Does God have a God? Explaining John 20:17 in Defense of the Trinity.

Jason0047 said:

I believe if Jesus (Who is God Almighty - Second person of the Godhead or Trinity) appeared in the temple or empty shell of an angelic body to cover His pure being of spirit as God (that cannot be looked upon by man), then it would have more likely have been one shell or one temple and not multiple temples or soul-less bodies (In my opinion).

Also, when Abraham encountered the Lord and the other two angels, they were able to eat actual physical food (Genesis 18). This means, that angels have the capacity to become solid to some extent within this world (if they so desire or if God wills it to be so).

Anyways, whether we agree or disagree, thank you for your words.
They were helpful for me.

May God bless you.
And please be well.


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Your very welcome, I'm glad it was of help, and I am only to happy to be of some help to someone, I hope that I was a "spark" for you, (I'm saying "I" but I really cannot take any credit, for it was really him and not me), but, either way, I'm glad it helped...

May God richly Bless You as well,

I am much more "well" than I used to be, thanks to him, but I thank you for the thoughtful concern, it's very kind of you, anyways, Peace be with you,

God Bless!

jeager016 said:

Are you saying all J.W.'s are Aryan?
I thought there were plenty of J.W.'s that were of all races, creeds,
origins, etc.
Perhaps you need google that?
I'm not, nor have ever been a baptized J.W.
I'm familiar with the teaching from reading on line articles.
A cousin in Florida is a J.W. as is his wife.
Nice folks they are.

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I said Arian with an 'i'.

Doesn't seem that hard to understand. If we look at the Gospels you see that there are two in the family of God (Elohim). Let us make man in "our" image. At the beginning of the gospels we see the introduction by the apostles in this such form, "Grace and Peace be with you from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord." see 1 Cor 1.3 We see this all throughout the new testament in greetings to the churches.

Do we see it in the old testament? Sure! Ps 110.1 "And the Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool."

So who was David's Lord? Obviously the one with the lower rank here. And he sat at the right hand of the one with the higher rank!

Heb 1.1-4 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

It was Jesus Christ who sat down at the right hand of God the Father.

Again, Mark 16.19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Where did Christ come from? Phil 2.7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Who was David's Lord? See Hebrews 4, 5, 6, 7 It is plain that it was the same personage in the kingdom of God that emptied Himself and took upon him the form of a servant.

All the patriarchs prayed to the same God the one who became Jesus. Hard to understand. Not Really. John Smith has a son called James Smith. They are both Smith and but only one is at the head, that would be John Smith. They are one because they walk in unity and are of the same family. All the work that the son does is by the authority of the Father, John Smith. God the Father upholds all things that He does by the power of His Word. Does this example look similar to Jesus? Lets look at the scripture.

John 1.1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
....and though the world was made through him...The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So it was the one who was the Word that became Jesus Christ, it was the one who was the Word that did the work of creating the heavens and earth (and though the world was made through him) it was the Word that sat at the right hand of the All Mighty God.

Who did Christ come to reveal? “Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him” Christ came to make known the Father.

Does Christ say that He would soon go back to Him (the Father)? and also pray to be restored the former glory that He (Christ) had?

Jn 17.5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Yes, it was the Father who raised Christ from the dead, when He (Christ) died to cover the penalty of our sins. Yes, it was the Father who gave His (Father) only begotten son. (How hard that had to have been) There is an example of this in Abraham and Isaac.

Yes, Jesus Christ does answer to someone of a higher authority. God the Father!

Imagican said:

Acts: 17:


When God said 'let US............', that offers no indication that God is 'plural'. It simply offers that there were more than 'one entity' involved in 'us'. Not more than one God.

And think about this: how silly is it to consider The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit to be 'persons'? How ridiculous. God is Spirit. He is not a 'person'. Can't you see how using the term 'person' in reference to the Father, Son or Holy Spirit is nothing other than graven by art and man's device. God is 'not' a person or 'persons'. So attempting to define Him as such is to attempt to 'create a God of one's own design'. God has 'never' revealed Himself to be a 'person' or 'persons'. If so, please show the scripture. God is 'God': the Creator, Our Heavenly Father. God is Spirit. God is Love. He is all these things but never once has He revealed Himself as a 'person' or 'persons'.


MEC

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The word "us" is plural and God translated from "Elohim" in hebrew can stand as plural or singular depending on context. Now as the verse reads, "let US make man in OUR image" certainly dispels your first statement. "US" and "OUR" are plural in meaning and content.

As far as person or personage, simply the writer was referring to the individuals or entities separately as you did above when you said more than one entity. All I can say is look up the definition. No one here said God the Father is a human being. Someone might have referred to the God family as persons or personages which would take on individual characteristics separately. A corporation can be a person of interest for that matter.

Now you maintain there is only one God and while stating that there is more than one entity. Now let me ask you? Who or what do you think these two entities are? Both would seem to have the physical characteristics such as eyes, nose, ears, face, back, legs, feet.. etc... Remember, let us make man in our image. In the same likeness or similitude. Do you suppose that God said to an angel he created, "let us make man in our image"? Would you say to your dog, let us make the robot in our image. Might be a funny looking robot!

Did you not read John "In the beginning was the Word (that is spokesperson, logos) and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Do the greetings from the apostles read, Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ?

Did not Thomas answer Him, "My Lord and my God."

Do not the scripture say, "the Son of God is come."

Did not Jesus say, "Before Abraham was, I am." Now who spoke to Moses?

Did not Jesus pray to the Father, "Father, give me back that which I had with you before the foundation of the world."

Did David not pray, "And the Lord said unto my Lord, sit here at my right hand while I make your enemies your footstool."

Do not the scriptures teach us that the plants are after the plant kind, the fowl are after the fowl kind, the fish are after the fish kind, cattle after the cattle kind? What do you think? Man reproduces his own kind too, correct?

What of God? What of the God kind? Is there more than one? Will there be many Gods some day?

If Jesus now sits as the son of God then he must be of the God kind now correct? He was the firstborn? Born into what? Into the kingdom of God, isn't that so?

Hebrews For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

John Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

It looks to me that there will be many God beings in the Kingdom of God.

Y

God is simply a family. He created the family. Elohim, plural in most cases.. Let us make man in our image.... God the Father and God the Son (Jesus Christ). Many more to come later. God is reproducing Himself or His kind. Just like we have children. Pretty simple really.

Jason0047 said:

So do you believe there are three separate Gods? Are you saying there is no one God who exists as three distinct persons? If so, well the three separate gods view is similar to Mormonism. The Lord our God (who is one) is simply triune.

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I revise my previous assessment, the difference between us isn't petty it couldn't be wider. God may be one but so to is a mob of sheep one; God being one is a Jewish denial of and defence against Jesus Christ.

Not being a Trinitarian I am not limited to three Gods, whom may be one or one God whom may be three. The problem we have is largely a semantical one. I cannot comprehend what the word God means to you or what your God concept is; apart from three being one and one being three.

There are good Biblical reasons to believe that Jesus ant the archangel Michael are the same entity; although when Jesus was the son of man for 30 odd years He was not an archangel during that time; but was before and after.

Daniel 10:13 (NKJV)
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia.

Daniel 10:21 (NKJV)
21 But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth. (No one upholds me against these, except Michael your prince.

Daniel 12:1 (NKJV)
1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

So we have Michael and Gabriel who could be seen as a duoity; duo and unity, two is one and one is two.

Jude 1:9 (NKJV)
9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

Revelation 12:7 (NKJV)
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,

Whether Jesus was always the son of God is not known; what is known is He became the son of God, yet never called Himself that, only called Himself the son of man. We who are saved will become sons of God also, and Kings and Priest; will we not be one with God, our number being infinite; one is infinity and infinity is one; infinity and unity gives infinityity; a infinitune God.

sparow said:

I revise my previous assessment, the difference between us isn't petty it couldn't be wider. God may be one but so to is a mob of sheep one; God being one is a Jewish denial of and defence against Jesus Christ.

Not being a Trinitarian I am not limited to three Gods, whom may be one or one God whom may be three. The problem we have is largely a semantical one. I cannot comprehend what the word God means to you or what your God concept is; apart from three being one and one being three.

There are good Biblical reasons to believe that Jesus ant the archangel Michael are the same entity; although when Jesus was the son of man for 30 odd years He was not an archangel during that time; but was before and after.

Daniel 10:13 (NKJV)
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia.

Daniel 10:21 (NKJV)
21 But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth. (No one upholds me against these, except Michael your prince.

Daniel 12:1 (NKJV)
1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

So we have Michael and Gabriel who could be seen as a duoity; duo and unity, two is one and one is two.

Jude 1:9 (NKJV)
9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

Revelation 12:7 (NKJV)
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,

Whether Jesus was always the son of God is not known; what is known is He became the son of God, yet never called Himself that, only called Himself the son of man. We who are saved will become sons of God also, and Kings and Priest; will we not be one with God, our number being infinite; one is infinity and infinity is one; infinity and unity gives infinityity; a infinitune God.

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Jesus wasn't a created being as your post implies. Michael, Gabriel, lucifer were all three created and separate beings. They are arch angels.

They aren't duoity which is oneity or oneity that somehow is threeity. Where anyone comes up with this stuff amazes me.

The god being who, became flesh, that would be the word, created all things, even the angels!

sparow said:

. . . Whether Jesus was always the son of God is not known; what is known is He became the son of God, yet never called Himself that, only called Himself the son of man. We who are saved will become sons of God also, and Kings and Priest; will we not be one with God, our number being infinite; one is infinity and infinity is one; infinity and unity gives infinityity; a infinitune God.

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John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
John 9:37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.

John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

John 11:4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

Imagican said:

And let me offer this: "I'm not going to 'imply' that Christ was 'created', I'm simply going to offer scripture that 'states' Christ was 'created' by God. It is not something that 'I' have 'made up'. I have simply read the scriptures and accept them 'as offered'. So, anyone that is interested, just ask and ye shall receive.
Blessings,
MEC

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I'm waiting. A scripture which "states" not implies Christ was created.

Imagican said:

If God being 'triune' is 'fact' as you so boldly offer with feigned authority, show us. Show where the Bible makes God's 'triune' nature FACT. Surely if it is 'fact' the Bible must offer the 'proof'. Or maybe you are simply confused as to the definition of the word: 'fact'?

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What you have offered here is completely contrary to the doctrine of 'trinity' itself. I can see that you haven't done your 'homework' which is what the 'churches' that 'teach trinity' wish. They 'hope' that you will simply 'accept' what you are offered.

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. . . Yet 'neither' exist in the Bible. If you refuse to acknowledge this, I challenge you to 'show us' where 'trinity' exists in the Bible. Show us where the Bible refers to 'three persons in one God'. Show us where the Son if equal to the Father. Show us where the Bible explains 'eternal generating'.

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Show us where the Bible teaches or even indicates God the Son.
Better yet, don't waste your time even 'trying'. For even those that 'created trinity' openly admit that there are not 'such' scriptures. That 'trinity' can

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only be recognized through 'divine revelation'. Yet you and most that profess 'trinity' insist that it 'is in scripture'. That being the case 'show it'. Offer some 'quotes' that 'teach trinity'. If you can, then those that 'created trinity' are 'wrong' in their explanation of that which THEY 'created'.

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Better yet, I will copy and paste what the New Advent offers concerning the Catholic's definition of 'trinity'.
Blessings,
MEC

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Show us where "the Bible" is stated in scripture?

Imagican said:

God did not become 'flesh'. God sent His Son to 'take on' the flesh. Where did you find 'that' in the Bible? Since you didn't, you obviously either 'make it up' or simply 'took on the made up beliefs' of some other man or men. Show us the scripture that states, "God became flesh". If you can't, then admit that it doesn't exist. Otherwise your comments are pretty moot aren't they?

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Huh? "And the Word became flesh and lived among us" (John 1:14)

See also "In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission." (Heb 5:7)

"By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God," (1 John 4:2)

I understand that point you're making. Orthodox thought can be understood as denying that there's an actual human being Jesus. Rather, the Logos took on human nature, so when people saw Jesus they really were seeing the Logos with a human body but not a human being in any normal sense. I'm pretty sure the NT authors would have disagreed. I hope this isn't the only possible understanding of orthodox Christology, though I know that many think it is.

Imagican said:

See, and in this it is my opinion you err. Just because someone doesn't believe in 'trinity' doesn't make them 'Arians'. I am NOT an Arian yet I agree with some of what Arius professed. But my beliefs did not 'stem' from Arius. My beliefs existed before I had ever heard his name mentioned.

And I'm not a JW but i have a feeling if you asked one, they would also deny being Arians. That is a 'label' created by the Catholic Church that really has little bearing today. Arius has been dead for close to two thousand years. And almost everything he ever wrote on the subjects in question was destroyed by the CC way back then. So now what we actually KNOW about Arius is more Legend than fact. We do know he was in attendance at the Council at Nicaea. We also know he was 'excommunicated' from the Catholic Church and then at the request of Constantine invited back to be reintroduced into the Church but died before he was able to complete his journey. But very very little remains of his writings so we are left with mostly Catholic propaganda concerning his teachings.

You can 'call me names' but in truth, I am 'no Arian'. Can't be because there isn't even enough of what he wrote to be a 'follower' of Arius.

Blessings,

MEC

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Arianism is the idea that Jesus Christ is not equal to the Father by nature, but He is the first creation of God. Therefore, JW's are Arians.

Imagican said:

Christ openly admits that every speck of his power was 'given Him' by His Father: God.

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Not so! Christ NEVER said that.

Imagican said:

If Jesus WAS: God in the flesh, all one needs to do to prove it is explain this:

"My God, my God, why hath thou forsaken me?"

Not some 'run around in circles' explanation. Just a simply explanation of how 'God in the flesh' was asking God why He had been abandoned. For you see, no explanation that can be offered makes 'any sense' from the perspective of Christ 'being God'. For how does God abandon Himself?

And furthermore, how does 'God in the flesh' DIE and still remain God?

Blessings,

MEC

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Do we need to discuss the kenosis and the role Jesus played during His incarnation?

-57 said:

Do we need to discuss the kenosis and the role Jesus played during His incarnation?

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No, WE need to explain how God can abandon Himself.

And WE need to explain why Jesus distinguishes Himself from God, thus freaking out Matthew and causing him to change "Good teacher" to "teacher" and "Why do you call me good?" to "Why do you ask me about what is good?" to remove the unacceptable Christological implication.

"Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus said to him: "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God (Mark 10:17-18)."
"Teacher, what good deed must I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him: "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good (Matthew 19:16-17)."

Jesus believes His goodness derives from God, not from Himself. Posters always duck THE offense taken by Matthew whenever it is pointed out.