Does God change depending on circumstances (or, are prophecies contingent?)

HatGuy · Dec 29, 2019

Hi everyone, does God's will for us change if circumstances change?

Scenario: God seems to place on someone's heart (mine) to plant a church in Philadelphia (would involve immigrating).

Several prophecies and words confirm this for my wife and I. They all seem quite specific and come from some who had no idea about it.

But after three years of working on it, several circumstances seem to prevent it. Finances (no job offers, no US-based clients for business. Health. Emotional capacity. And difficult visa process. My lawyer even got cancer. Meanwhile, lots of doors open back home to further ministry and growth in business.

Possible reasons for the discrepancy:

1. Circumstances changed and God would rather have us stay. Prophecies were contingent on circumstances.
2. Prophecies were all false
3. Prophecy no longer exists as a gift today
4. Prophecies were contingent on our own ability, but we failed (my emotional health and my wife's is in the doldrums, after years of living in limbo and feeling the pressure of planting. I don't feel I personally have the capacity to immigrate my family and plant a church, my personality also doesn't, in my mind, match up. I live with massive anxiety every day, which will only get worse if we immigrate)
5. Prophecy was only to highlight a possibility God was happy with, not to give direction
6. Prophecy was used to test us - but to test to see if we would go? Or to test we would stay? As a husband, staying seems more biblical to take care of my family - we are not in a place to take a risk. But, of course, faith often involves a risk! So, do we miss our inheritance by deciding to stay?

I've posted this in the controversial forum to allow for wild theories and speculation, rather than the advice forum where we can't debate. It's a nice opportunity to let our theology work on a real-life situation rather than a theoretical one.

The answers to these questions talk a lot into God's sovereignty and his call and our decision-making. Should make for an interesting debate!

Dave L · Dec 29, 2019

HatGuy said:
Hi everyone, does God's will for us change if circumstances change?

Scenario: God seems to place on someone's heart (mine) to plant a church in Philadelphia (would involve immigrating).

Several prophecies and words confirm this for my wife and I. They all seem quite specific and come from some who had no idea about it.

But after three years of working on it, several circumstances seem to prevent it. Finances (no job offers, no US-based clients for business. Health. Emotional capacity. And difficult visa process. My lawyer even got cancer. Meanwhile, lots of doors open back home to further ministry and growth in business.

Possible reasons for the discrepancy:

1. Circumstances changed and God would rather have us stay. Prophecies were contingent on circumstances.
2. Prophecies were all false
3. Prophecy no longer exists as a gift today
4. Prophecies were contingent on our own ability, but we failed (my emotional health and my wife's is in the doldrums, after years of living in limbo and feeling the pressure of planting. I don't feel I personally have the capacity to immigrate my family and plant a church, my personality also doesn't, in my mind, match up. I live with massive anxiety every day, which will only get worse if we immigrate)
5. Prophecy was only to highlight a possibility God was happy with, not to give direction
6. Prophecy was used to test us - but to test to see if we would go? Or to test we would stay? As a husband, staying seems more biblical to take care of my family - we are not in a place to take a risk. But, of course, faith often involves a risk! So, do we miss our inheritance by deciding to stay?

I've posted this in the controversial forum to allow for wild theories and speculation, rather than the advice forum where we can't debate. It's a nice opportunity to let our theology work on a real-life situation rather than a theoretical one.

The answers to these questions talk a lot into God's sovereignty and his call and our decision-making. Should make for an interesting debate!

I don't believe any prophecy today is true. So possibly he is teaching this to you experientially. Faith is a better guide in matters like this. You cannot believe to make it happen. But if God gives you faith, it's a sure way to know you are on the right track.

HatGuy · Dec 29, 2019

Dave L said:
I don't believe any prophecy today is true. So possibly he is teaching this to you experientially. Faith is a better guide in matters like this. You cannot believe to make it happen. But if God gives you faith, it's a sure way to know you are on the right track.

And if you had faith in the beginning but now don't? Does that make one faithless, or was the original faith not faith?

SkyWriting · Dec 29, 2019

HatGuy said:
Hi everyone, does God's will for us change if circumstances change?

Scenario: God seems to place on someone's heart (mine) to plant a church in Philadelphia (would involve immigrating).

Several prophecies and words confirm this for my wife and I. They all seem quite specific and come from some who had no idea about it.

But after three years of working on it, several circumstances seem to prevent it. Finances (no job offers, no US-based clients for business. Health. Emotional capacity. And difficult visa process. My lawyer even got cancer. Meanwhile, lots of doors open back home to further ministry and growth in business.

Possible reasons for the discrepancy:

1. Circumstances changed and God would rather have us stay. Prophecies were contingent on circumstances.
2. Prophecies were all false
3. Prophecy no longer exists as a gift today
4. Prophecies were contingent on our own ability, but we failed (my emotional health and my wife's is in the doldrums, after years of living in limbo and feeling the pressure of planting. I don't feel I personally have the capacity to immigrate my family and plant a church, my personality also doesn't, in my mind, match up. I live with massive anxiety every day, which will only get worse if we immigrate)
5. Prophecy was only to highlight a possibility God was happy with, not to give direction
6. Prophecy was used to test us - but to test to see if we would go? Or to test we would stay? As a husband, staying seems more biblical to take care of my family - we are not in a place to take a risk. But, of course, faith often involves a risk! So, do we miss our inheritance by deciding to stay?

I've posted this in the controversial forum to allow for wild theories and speculation, rather than the advice forum where we can't debate. It's a nice opportunity to let our theology work on a real-life situation rather than a theoretical one.

The answers to these questions talk a lot into God's sovereignty and his call and our decision-making. Should make for an interesting debate!

Prophecy does exist, but it only works for you. I mean to say that God will prophesy to you and you can confirm that God informed you about something, but don't try and convince anyone else. That's wasting your credibility that you don't need to loose.

God does not provide prophesy that is "sharable". He only offers "personal prophecy" as a gift, just for your own edification.

God never changes his mind or His perfect plans, even as a result of prayer. But from the human perspective, it can seem that way if you allow God to provide the prayer.

Dave L · Dec 29, 2019

HatGuy said:
And if you had faith in the beginning but now don't? Does that make one faithless, or was the original faith not faith?

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Not a work of the flesh. When we have it we know the answer to our prayer is on the way. If it dissipates, it probably wasn't true faith.

SkyWriting · Dec 29, 2019

Dave L said:
Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Not a work of the flesh. When we have it we know the answer to our prayer is on the way. If it dissipates, it probably wasn't true faith.

Nail on head.

Psalm 139:4
Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.

1 Corinthians 2:11
For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

Psalm 139
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. O Lord, you have searched me and known me! You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar.

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.

SeventyOne · Dec 29, 2019

HatGuy said:
Possible reasons for the discrepancy:

1. Circumstances changed and God would rather have us stay. Prophecies were contingent on circumstances.
2. Prophecies were all false
3. Prophecy no longer exists as a gift today
4. Prophecies were contingent on our own ability, but we failed (my emotional health and my wife's is in the doldrums, after years of living in limbo and feeling the pressure of planting. I don't feel I personally have the capacity to immigrate my family and plant a church, my personality also doesn't, in my mind, match up. I live with massive anxiety every day, which will only get worse if we immigrate)
5. Prophecy was only to highlight a possibility God was happy with, not to give direction
6. Prophecy was used to test us - but to test to see if we would go? Or to test we would stay? As a husband, staying seems more biblical to take care of my family - we are not in a place to take a risk. But, of course, faith often involves a risk! So, do we miss our inheritance by deciding to stay?

7. If it was a real prophecy (and that's a big IF), His timing is not your timing and you are being impatient.

Dave L · Dec 29, 2019

SeventyOne said:
7. If it was a real prophecy (and that's a big IF), His timing is not your timing and you are being impatient.

In the OT false prophets were recognized by failed predictions.

SeventyOne · Dec 29, 2019

Dave L said:
In the OT false prophets were recognized by failed predictions.

Technically, this would be considered a word of knowledge, not a prophecy. So, in that way I did misspeak.

Dave L · Dec 29, 2019

SeventyOne said:
Technically, this would be considered a word of knowledge, not a prophecy. So, in that way I did misspeak.

It's all the same.

HatGuy · Dec 29, 2019

SeventyOne said:
7. If it was a real prophecy (and that's a big IF), His timing is not your timing and you are being impatient.

Another possibility. Although I must say, having God keep you in limbo for years seems a bit odd. It's all rather easier said than done. Especially because a wife and kids need stability. Abraham may be a good example, but his circumstances seem extraordinary. In our case, we can't commit to many things because there is no clarity on when the day will come. My kids are even scared to make friends.

Of course, though, your suggestion is a good possibility to be added to the list.

rnmomof7 · Dec 29, 2019

SkyWriting said:
Prophecy does exist, but it only works for you. I mean to say that God will prophesy to you and you can confirm that God informed you about something, but don't try and convince anyone else. That's wasting your credibility that you don't need to loose.

God does not provide prophesy that is "sharable". He only offers "personal prophecy" as a gift, just for your own edification.

God never changes his mind or His perfect plans, even as a result of prayer. But from the human perspective, it can seem that way if you allow God to provide the prayer.

How does one know that it is a prophecy from God ?

redleghunter · Dec 29, 2019

HatGuy said:
Hi everyone, does God's will for us change if circumstances change?

Scenario: God seems to place on someone's heart (mine) to plant a church in Philadelphia (would involve immigrating).

Several prophecies and words confirm this for my wife and I. They all seem quite specific and come from some who had no idea about it.

But after three years of working on it, several circumstances seem to prevent it. Finances (no job offers, no US-based clients for business. Health. Emotional capacity. And difficult visa process. My lawyer even got cancer. Meanwhile, lots of doors open back home to further ministry and growth in business.

Possible reasons for the discrepancy:

1. Circumstances changed and God would rather have us stay. Prophecies were contingent on circumstances.
2. Prophecies were all false
3. Prophecy no longer exists as a gift today
4. Prophecies were contingent on our own ability, but we failed (my emotional health and my wife's is in the doldrums, after years of living in limbo and feeling the pressure of planting. I don't feel I personally have the capacity to immigrate my family and plant a church, my personality also doesn't, in my mind, match up. I live with massive anxiety every day, which will only get worse if we immigrate)
5. Prophecy was only to highlight a possibility God was happy with, not to give direction
6. Prophecy was used to test us - but to test to see if we would go? Or to test we would stay? As a husband, staying seems more biblical to take care of my family - we are not in a place to take a risk. But, of course, faith often involves a risk! So, do we miss our inheritance by deciding to stay?

I've posted this in the controversial forum to allow for wild theories and speculation, rather than the advice forum where we can't debate. It's a nice opportunity to let our theology work on a real-life situation rather than a theoretical one.

The answers to these questions talk a lot into God's sovereignty and his call and our decision-making. Should make for an interesting debate!

Are there churches you are affiliated with in Philadelphia? I ask because there was probably something about Philadelphia that placed this on your heart.

Ronald · Dec 29, 2019

HatGuy said:
Hi everyone, does God's will for us change if circumstances change?

Scenario: God seems to place on someone's heart (mine) to plant a church in Philadelphia (would involve immigrating).

Several prophecies and words confirm this for my wife and I. They all seem quite specific and come from some who had no idea about it.

But after three years of working on it, several circumstances seem to prevent it. Finances (no job offers, no US-based clients for business. Health. Emotional capacity. And difficult visa process. My lawyer even got cancer. Meanwhile, lots of doors open back home to further ministry and growth in business.

Possible reasons for the discrepancy:

1. Circumstances changed and God would rather have us stay. Prophecies were contingent on circumstances.
2. Prophecies were all false
3. Prophecy no longer exists as a gift today
4. Prophecies were contingent on our own ability, but we failed (my emotional health and my wife's is in the doldrums, after years of living in limbo and feeling the pressure of planting. I don't feel I personally have the capacity to immigrate my family and plant a church, my personality also doesn't, in my mind, match up. I live with massive anxiety every day, which will only get worse if we immigrate)
5. Prophecy was only to highlight a possibility God was happy with, not to give direction
6. Prophecy was used to test us - but to test to see if we would go? Or to test we would stay? As a husband, staying seems more biblical to take care of my family - we are not in a place to take a risk. But, of course, faith often involves a risk! So, do we miss our inheritance by deciding to stay?

I've posted this in the controversial forum to allow for wild theories and speculation, rather than the advice forum where we can't debate. It's a nice opportunity to let our theology work on a real-life situation rather than a theoretical one.

The answers to these questions talk a lot into God's sovereignty and his call and our decision-making. Should make for an interesting debate!

Well meaning people (the super spiritual type) like to go around and tell everyone they have a message for them. "It's heavy on my heart and I believe God is speaking to you through me right now ..." I came from a Four Square church where spiritual gifts are alive and working - I believe that - but sometimes there are mixed messages from their own self generated thoughts and they may not be able to distinguish them from true messages from God. These prophecies or words of knowledge may occur, but they may be misunderstood or just not from God at all. People pray in tongues too but don't know what they are saying, yet they choose to pray for you in tongues. How does that edify me? It doesn't.
And what was the rule in the Old Testament for prophets? Every prophecy needed to be 100% accurate every time or they were stoned to death. People today that have the gift of prophecy need to be careful.
THAT said, God knows the future perfectly in order, He doesn't change His mind. You didn't receive a real prophecy OR if you did, it was meant for further ahead in the future.
Don't worry about tomorrow, just do what you see that needs to be done where you are. Besides, do you think that God can't use someone else in Philadelphia who is well equipped.to do His work? We aren't talking about a tribe in a remote part of the world that hasn't heard the gospel in need of a church.

HatGuy · Dec 30, 2019

redleghunter said:
Are there churches you are affiliated with in Philadelphia? I ask because there was probably something about Philadelphia that placed this on your heart.

Thanks for engaging on the thread @redleghunter , appreciate it .

It's a good question. The answer is "no". That's part of what has made all this quite interesting.

The first time my wife and I visited Philly we hated it. We even somehow found ourselves in the "badlands" - we experienced the America we're not marketed! We stayed in West Philly. I've seen my fair share of squalor in South Africa, but was genuinely surprised to find that in America.

We got back and didn't talk about it for weeks!

We decided we wouldn't go but rather join a friend in another city, but despite hating Philly, I couldn't get rid of the fire in my heart for it. I joke and say it's like I had a fire in my heart for the "ugly girlfriend". It just doesn't make sense, does it? A week after deciding we wouldn't go, we got a very specific "word" about the city and its geography and things we saw from a friend who had no idea about what this city was she was seeing us in in her mind. It was very specific - and not the first.

The second time we visited we stayed in the suburbs and saw the beauty of the place. Also, the wealth! Which is equally as intimidating as the poverty.

We met some church leaders while we were there and everyone was really kind to us and keen for more churches (there are surprisingly very little non-denom churches in Philly). But no one there is affiliated with us.

HatGuy · Dec 30, 2019

Thanks everyone for your kind words

redleghunter · Dec 30, 2019

HatGuy said:
Thanks for engaging on the thread @redleghunter , appreciate it .

It's a good question. The answer is "no". That's part of what has made all this quite interesting.

The first time my wife and I visited Philly we hated it. We even somehow found ourselves in the "badlands" - we experienced the America we're not marketed! We stayed in West Philly. I've seen my fair share of squalor in South Africa, but was genuinely surprised to find that in America.

We got back and didn't talk about it for weeks!

We decided we wouldn't go but rather join a friend in another city, but despite hating Philly, I couldn't get rid of the fire in my heart for it. I joke and say it's like I had a fire in my heart for the "ugly girlfriend". It just doesn't make sense, does it? A week after deciding we wouldn't go, we got a very specific "word" about the city and its geography and things we saw from a friend who had no idea about what this city was she was seeing us in in her mind. It was very specific - and not the first.

The second time we visited we stayed in the suburbs and saw the beauty of the place. Also, the wealth! Which is equally as intimidating as the poverty.

We met some church leaders while we were there and everyone was really kind to us and keen for more churches (there are surprisingly very little non-denom churches in Philly). But no one there is affiliated with us.

Perhaps a first step is partnering with a church in Philly, one of the churches you visited. A partnership with a church is a good step as they know the terrain and greatest need. If well enough you can go on a site visits ask which churches are good planters and help support a plant. You would provide them a launch point in South Africa for them to send missionaries and you could in exchange send some of the younger folk in your church to the US as missionaries as well.

This way you can continue your advancements in SA gaining resources to help the plant in Philly and help the Philly missionaries that come to you.

JAL · Dec 30, 2019

HatGuy said:
Hi everyone, does God's will for us change if circumstances change?

Scenario: God seems to place on someone's heart (mine) to plant a church in Philadelphia (would involve immigrating).

Several prophecies and words confirm this for my wife and I. They all seem quite specific and come from some who had no idea about it.

But after three years of working on it, several circumstances seem to prevent it. Finances (no job offers, no US-based clients for business. Health. Emotional capacity. And difficult visa process. My lawyer even got cancer. Meanwhile, lots of doors open back home to further ministry and growth in business.

Possible reasons for the discrepancy:

1. Circumstances changed and God would rather have us stay. Prophecies were contingent on circumstances.
2. Prophecies were all false
3. Prophecy no longer exists as a gift today
4. Prophecies were contingent on our own ability, but we failed (my emotional health and my wife's is in the doldrums, after years of living in limbo and feeling the pressure of planting. I don't feel I personally have the capacity to immigrate my family and plant a church, my personality also doesn't, in my mind, match up. I live with massive anxiety every day, which will only get worse if we immigrate)
5. Prophecy was only to highlight a possibility God was happy with, not to give direction
6. Prophecy was used to test us - but to test to see if we would go? Or to test we would stay? As a husband, staying seems more biblical to take care of my family - we are not in a place to take a risk. But, of course, faith often involves a risk! So, do we miss our inheritance by deciding to stay?

I've posted this in the controversial forum to allow for wild theories and speculation, rather than the advice forum where we can't debate. It's a nice opportunity to let our theology work on a real-life situation rather than a theoretical one.

The answers to these questions talk a lot into God's sovereignty and his call and our decision-making. Should make for an interesting debate!

In order for a prophet to know for sure that God was speaking, God had to give him a feeling of 100% certainty. This has a corollary, namely, that the people couldn't be sure that the prophet spoke from God unless they too felt 100% certainty. This-transfer-of-certainty is why a prophet is the most effective evangelist - he leaves his audience 100% sure that God has spoken.

Evidently you didn't experience 100% certainty. Therefore you should be very skeptical that it was a real prophecy.

Never hurts to pray for more certainty, but I would abstain from treating it as a prophecy until your level of certainty, during prayer, rises to a level high enough to place a demand on your conscience. Meaning, go forward with the ministry only if your certainty reaches a level where you cannot abstain in good conscience.

nolidad · Dec 30, 2019

HatGuy said:
Hi everyone, does God's will for us change if circumstances change?

Scenario: God seems to place on someone's heart (mine) to plant a church in Philadelphia (would involve immigrating).

Several prophecies and words confirm this for my wife and I. They all seem quite specific and come from some who had no idea about it.

But after three years of working on it, several circumstances seem to prevent it. Finances (no job offers, no US-based clients for business. Health. Emotional capacity. And difficult visa process. My lawyer even got cancer. Meanwhile, lots of doors open back home to further ministry and growth in business.

Possible reasons for the discrepancy:

1. Circumstances changed and God would rather have us stay. Prophecies were contingent on circumstances.
2. Prophecies were all false
3. Prophecy no longer exists as a gift today
4. Prophecies were contingent on our own ability, but we failed (my emotional health and my wife's is in the doldrums, after years of living in limbo and feeling the pressure of planting. I don't feel I personally have the capacity to immigrate my family and plant a church, my personality also doesn't, in my mind, match up. I live with massive anxiety every day, which will only get worse if we immigrate)
5. Prophecy was only to highlight a possibility God was happy with, not to give direction
6. Prophecy was used to test us - but to test to see if we would go? Or to test we would stay? As a husband, staying seems more biblical to take care of my family - we are not in a place to take a risk. But, of course, faith often involves a risk! So, do we miss our inheritance by deciding to stay?

I've posted this in the controversial forum to allow for wild theories and speculation, rather than the advice forum where we can't debate. It's a nice opportunity to let our theology work on a real-life situation rather than a theoretical one.

The answers to these questions talk a lot into God's sovereignty and his call and our decision-making. Should make for an interesting debate!

Gods will never changes. Gods plan for people can and does change based on choices and decisions we make.
Prophecy will never change unless God put in a conditional warning in the prophecy. so we can rest assured that when God used a prophet to sa y " I will", with no conditions added in the prophecy, it will come to pass as written.

1213 · Dec 30, 2019

HatGuy said:
Does God change...

I believe God doesn’t change. But situations can change and then there can be different solutions. I don’t know about your situation, what is the correct explanation. But maybe it is not now right time for the job, maybe it is later. Anyway, I think it is always good to love others and do the best you can do at this moment.

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