Does God Kill?

PS139

God has all the rights; killing is not bad if God does it -- in his infinite wisdom He does it with a pourpose.

Daedalus said:

PS139

God has all the rights; killing is not bad if God does it -- in his infinite wisdom He does it with a pourpose.

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That is the argument - God cannot do anything bad - anything He does is righteous, even if we do not understand it.
That statement, in itself, I believe to be true.
But some actions ascribed to God in the OT - I do not believe to be true.

For instance, can God hate? No! He is a God of love! He loves every one of His creations. Can God "righteously hate"? No! That is a contradiction in terms. Well then, what about these verses from Malachi 1:

Jacob Loved, Esau Hated
2 "I have loved you," says the LORD .
"But you ask, 'How have you loved us?'
"Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" the LORD says. "Yet I have loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals."
4 Edom may say, "Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins."
But this is what the LORD Almighty says: "They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD .


Does God hate Esau? No. God cannot hate. Otherwise he would not be God. Its like saying "can God sin" - no, otherwise he would not be God.

Whats the solution?

Hebraicisms such as these in the OT are not to be taken at face value - God does not hate Esau.

I am not saying that the entire OT is a huge myth and nothing happened - I am far from that opinion - I believe in a literal worldwide Flood, in a literal Adam & Eve - but the wording of Hebrew, the expressions used.....literally translated and taken literally can be dangerous, we do not think or speak like the Hebrews - and we need to be careful when reading the OT, and not taking every action ascribed to God as objective truth.

Mmmm.... yes, that's very interesting.
Can't God both love you because you are His creation, and hate you because you do not do what He wants?
Yes, now that I think better, I don't know if God can hate.
Sending His only begotten Son to save the world showes extreme love.
Perhaps I'm stuck to the OT view of God is because I'm afraid to just accept the near -death God people describe as all loving and so on.
And I liked the jews.
How could they be so far of the track then?

Daedalus said:

How could they be so far of the track then?

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I'm not saying that they were off track. Granted, their theology and understanding of God was developing, but I do not believe that the OT is false.
The Hebrew mindset is totally different than the Greek/Western mindset. This is reflected in language, and that language is Hebrew, and thats what the Scriptures were originally written in.

Think of this - you live 2000 years from now, you are an archaeologist in a society with a totally different worldview and way of speaking than modern day Western Civ. You are excavating some ruins and you come across 2 newspapers (lets pretend that the paper doesnt decompose.) You see these two headlines:

"37 massacred in terrorist attack, nation mourns"

and

"Knicks massacre Chicago, New York celebrates!!"

Is a massacre something to mourn over, or to celebrate? It cant be both!
Or maybe you are reading both statements literally, and you do not understand the way 21st century people expressed themselves. Maybe the civilization you live in is totally pacifist, and its unthinkable to find anything good associated with the term "massacre." You would not understand.
But in reality both things happened, and both statements are true......

Thats my point I'm trying to make. God doesn't hate, and the OT is still the Word of God.

ps139 said:

That is the argument - God cannot do anything bad - anything He does is righteous, even if we do not understand it.
That statement, in itself, I believe to be true.
But some actions ascribed to God in the OT - I do not believe to be true.

For instance, can God hate? No! He is a God of love! He loves every one of His creations. Can God "righteously hate"? No! That is a contradiction in terms. Well then, what about these verses from Malachi 1:

Jacob Loved, Esau Hated
2 "I have loved you," says the LORD .
"But you ask, 'How have you loved us?'
"Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" the LORD says. "Yet I have loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals."
4 Edom may say, "Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins."
But this is what the LORD Almighty says: "They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD .


Does God hate Esau? No. God cannot hate. Otherwise he would not be God. Its like saying "can God sin" - no, otherwise he would not be God.

Whats the solution?

Hebraicisms such as these in the OT are not to be taken at face value - God does not hate Esau.

I am not saying that the entire OT is a huge myth and nothing happened - I am far from that opinion - I believe in a literal worldwide Flood, in a literal Adam & Eve - but the wording of Hebrew, the expressions used.....literally translated and taken literally can be dangerous, we do not think or speak like the Hebrews - and we need to be careful when reading the OT, and not taking every action ascribed to God as objective truth.

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You seem to think that hate is the opposite of love. However, God hates plenty of things. In fact, the NT tells us that Jesus was above his brethren BECAUSE he hated iniquity and loved the good. Jesus did BOTH.

Hebrews 1:8-9
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

He also hates the workers of iniquity (like all of us at one point or another). This does not mean He does not offer His love and redemption. For God, hating does no mean doing evil towards someone.

Psalms 5:4-6
4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

He hates sin and the sinner -- but makes provision for the sinner to be saved.

Proverbs 6:16-19
16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. (Note: these last two are PEOPLE, not actions.)

Does God still love those whose rebellion has led them to Hell?

Yes porcupine, I should have clarified my statement -

God does hate sin.
But God does NOT hate His creations.

Yes, He still loves those who rebel against Him.
He would not create something, knowing He would hate it later. He loves His creations.

ps139 said:

Yes porcupine, I should have clarified my statement -

God does hate sin.
But God does NOT hate His creations.

Yes, He still loves those who rebel against Him.
He would not create something, knowing He would hate it later. He loves His creations.

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Good Day Ps139

How have you been, I will agree with you as to the problems I have in some Hebrew usage in refernce to Mal 1. nor have I looked into that word. so , the problem is mine and mine alone. I would be interseted in a Hebrew scholar's detrimination of the verse in Mal.

On the other hand you are still left in a position as to the verse in Romans in which Mal is refenced:

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Rom 9:13 kaqwv gegraptai ton iakwb hgaphsa ton de hsau emishsa

I will have to consult some works when I have some time. Any thought?

Peace to u,

BBAS

This has really been an excellent thread, ps139 and y'all. The fact is that when we read the OT, we should understand the culture, mode of thinking and language of the Hebrews. Culture (and language) are not born full-grown. They develop gradually. And, they develop differently, depending on the differing cosmologies of different cultures.

In Hebrew, one word can have many meanings, as has been pointed out. The meaning depends on the context.

Our conclusions about the meaning of various words and contexts in the OT should take into account our overall understanding of linguistic and cultural differences and should also be understood in the light of the fullness of Revelation in Jesus Christ. E.g., the prophecies of the Suffering Servant in Isaias vis-a-vis the prophecies of the Triumphant Messias are most understandable after Jesus has revealed Himself in the Incarnation and the establishment of the Kingdom of God. Should we presume that, if we were Jews living in His time, we would have recognized Him with certainty? I doubt that most of us would have.

Michelina said:

This has really been an excellent thread, ps139 and y'all. The fact is that when we read the OT, we should understand the culture, mode of thinking and language of the Hebrews. Culture (and language) are not born full-grown. They develop gradually. And, they develop differently, depending on the differing cosmologies of different cultures.

In Hebrew, one word can have many meanings, as has been pointed out. The meaning depends on the context.

Our conclusions about the meaning of various words and contexts in the OT should take into account our overall understanding of linguistic and cultural differences and should also be understood in the light of the fullness of Revelation in Jesus Christ. E.g., the prophecies of the Suffering Servant in Isaias vis-a-vis the prophecies of the Triumphant Messias are most understandable after Jesus has revealed Himself in the Incarnation and the establishment of the Kingdom of God. Should we presume that, if we were Jews living in His time, we would have recognized Him with certainty? I doubt that most of us would have.

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Good Day, Michelina

I say Amen to that, the consistant understanding of "word" useage in context in applicable across all lanuages.


Michelina, would you go so far as to sugest that the OT writing were not understood with in the times in which they were written, nor not uderstood by the people of which they were written to? I would agree there is "some" semantic changes that will happen with in a time period of any lanauge english included. It is a novel idea to conclude that because of this that a lanuge is undeveloped or "not fully born" for the fully born is dependant on the tracking of semantic changes over a period of time.

Semantic changes are to some exent tracable with in a given time period of any lanuage, and always taken in to account when trying to understand the idoms of the lanuage for that time period. The people with in that time period will allways follow that semantic change to enable their writing to communicte ideas to them whom read them according to the idoms understood in that time.

For His Glory Alone!

Bill

BBAS 64 said:

I say Amen to that, the consistent understanding of "word" usage in context is applicable across all languages.
Would you go so far as to suggest that the OT writing were not understood within the times in which they were written, nor not uderstood by the people of which they were written to? I would agree there are "some" semantic changes that will happen within a time period of any language, english included. It is a novel idea to conclude that because of this that a language is undeveloped or "not fully born" for the fully born is dependent on the tracking of semantic changes over a period of time. Semantic changes are to some extent traceable within a given time period of any language, and always taken into account when trying to understand the idioms of the language for that time period. The people with in that time period will always follow that semantic change to enable their writing to communicte ideas to those who read them according to the idioms understood in that time. For His Glory Alone! Bill

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Hi, Bill! Long time no see!

You're not getting my point, originally raised by ps139. The Hebrew language reflected the Hebrew mode of thinking and "perceiving" reality. Their Cosmology differs from the Hellenic /Hellenistic mindset, or way of thinking, not a mere lack of "development".

Hebrew reflects notions of causality that are different from the Hellenistic; spiritual realities are expressed more concretely than the abstractions of the Greeks. The linguistic differences manifest anthropological differences more than mere differences in vocabulary, grammar and word-forms. In other words, translating from the Hebrew is not the same as translating from modern German into modern English. Modern German and English cultures do not differ as radically from each other as Hebrew differs from the Western way of perceiving and understanding reality.

hotmetal said:

Proverbs 8:13 and Psalm 97:10 tell us to HATE evil. Is it not righteous that God hates evil?

God Bless, metal

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God does hate evil. He hates sin.
But those are not His creations as we, or Esau are.

He can hate sin and not hate any creation. Sort of like 'hate the sin love the sinner.' Its why Christ ate dinner with sinners. He loved them.

I beleive God does kill, but i don't beleive Him guilty of killing, if you get what i mean.
God is the righteous one, all righteousness comes of God, to do righteousness is to walk in His ways.
To kill at His command is righteous.

God creates life, this is by His hand, nobody dies but by Gods say so.
Nothing happens without God allowing it wether good or evil.
God lets the wicked do evil he also lets them be punished by their own wickedness and become trapped in their own web of sin.
God uses the wicked for the purpose of good, He uses and has used the wicked to punish the wicked by their own wickedness, He even uses the wicked to convict the righteous of their error.
Good doesn't exist of this world without evil, but God rewards each of his own heart wether it seeks to do evil or good.

As evil exists in this world so must an evil punishment, God permits this, to some it can sometimes seem that the righteous can be punished with evil, and that the wicked get rewarded by good, but the heart gets rewarded to whom it seeks after, whether the love of God or lusts of their own ways.
If a the righteous have the love of God they have the greatest reward, but if the wicked own all the riches of this world which they may lust after, they have their reward of their lusts, but have no real reward for they've missed the true treasure and are damned by their own heart missing the truth by desiring their selfish gain and not being convicted of their selfish hearts to see the true Gosepl of God.

God is righteous and always does good, He is the only one who is good, if He kills of His hand then it's for good, it may not seem it to us, but all He does and all He offers is for our good for us to inherit His love not His wrath.
But both exist and examples of both have been set forth for us.

It doesn't make God evil if we don't understand His wisdom, for God does no evil that He is in error as man, man does evil by rejecting God and going against Him, that's what evil is.

God is to be feared, but God is to be loved, God can not be hidden from and knows what's in all mens hearts.
God is a terrifying God and the wrath that He can distribute is to be feared above all, but the love He distributes is to be desired above all.

To say God is evil is mans error, but to say God doesn't punish the wicked is also the error of man.

God is just and repays all their due reward, whether He rewards good for good or evil for evil, do we reward ourselves for our righteousness, or does it come by Gods hand, do we reward oursleves evil for the evil we do, we do the evil by our own hands and heart, but can the wicked punish themselves for their own wickedness, as by their hands for then they would have to be convicted and see the error of their ways and feel remorse, their punishment comes from their wickedness but they don't willingly punish themselves.
It comes by Gods just hand and His righteousness, but our hearts inherit to whom they serve and long after.

We do not the righteousness of ourselves for we do Gods righteousness, but the evil we do we do of oursleves, God does no evil, but is just and good in all He does, He offers us His righteousness in all it's purity, but we choose the ways of evil making us evil, we choose them over Gods way.
We bring forth our punishment, we do the evil, but if we were rewarded with Gods pure righteouness and love for doing evil then what would that make evil, the evil would then be righteousness.
If God rewarded evil with His goodness, then what would that make God.

Evil has to be rewarded with evil, that makes God good not evil.
We do the evil, why blame God for the evil we do when all He does is righteous and greatness in His perfect wisdom.