For example, as a Christian I love all people, but yet I love my wife with a special kind of love, in fact, I am commanded to love her in a special way that differs from the way I love all the other women in the world.

Eph 5:25 Husbands love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself for her

I think it is possible for God to have a love for everyone, but a special, unique love for his wife. A saving love.\

This verse tells me that Christ has a special love for his wife, similar to how a husband has a special love for his wife.

Click to expand...

Skala, that kind of love is neighbourly or acting lawfully to another which is right and good. Christ instructs us to do act lawfully or "love thy neighbour." This isn't "love" in a salvific sense or any sense for that matter. Calvin touches on this issue in "Treatise on the Eternal Predestination of God."

Gill points out this point below.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7431740/

Dr. Gill comments, when beasts were slain for some extraordinary entertainment, or for the solemn festivals and sacrifices the Jews, when they lived more deliciously than at other times; and then the sense is, that these rich men fared sumptuously every day; every day was a festival with them; they indulged themselves in intemperance; they ate and drank, not merely what was necessary, and satisfying, and cheering to nature, but to excess, and gorged, and filled themselves in an extravagant manner: the Syriac version, instead of “hearts”, reads “bodies” and one copy reads, “your flesh”: and the last phrase may be rendered, as it is in the same version, “as unto”, or “for the day of slaughter”; and so the Arabic version, “ye have nourished your hearts, as fattened for the day of slaughter”: like beasts that are fattened in order to be killed, so were they preparing and fitting up by their sins for destruction.

“But thou, O LORD, knowest me: thou hast seen me, and tried mine heart toward thee: pull them out like sheep for the slaughter, and prepare them for the day of slaughter.“ Jeremiah 12:3

Skala said:

Don't we all have a fallen nature?

If so, how do some end up turning to God and some continue to rebel?

Are some people just better than others?

Click to expand...

All mankind have two natures at conflict within ourselves. The original nature of God, and the false nature of Satan, inherited from the fall.

Mankind was never intended to have a 'false nature'. Some people will turn to God, simply because they see beauty around them. Others will refuse to see God, because they lost a loved one or because they see no beauty in their lives. There are many reasons.

But God is a parent, and, if we believe in Him or not, God loves all His children. If we are taught to love our enemies, how much more does God love those who are against Him?

Does God love some, more than others? Ask that question to parents.

Edgar44 said:

All mankind have two natures at conflict within ourselves. The original nature of God, and the false nature of Satan, inherited from the fall.

Mankind was never intended to have a 'false nature'. Some people will turn to God, simply because they see beauty around them. Others will refuse to see God, because they lost a loved one or because they see no beauty in their lives. There are many reasons.

But God is a parent, and, if we believe in Him or not, God loves all His children. If we are taught to love our enemies, how much more does God love those who are against Him?

Does God love some, more than others? Ask that question to parents.

Click to expand...

Not all men are God's children. Jesus told some that they are "children of the devil"

The apostle Paul said that unless you have the Spirit of Christ, you do not belong to Christ.

He also said that when we are saved, we are "adopted" as God's children.
If everyone is already His children, then what good is being adopted?

So, not all people are God's children.

All people are, however, his creation. And "The Lord has created all things for himself, even the wicked..." Prov 16:4

Skala said:

Not all men are God's children. Jesus told some that they are "children of the devil"

The apostle Paul said that unless you have the Spirit of Christ, you do not belong to Christ.

He also said that when we are saved, we are "adopted" as God's children.
If everyone is already His children, then what good is being adopted?

So, not all people are God's children.

All people are, however, his creation. And "The Lord has created all things for himself, even the wicked..." Prov 16:4

Click to expand...

Good points.

Firstly, all of mankind are descended from the same original parents 'Adam/Eve'.

Remember, Jesus also calls Peter 'Satan'. Yet later bestows Peter with a great honor.

All mankind are spiritually 'children of the devil', we ALL are sinners. every human ever born are sinners. but we have choice, we can choose to follow God's directions, or we can choose not to follow. If we choose not to follow, then we can be said to be the children of Satan.

Jesus is 'NOT' saying, they are literally a separate race born from a different lineage. He's saying their following Satan's nature, not God's.

35.John 8:39
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Actually, they were born of Abraham, but Jesus is not speaking about their physical lineage, He is speaking about their spiritual natures inherited from Satan. But all mankind have that same nature.

Jesus was saying to them, 'if you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. What were the works of Abraham? They were the works of doing good, doing what God wanted. Jesus was telling them, that the works they were doing was not God's will.

This was the reason Jesus called them children of the devil. Another time Jesus likens the people to "a brood of vipers", vipers are the offspring of a snake, But again, Jesus does not mean this in the physical sense, He is speaking about their actions, which are the actions of Satan's nature, not God's nature.

All mankind are from the same family, some choosing to heed God, others choosing not to. nothing to do with lineage, more to do with how close or how far we are from God.

All mankind ARE the children of God, for God alone is the creator. There is only the one Creator. But due to the fall, all mankind inherited the spiritual nature of Satan, (fallen angel Lucifer). We all have this conflict within us, not just 'some' of us. How we handle that conflict, is our choice.

How many times do we read in the Bible, 'IF'. If you do well, you will be blessed, if you eat of the tree you will die. 'IF'. It is our choice. Follow and become children of God, don't follow, stay children of the Devil.

Do what's right and you will have Abraham as your Father, do what's wrong and you'll be called children of the Devil.

Eat of the tree and die, don't eat of it and LIVE.

Skala said:

Free will does exist. But the problem is, man is hostile to God by fallen nature, thus he always freely chooses to reject God. That is our default stance: the reject God.

Free will always results in hell
Free grace always results in heaven

If God had not chosen to save some (election), heaven would be empty because we'd all happily reject God all the way to hell.

I can be more specific if you'd like.

Click to expand...

Its hard to fathom Christ on the cross
For only the elect.
If God chooses who will be saved or elected
Why would he have made such a sacrifice?
He would just as well done nothing
Upon the death of the elect they would enter Heaven and non elect would enter Hell.

The idea of predestined salvation
Is void of grace(unmerited favor)
The elect would have earned their reward by Gods election.
Election is merited by God in concept.
Grace is undeserving a gift given
Freely accepted by faith.

But my brother this is as old as the hills on subject.
I certainly believe if you accept Christ salvation is yours as well with me also.
It is only interpretation that divides us
In the body we are one.

All, including Pharaoh, have opportunity to respond to Yahweh God, who shows his goodness and grace, but even then, many of humanity, with the fallen nature that they have, turn from that, and can have their heart hardened.

Click to expand...

Skala said:

Don't we all have a fallen nature?
If so, how do some end up turning to God and some continue to rebel?
Are some people just better than others?

Click to expand...

We certainly do all have fallen natures, I wasn't suggesting otherwise. There are good questions here, though, they may be better asked of those who continue rebellion against God. They may not say they do in those words. But they do if they with saying they have no belief in God are not even going to look and refuse to consider God. This is rebellion against their Maker. God does show himself to his creatures, even us, and with grace to those who respond well to him. Others become hardened and there is less that God would do with them. It is not so much some being better than others, though that hardening against God is wickedness. But there are wicked people that can be turned around, repent from life of sin from God's work with them, while some "ethical people" avoid that.

Edgar44 said:

All mankind have two natures at conflict within ourselves. The original nature of God, and the false nature of Satan, inherited from the fall.

Mankind was never intended to have a 'false nature'. Some people will turn to God, simply because they see beauty around them. Others will refuse to see God, because they lost a loved one or because they see no beauty in their lives. There are many reasons.

But God is a parent, and, if we believe in Him or not, God loves all His children. If we are taught to love our enemies, how much more does God love those who are against Him?

Does God love some, more than others? Ask that question to parents.

Click to expand...

If the Fall was not intended, then why did God put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden? Did He not know what would happen by doing so?

Edgar44 said:

All mankind have two natures at conflict within ourselves. The original nature of God, and the false nature of Satan, inherited from the fall.

Mankind was never intended to have a 'false nature'. Some people will turn to God, simply because they see beauty around them. Others will refuse to see God, because they lost a loved one or because they see no beauty in their lives. There are many reasons.

But God is a parent, and, if we believe in Him or not, God loves all His children. If we are taught to love our enemies, how much more does God love those who are against Him?

Does God love some, more than others? Ask that question to parents.

Click to expand...

98cwitr said:

If the Fall was not intended, then why did God put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden? Did He not know what would happen by doing so?

Click to expand...

Of course, Yahweh God did know about the Fall, knowing all things about everything all along, as this is what his being all-knowing means. Relationship with love from us who are his creatures is meaningless without our choosing, which he permits. The Fall was not from his intention, but being without limitations in anything that he is, with such love he purposely brought creation into being, even with all the universe over which he, being greater, is sovereign, knowing the Fall was to be included, from humanity which was an important part of his creation choosing such rebellion against God, and knowing the cost to himself to provide for our redemption. God is not willing that any should perish, and for all to come to the repentance with the faith in Christ for his salvation, from his perfect grace, but many of humanity harden themselves, which God knows, so that after some opportunity, when they are so hardened such that they will no longer respond rightly to God, he gives them no more opportunity, it would be useless and wasted on them. He knows this, but it is alone their fault. The remnant that are his through the redemption that is from him are worth it to him.

I have heard argument from others that what is said is not that we should repent of sin. I was able to find a number of passages dealing with our need to repent. And so I have been told then that repenting in those passages is meaning turning around, but in those places it does not say that it is from sin. If this is still questioned by any, what else is there to repent from? It is sin, that is, any rebellion against God, with our own way. This, sin, which all wickedness is, alone is the offense against Yahweh God, this is it that we should repent from. It is with contrition, not wanting sin to continue. There isn't repentance with there being no acknowledgement of sin. There is salvation in Christ with those things involved.

Skala said:

I get what you're saying, but I don't necessarily agree.

It is possible for God to love with different kinds of love. For example, as a Christian I love all people, but yet I love my wife with a special kind of love, in fact, I am commanded to love her in a special way that differs from the way I love all the other women in the world.

Eph 5:25 Husbands love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself for her

I think it is possible for God to have a love for everyone, but a special, unique love for his wife. A saving love.\

This verse tells me that Christ has a special love for his wife, similar to how a husband has a special love for his wife.

Click to expand...

Well that's picking favorites aint it God's love is clearly defined in Scripture, and Scripture also tells us that God does not show favoritism. If we are to commissioned to love others as we love ourselves, there is no room for any "special" kind of love.

Fred V B said:

Of course, Yahweh God did know about the Fall, knowing all things about everything all along, as this is what his being all-knowing means. Relationship with love from us who are his creatures is meaningless without our choosing, which he permits. The Fall was not from his intention, but being without limitations in anything that he is, with such love he purposely brought creation into being, even with all the universe over which he, being greater, is sovereign, knowing the Fall was to be included, from humanity which was an important part of his creation choosing such rebellion against God, and knowing the cost to himself to provide for our redemption. God is not willing that any should perish, and for all to come to the repentance with the faith in Christ for his salvation, from his perfect grace, but many of humanity harden themselves, which God knows, so that after some opportunity, when they are so hardened such that they will no longer respond rightly to God, he gives them no more opportunity, it would be useless and wasted on them. He knows this, but it is alone their fault. The remnant that are his through the redemption that is from him are worth it to him.

Click to expand...

You say it's meaningless...but that's from YOUR perspective, not God's.

If God is not willing that anyone should perish, then why create those He knows that will? By their very creation, and with the foreknowledge of their final destination, it must mean that He is in fact willing.



^^^Your theology will not allow you to answer that will it? I find no errancy in scripture, but the 2 Peter 3:9 verse I read very differently than you. Note the verse says "promise," but to whom has He promised? Is it not the elect?

Here it is in the Greek, find me the word that we translate into "everyone"

οὐ βραδύνει κύριος τῆς ἐπαγγελίας, ὥς τινες βραδύτητα ἡγοῦνται, ἀλλὰ μακροθυμεῖ εἰς ὑμᾶς, μὴ βουλόμενός τινας ἀπολέσθαι ἀλλὰ πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν χωρῆσαι.

Dear acdcfan. All who want to be saved, will be saved. Jesus told us in
Matthew 22: 35-40: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all your hearts, with all your souls, and with all your minds. The second is like it:
Love your neighbour as yourselves." Jesus also told us: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. If we follow these two Commandments, we are showing God that we Love God, and want to be God`s sons and daughters, want to live with our Heavenly Father for eternity.
We start by asking God for Love and Joy: ( Matthew 7: 7-10 Here we are told
to " ask and ye shall receive." Then we thank God and share all Love and Joy,
with our neighbour. ( all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends)
We keep asking God and thanking God, then we share all Love and Joy with all around us.
The Bible tells us to " Repent," and to be " Born Again," and we will find that by Loving God and loving our neighbour, we are slowly changing into the
men and women which God wants us to become." We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on Loving and Caring. God wants to save us all, and God wants us to be loving and caring,
Love covers a multitude of sins, and Love will change us into God`s Own.
Love will help us to overcome all sinning and wrong behaviour. Jesus will help and guide us: JESUS IS THE WAY.
Remember acdcfan, ask and ye shall be given. God is Love and God wants loving sons and daughters. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

98cwitr said:

You say it's meaningless...but that's from YOUR perspective, not God's.

If God is not willing that anyone should perish, then why create those He knows that will? By their very creation, and with the foreknowledge of their final destination, it must mean that He is in fact willing.

^^^Your theology will not allow you to answer that will it? I find no errancy in scripture, but the 2 Peter 3:9 verse I read very differently than you. Note the verse says "promise," but to whom has He promised? Is it not the elect?

Here it is in the Greek, find me the word that we translate into "everyone"

οὐ βραδύνει κύριος τῆς ἐπαγγελίας, ὥς τινες βραδύτητα ἡγοῦνται, ἀλλὰ μακροθυμεῖ εἰς ὑμᾶς, μὴ βουλόμενός τινας ἀπολέσθαι ἀλλὰ πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν χωρῆσαι.

Click to expand...

That love is meaningless without choosing is my perspective, and still I see the suggestion of it from the inspired scriptures, and nothing from them saying otherwise. That Yahweh knew of those rejecting him does not make their choices his fault, he in righteousness can make any thing or person for his purpose, and they are at fault themselves if with their choices they fail to be in relationship with Yahweh as they were meant to be. Even with his knowledge he is just, all are given fair chance.

So we may have different theologies then. The passage that shows it is "all" that he is willing not to have perish but to come to salvation with repentance, which will be with Christ, is with the word in the Greek pantas, which you had written πάντας and so I copied it, as I can't compose the Greek letters where I compose this. It does mean all, nothing in the text suggests otherwise, to limit it.

"That love is meaningless without choosing is my perspective"

So in turn you say "God is meaningless without choosing Him?" You see what the implication of stating what love is and what love isn't right...for God is Love...?

John 6:37-44 limits those drawn AND chosen, as wells as Romans 9 and John 15:12-14. All men are drawn, yet few are chosen. If it were up to us, it'd be works salvation wouldnt it? Proverbs 16 and 20 say that man's footsteps are led by God...do you say otherwise?

Love is meaningless without choosing. So God is meaningless without choosing, because God is love. This is merely rhetoric for argument. It holds no weight. Many things are said of love. It does not all hold for Yahweh God, and the love that God is. We choose, our love is chosen. Yahweh alone loves no matter what.

Our response, which is called for, is not a work, and salvation is from Yahweh alone, through Christ. Calvinists alone argue that any response from us is still a work accomplishing salvation. No one else anywhere will call just any response doing any work. We still have our responsibilities, we are told to choose, as well. And of course God provides for everything, it remains as said, that God is not willing that any perish but all come to repentance. That any don't is their own fault.

Fred V B said:

Love is meaningless without choosing. So God is meaningless without choosing, because God is love. This is merely rhetoric for argument. It holds no weight. Many things are said of love. It does not all hold for Yahweh God, and the love that God is. We choose, our love is chosen. Yahweh alone loves no matter what.

Our response, which is called for, is not a work, and salvation is from Yahweh alone, through Christ. Calvinists alone argue that any response from us is still a work accomplishing salvation. No one else anywhere will call just any response doing any work. We still have our responsibilities, we are told to choose, as well. And of course God provides for everything, it remains as said, that God is not willing that any perish but all come to repentance. That any don't is their own fault.

Click to expand...

Where are we told to choose? Are you saying that faith is self-manifested?