Does God control everything?

Defens0rFidei said:

Ref asked me to elaborate. So I did. Did I break some rule? I don't want to debate anything. I was explaining my original question upon request.

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If the back and forth goes much further you will be in violation of rules 2 and 3 of the Semper Reformanda forum:

2) Reformed/Calvinist, as well as all members of the Congregational Forums can post fellowship threads here. Only Reformed/Calvinist members are allowed to debate threads to discuss various doctrines to do with their own denomination and other denominations as long as they are within our rules.

3) Non-Reformed/Calvinist members can only post fellowship posts here or posts to ask a question regarding Reformed/Calvinist doctrine. Once the question is answered, there shall be no debate over the answer in this forum by the Non-Reformed/Calvinistmembers. Any debate posts by Non-Reformed/Calvinist members will be deleted. In other words, only Reformed/Calvinist members can debate here.

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I would be more than happy to move this to General Theology if you'd like to debate this topic. This area is specifically for those Reformed Christians to discuss and debate their faith.

You were asked to clarify and you did, that's fine. But I will consider anything beyond that as engaging in debate and will act accordingly.

I appreciate the time you took to explain yourself.

Defens0rFidei said:

Hey Ref-

Does He decide everything that happens to us in our lives? For example, I was reading on crimelibrary.com about a pair of serial killers that liked to kidnap young girls and rape/torture them in their van. I was also reading about one that kept a sex slave for 7 years of torture. (I know...not the best stuff to read about, but it got me wondering about God's control over events).

Personally I can't see God determining these things to happen to people, so I was wondering how it lines up with your beliefs.

Thanks!

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Thanks for the elaboration. I would say that God controls everything, however, His control is not always manifested in the same manner. God both actively intercedes in the temporal happenings of His creation to govern His creation according to His eternal plan and God is actively passive in order that He may manifest His eternal plan.

In case you are wondering what I mean by "actively passive," I merely mean that God is passive in His action but active in His choice to be passive. It is important that we acknowledge that God, being omnipotent and omnipresent, is, by His very nature, "involved" in every single second of every single event. For God to "allow" something to happen, i.e., be passive, He must make a sovereign choice to be passive.

As cygnusx1 said, though we may not know God's reason for being passive in something as terrible as these brutalities, it does not mean it wasn't His will that it come to pass. I'm sure if this were in a debate forum I'd get a lot of flack about that but my reformed brotha's and sista's know where I'm coming from (hopefully).

God bless

God bless

>>>for My ways are higher than your ways, and My thoughts higher than your thoughts<<<<<

sometimes, we just have to sit back and say "I don't know why it happens...."

Defens0rFidei said:

Hey Ref-

Does He decide everything that happens to us in our lives? For example, I was reading on crimelibrary.com about a pair of serial killers that liked to kidnap young girls and rape/torture them in their van. I was also reading about one that kept a sex slave for 7 years of torture. (I know...not the best stuff to read about, but it got me wondering about God's control over events).

Personally I can't see God determining these things to happen to people, so I was wondering how it lines up with your beliefs.

Thanks!

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Although people mean sins for evil, God means them for good. Often we can't understand how God could use something as terrible as the sins you described for good, but we must remember that God is omnipotent, and that He also does as He pleases. Who are we to question the reasoning of God?

Defens0rFidei said:

Thank you Ref, I understand what you wrote, except for the part I quoted. Would you mind explaining this bit more in detail? Are you saying it was His will that these things occured?

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Yes, it was His will that these things occur. The difficulty that the evangelical church and the catholic churhes take with claiming this is that they feel it, in some way, implicates God in unrighteousness.

I'll see if I can explain this. In a different thread I was talking to Michelle (shelb5) and I had asked her why she believed in God. She replied by telling me that God had "allowed" her to experience certain things, one of which was the murder of a friend. Clearly Michelle was not saying that because God allowed it He was, in some way, at fault, right? Of course not. However, we all know God could have stopped it, had He chosen to. We also know that since He didn't stop it, it's clear that He didn't choose to stop it. Why, we ask ourselves, doesn't God, who can stop bad things from happening, actually stop these things from happening? The only viable explanation is that it is His will that they happen. He does not force them to happen. He does not introduce the desire for these heinous things into the minds of those that commit them. He does not omnipotently move their hand to do what they do. Keeping all this in mind, God's plan is still accomplished. We are finite so we are incapable of seeing the good that bad things can bring to pass down the road. Our thinking is so limited that we think of everything in terms of our temporal existence. The importance we place on things shows where our focus is at.

The two most prominant example that I can that illustrate God's providential control even over the wickedness of man are that of Jesus, first and foremost, and Pharaoh. In the case of Jesus, God did not move the hand of those who freely killed the Lord. Was it His will that it happen? Of course. The redemption of God's children is accomplished through such a terrible, though gracious, event. You see, God, who is always sovereign over His creation, raised up and governed the situation exactly as was necessary to accomplish the bruising of His Son while at the same time not violating the will of those involved so that they committed their sins most freely and willingly. Is the murder of Christ a bad thing? To be sure, the murder of any human being is a terrible thing. However, we also must say it was the most wonderful thing that ever happened because it is through that act of mercy and selflessness that we are saved.

The other example, Pharaoh, also illustrates God's sovereign providence. Pharaoh, the most powerful created man on the face of the earth, was raised up and placed in a position of power, all through the government of God, that he may persecute God's people and God's power and wrath may be manifested. Did God make Pharaoh persecute the Jews? Did God make Pharaoh be as evil as he was? Of course not. Does that mean that God merely saw an opportunity to be glorified in a previously unexpected event? Of course not. The outworking of events in time is nothing more than the glory of God, though we are unable to see it as a whole so our perspective often causes us to think something is outside of the sovereign government of God. Thanks be to God this is not the case. It is only when we know that God is providential in all matters that we can truly echo the words of Paul and James:

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

James 1:2-4
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

We should ask ourselves if we have the faith that thanks God for all things, even difficulty because we know that we are being conformed to the image of His Son through these experiences. Yes Defens0rFidei, even the bad ones.

God bless

Defens0rFidei said:

Thank Ref. Great post.

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Thank you for taking the time to honestly and thoughtfully ask a great question.

God bless,
Don

It's good to have you back, Don.

Reformationist said:

Yes, it was His will that these things occur. The difficulty that the evangelical church and the catholic churhes take with claiming this is that they feel it, in some way, implicates God in unrighteousness.

I'll see if I can explain this. In a different thread I was talking to Michelle (shelb5) and I had asked her why she believed in God. She replied by telling me that God had "allowed" her to experience certain things, one of which was the murder of a friend. Clearly Michelle was not saying that because God allowed it He was, in some way, at fault, right? Of course not. However, we all know God could have stopped it, had He chosen to. We also know that since He didn't stop it, it's clear that He didn't choose to stop it. Why, we ask ourselves, doesn't God, who can stop bad things from happening, actually stop these things from happening? The only viable explanation is that it is His will that they happen. He does not force them to happen. He does not introduce the desire for these heinous things into the minds of those that commit them. He does not omnipotently move their hand to do what they do. Keeping all this in mind, God's plan is still accomplished. We are finite so we are incapable of seeing the good that bad things can bring to pass down the road. Our thinking is so limited that we think of everything in terms of our temporal existence. The importance we place on things shows where our focus is at.

The two most prominant example that I can that illustrate God's providential control even over the wickedness of man are that of Jesus, first and foremost, and Pharaoh. In the case of Jesus, God did not move the hand of those who freely killed the Lord. Was it His will that it happen? Of course. The redemption of God's children is accomplished through such a terrible, though gracious, event. You see, God, who is always sovereign over His creation, raised up and governed the situation exactly as was necessary to accomplish the bruising of His Son while at the same time not violating the will of those involved so that they committed their sins most freely and willingly. Is the murder of Christ a bad thing? To be sure, the murder of any human being is a terrible thing. However, we also must say it was the most wonderful thing that ever happened because it is through that act of mercy and selflessness that we are saved.

The other example, Pharaoh, also illustrates God's sovereign providence. Pharaoh, the most powerful created man on the face of the earth, was raised up and placed in a position of power, all through the government of God, that he may persecute God's people and God's power and wrath may be manifested. Did God make Pharaoh persecute the Jews? Did God make Pharaoh be as evil as he was? Of course not. Does that mean that God merely saw an opportunity to be glorified in a previously unexpected event? Of course not. The outworking of events in time is nothing more than the glory of God, though we are unable to see it as a whole so our perspective often causes us to think something is outside of the sovereign government of God. Thanks be to God this is not the case. It is only when we know that God is providential in all matters that we can truly echo the words of Paul and James:

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

James 1:2-4
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

We should ask ourselves if we have the faith that thanks God for all things, even difficulty because we know that we are being conformed to the image of His Son through these experiences. Yes Defens0rFidei, even the bad ones.

God bless

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Good post Don.

If I may take this moment to simplify ,
a piece of meat left in the sun will soon rot and stink , you go outside you say "errrrrrrrr , what is that terrible smell"?
You see it is the rotting meat.
Now you automatically "blame" the rotting meat and make efforts to destroy it.
You never once blame the sun , even though the sun was a primary cause.

(a friend told me he had read this illustration , by John Calvin)

cygnusx1 said:

Good post Don.

If I may take this moment to simplify ,
a piece of meat left in the sun will soon rot and stink , you go outside you say "errrrrrrrr , what is that terrible smell"?
You see it is the rotting meat.
Now you automatically "blame" the rotting meat and make efforts to destroy it.
You never once blame the sun , even though the sun was a primary cause.

(a friend told me he had read this illustration , by John Calvin)

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And also..................Its a lot easier to remove the rotting meat than it is to remove the source which caused it to rot

I get it, I get it..


so like, I am the sun and my skatboard is the..wait no....I am the meat and the sun is the....wait I mean. God is the sun and my skateboard....

Gabriel said:

It's good to have you back, Don.

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Thank you Gabe. It's good to be back.

God bless,
Don

Defens0rFidei said:

Is God the sovereign master of the universe that decides everything?

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Every hair on your head is accounted for , and every sparrow falling to the ground is seen and decreed, yes that covers the 'minor' things .

cygnusx1 said:

Every hair on your head is accounted for , and every sparrow falling to the ground is seen and decreed,

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I've always loved that scripture passage. What a wonderfully intimate and comforting paternal image it is.