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Does God chasten with sicknesses and deaths?
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BeanMak
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Ok, I have read the article, but I am not convinced. What about the story of Ananias and his wife. Acts 5. They lied to Peter, withheld what they had promised, and promptly dropped dead. The outcome of this was: 5 And as he heard these words, Ananias fell <SUP>R219</SUP> down and breathed his last; and great <SUP>R220</SUP> fear came over all who heard of it.
If God is sovreign over all, and "bad" things happen, he allows bad things to happen. When Jesus healed the blind man, the disciples asked who had sinned, the man or his parents. The blindness wasn't a punishment, but rather to be used for the glory of God.
This is hard to explain, but man, being egocentric, and weak sees events that are difficult, as evil, or "wrong." However, if God can not do evil, then maybe it is our perception of the event that is in error.
If God is sovreign over all, and "bad" things happen, he allows bad things to happen. When Jesus healed the blind man, the disciples asked who had sinned, the man or his parents. The blindness wasn't a punishment, but rather to be used for the glory of God.
This is hard to explain, but man, being egocentric, and weak sees events that are difficult, as evil, or "wrong." However, if God can not do evil, then maybe it is our perception of the event that is in error.
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My father is a man of great faith, but he is likely to lose his feet, not because God is punishing him, but because he smoked when he was young. Never once did anyone of us think, "Why is God punishing him so!" No, we thought, "If there was a way to go back in time and keep him from smoking...."
But I do believe that God allows the natural consequences of our behavior to affect our bodies, which may bring us pain and suffering. A homosexual or a sex addict might get multiple STD's and suffer greatly for it. It is not GOd's specific punishment, it is the natural consequences of sin. Like in the example of my dad, his pain is the natural consequence of not giving better care to his body, and of not quitting when he knew it was unhealthy.
Anyone who has every read the entire Bible can pick out instances of God's real punishment, though. Ananais is a good example. God's judgement against David for the unauthorized census is another. The killing of the men who carried the ark improperly is another. He is patient with us now, but he does not always have a sense of humor about our sin. Eventually, all will be called on the carpet and judged for what we have done. Those in Christ will be found guilty but pardoned, but all others will be found guilty and punished.
But I do believe that God allows the natural consequences of our behavior to affect our bodies, which may bring us pain and suffering. A homosexual or a sex addict might get multiple STD's and suffer greatly for it. It is not GOd's specific punishment, it is the natural consequences of sin. Like in the example of my dad, his pain is the natural consequence of not giving better care to his body, and of not quitting when he knew it was unhealthy.
Anyone who has every read the entire Bible can pick out instances of God's real punishment, though. Ananais is a good example. God's judgement against David for the unauthorized census is another. The killing of the men who carried the ark improperly is another. He is patient with us now, but he does not always have a sense of humor about our sin. Eventually, all will be called on the carpet and judged for what we have done. Those in Christ will be found guilty but pardoned, but all others will be found guilty and punished.
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The Old Testament God certainly 'visited people's sins upon them' - and even upon their children! Now I agree that in many cases this may not have been a direct intervention on His part - He may just have permitted the 'natural' consequences of their sin, or removed His protection from them so that the devil could visit sickness etc. on them. (Indeed, in the case of Job, such a thing happened with no reference to disciplining Job for his sins!) However, at times, the divine initiative seems far more active and direct (as with the examples already quoted) - again, who was it destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for their sin, or ordered the destruction of the pagan nations in the Promised Land? The OT prophets had no scruples in declaring destruction from God upon His enemies, or, indded, His own rebellious people - eg Jeremiah 19:3ff "Thus saith the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel; behold I will bring evil upon this place, the which whoever heareth, his ears shall tingle. Because they have forsaken me.. I will cause them to fall by the sword...and I will make this city desolate...I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns the evil that I have pronounced against it, because they have hardened their necks that they might not hear my words." This is, surely, far more than a passive 'permitting' of destruction!
This does appear, at first sight, at odds with the message of Jesus and the New Testament - which led to the Manichean heresy, where the jealous and vengeful Yahweh/Jehovah was seen as a separate and inferior deity to the True God, the loving and merciful Father of Christ. Yet even here we see warnings of how terrible it is to fall into the hands of the Living God. Jesus himself pronounced 'woe' against the Pharisees and others. Ultimately, most of us believe that unrepentant sinners will be punished in Hell - which is a far more drastic thing than a temporary illness, or even physical death - indeed, Paul advocated the handing over of hardened sinners to Satan for the destruction of their flesh, so that their souls might be saved in the day of judgement.
Throughout the Bible it is clear that 'the wrath of God is kindled' against sin and those who cling to it (often in very graphic ways) - therefore, in His mercy, Christ came to take that wrath upon Himself and turn aside the punishment which was due to us. Were there no divine wrath and no consequent punishment, there would have been no atonement to be made!
Anthony
This does appear, at first sight, at odds with the message of Jesus and the New Testament - which led to the Manichean heresy, where the jealous and vengeful Yahweh/Jehovah was seen as a separate and inferior deity to the True God, the loving and merciful Father of Christ. Yet even here we see warnings of how terrible it is to fall into the hands of the Living God. Jesus himself pronounced 'woe' against the Pharisees and others. Ultimately, most of us believe that unrepentant sinners will be punished in Hell - which is a far more drastic thing than a temporary illness, or even physical death - indeed, Paul advocated the handing over of hardened sinners to Satan for the destruction of their flesh, so that their souls might be saved in the day of judgement.
Throughout the Bible it is clear that 'the wrath of God is kindled' against sin and those who cling to it (often in very graphic ways) - therefore, in His mercy, Christ came to take that wrath upon Himself and turn aside the punishment which was due to us. Were there no divine wrath and no consequent punishment, there would have been no atonement to be made!
Anthony
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BeanMak,
It wld seem so. My Pastor did ask the Lord once about this event in the Bible. In short, what he found out was...
1. Annanais and Sapphira were not Christians. The Bible says "a man" named Annanais.
There's another Annanais, who laid hands on Paul. The Bible called him a "certain disciple" named Annanais.
I believe the Bible usu distinguishes believer from non-believer, using words like "brethren", "beloved", etc.
2. The verse did not say God killed him directly. It just says Annanais fell down dead after hearing....
Bad things DO happen to Christians and non-Christians. That's obvious enough. But God does not author or originate them. As in the OT, he allows or permits such things to happen, for whatever reasons.
usu its sin. eg a homosexual lifestyle will lead to Aids. Lying/cheating will lead to jail term, smoking to lung cancer etc. You cant say God gave you the Aids. Or put you in jail or gave you the cancer. we open doors, and Satan happily obliges.
It wld seem so. My Pastor did ask the Lord once about this event in the Bible. In short, what he found out was...
1. Annanais and Sapphira were not Christians. The Bible says "a man" named Annanais.
There's another Annanais, who laid hands on Paul. The Bible called him a "certain disciple" named Annanais.
I believe the Bible usu distinguishes believer from non-believer, using words like "brethren", "beloved", etc.
2. The verse did not say God killed him directly. It just says Annanais fell down dead after hearing....
Bad things DO happen to Christians and non-Christians. That's obvious enough. But God does not author or originate them. As in the OT, he allows or permits such things to happen, for whatever reasons.
usu its sin. eg a homosexual lifestyle will lead to Aids. Lying/cheating will lead to jail term, smoking to lung cancer etc. You cant say God gave you the Aids. Or put you in jail or gave you the cancer. we open doors, and Satan happily obliges.
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9-iron
Football Fan
But I do believe that God allows the natural consequences of our behavior to affect our bodies, which may bring us pain and suffering.
Sickness and death do not come from God, how can they, there is no sickness or death in GOD....Maybe I don't understand, but how can you say God sends sickness and death upon us to "get" our attention....what parent would put sickness or death upon their children no matter how bad they have acted, NONE-if they are of right mind...Now as a parent you can try to lead your kids from harmful behaviour and they don't listen they will suffer the consequences. At that point a parent can say "now looks what happens when you act in such a manner", Sometimes is does take sickness or other circumstances to get our attention, but that doesn't mean God sends them...
If we walk in disobedience and sin, we very well can suffer from sickness or even death, but the suffering I do not believe comes from God, but from our own sin and rebellion....I can agree that God can use these to bring us back to HIM, but I cannot see that God would send sickness or death from HIM......
Sickness and death do not come from God, how can they, there is no sickness or death in GOD....Maybe I don't understand, but how can you say God sends sickness and death upon us to "get" our attention....what parent would put sickness or death upon their children no matter how bad they have acted, NONE-if they are of right mind...Now as a parent you can try to lead your kids from harmful behaviour and they don't listen they will suffer the consequences. At that point a parent can say "now looks what happens when you act in such a manner", Sometimes is does take sickness or other circumstances to get our attention, but that doesn't mean God sends them...
If we walk in disobedience and sin, we very well can suffer from sickness or even death, but the suffering I do not believe comes from God, but from our own sin and rebellion....I can agree that God can use these to bring us back to HIM, but I cannot see that God would send sickness or death from HIM......
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Yep, read abt it already. Job's "great fear" opened to door to Satan. God allowed it. God didnt author his troubles. Satan did. Read carefully. Also consider Hebrew permissive tense.
But whatever, the ending is great. Job got healed, got even more wealth, and lived a long life: (sounds like the health and wealth gospel)
Chp 42:10 ... the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before....12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.
13 He had also seven sons and three daughters.
..... 15 And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job: and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren. 16 After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, even four generations.... 17 So Job died, being old and full of days.
But whatever, the ending is great. Job got healed, got even more wealth, and lived a long life: (sounds like the health and wealth gospel)
Chp 42:10 ... the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before....12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.
13 He had also seven sons and three daughters.
..... 15 And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job: and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren. 16 After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, even four generations.... 17 So Job died, being old and full of days.
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Wow! You really have to stretch that passage to make it say what you want it to! I would guess that you go to a church that says sin is no big deal, based on this thread and a couple others that you've started.
I would never want to worship a God that won't exact justice on evil, even among his own people, especially among his own people. That makes Him a God you can't go to when you are being attacked or harmed. Instead of exercising justice on the guilty, He must just shrug His shoulders and say, "Hey, sin's no big deal to me. I'll get 'em later, even though they are hurting you and others and defaming my name right now. Just deal with it as My unending Grace."
That would be an awful God, and there would be no point praying to Him for relief from persecution or harm.
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9-iron
Football Fan
He did execute justice on HIS own people 2,000 years ago on the cross, Christ died for our sins and took the judgement from God that we deserve. It is called mercy. Mercy is where God took out HIS justice on Christ. Now grace is something different.
I work at a bank, suppose I was stealing and cheating at the bank and the owner found out. He immediately fires me and starts an investigation with charges pending for my actions. In the mean time I am an outcast in the community, can't find another job, and have no means to support my family. People won't even look my direction. Now the owner of the bank decides to have mercy and drop the investigation and all charges. How wonderful I don't have to pay for my crimes and action, the owner has shown great mercy. Now since he has decided to have no charge or allegation against me he has decided to give me back my old job. But, not only that but because I accept his mercy and forgiveness and decide to go to work for him, he gives me a raise, a car and a new office. That is a example of grace.
God saved us from judgement and condemnation. He also made us sons unto Himself and joint heirs in the kingdom with Christ. There is no way we receive judgement now, we are forgiven of past sins, present sins, and future sins. However if we choose to walk in disobedience, and continue to walk in sin and not repent of sin in our lives we can suffer the consequences. This consequences do not come from God, but from our own sinful nature.
Romans 8:1-2 "There therefore is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death"
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AMEN! 9-Iron. Couldnt have explained it better myself, thanks! You sound like someone from my own church! I can see that you are firmly established in grace and righteousness. Praise the Lord. Keep up the good fight of the faith.
Mercy is not getting the punishment we deserve.
Grace is higher than mercy -- getting the blessings we dont deserve.
And all this is possible becos of Jesus and His cross!
Mercy is not getting the punishment we deserve.
Grace is higher than mercy -- getting the blessings we dont deserve.
And all this is possible becos of Jesus and His cross!
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Thunderchild
Sheep in Wolf's clothing
If he doesn't - it is kind of hard to explain Ananias and Saphira, and Elymias, come to that. Oh, and Simon the mage.
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Thunderchild
Sheep in Wolf's clothing
Andrew: Perhaps your pastor would be kind enough to explain who blinded Saul, before he became Paul.
God does not author or originate bad things? Hmmmm. I'm sure that the inhabitants of Sodom and Gommorah will be relieved to hear it, likewise the dead of the Egyptian army at the red sea. Oh yes, and those youths who taunted Elisha. The list IS kind of long, I'll leave it there.
God does not author or originate bad things? Hmmmm. I'm sure that the inhabitants of Sodom and Gommorah will be relieved to hear it, likewise the dead of the Egyptian army at the red sea. Oh yes, and those youths who taunted Elisha. The list IS kind of long, I'll leave it there.
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Ah well, Thunderchild, at that point Saul was not a Christian, so God had no scruples about treating him in this way; and anyway it was obviously a natural consequence of his sin in persecuting the church.
I wonder quite where the verse about 'judgement beginning with the household of God' fits in to this theology?
Not that I at all reject the doctrine of grace atoning for our sins, regardless of our deserts. In and through Christ we are attributed with a righteousness that is not our own, as a free, unmerited gift. However, wilful sin committed in defiance of that gracious intervention does, according to many Scriptures, potentially bring terrible consequences if not repented of. some of these are direct consequences of the sin itself - eg if you lead a promiscuous lifestyle you leave yourself open to the risk of various sexually transmitted diseases; perfectly 'natural' medical cause and effect, no divine intervention required. However, the Bible also warns that 'it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God' - as rebellious Israelites were directly destroyed by Him in the wilderness, we cannot rule out the possibility of His anger breaking out against us, if we despise and abuse His grace shown towards us on the cross. However, if we remain tender-hearted, living in the light of His sacrifice and redemption, then we have nothing to fear, and His love coves a multitude of sins.
Anthony
I wonder quite where the verse about 'judgement beginning with the household of God' fits in to this theology?
Not that I at all reject the doctrine of grace atoning for our sins, regardless of our deserts. In and through Christ we are attributed with a righteousness that is not our own, as a free, unmerited gift. However, wilful sin committed in defiance of that gracious intervention does, according to many Scriptures, potentially bring terrible consequences if not repented of. some of these are direct consequences of the sin itself - eg if you lead a promiscuous lifestyle you leave yourself open to the risk of various sexually transmitted diseases; perfectly 'natural' medical cause and effect, no divine intervention required. However, the Bible also warns that 'it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God' - as rebellious Israelites were directly destroyed by Him in the wilderness, we cannot rule out the possibility of His anger breaking out against us, if we despise and abuse His grace shown towards us on the cross. However, if we remain tender-hearted, living in the light of His sacrifice and redemption, then we have nothing to fear, and His love coves a multitude of sins.
Anthony
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