Does God already know who is going to be saved and who won't?

[brian78]

1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the
heavenly places in Christ,
1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the
world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.
In love
1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus
Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of
His will,
1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely
bestowed on us in the Beloved.

The above is Ephesians 1:3-6 and talks about predestination. This passage is confusing to me, does it mean God already knows who will choose Him and who won't?

 

[Believes Gods Sovereignity]

The above is Ephesians 1:3-6 and talks about predestination. This passage is confusing to me, does it mean God already knows who will choose Him and who won't?

Brian, im here to tell you this and this alone. You will always have people denying what God can and cannot do. You have found that God has said what he has done with his creation. He says it for a reason. Its there, study it for yourself and come up with your own conclusions about predestination. And if you have any questions, i will be more than happy to assist you. May God bless you and keep you in his word.

 

[Beoga]

scripture says he knows.
You also believe that he is an all knowing God right? Well that means he knows EVERYTHING. He knows past, present and future, especially since he is outside of time.

 

[Reformationist]

The above is Ephesians 1:3-6 and talks about predestination. This passage is confusing to me, does it mean God already knows who will choose Him and who won't?

God does not just "know who will choose Him and who won't." He has ordained it before the foundations of the earth.

God bless

 

[HoT-MetaL]

Yes, revelation speaks about The Book of the Lamb being a list of people going to heaven. YAY!

 

[lands21]

Looks like you have answered your own questions!! Read all of Ephesians, and Romans to. Predestination is all over scripture.

 

[HoT-MetaL]

This was the scripture i was after.

Revelation 21:27

27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[brian78]

God does not just "know who will choose Him and who won't." He has ordained it before the foundations of the earth.

God bless

So this means we don't really have free will? At least in terms of being eternally saved, I don't think God cares whether I have a Mountain Dew or a Coke right now.

This brings a dilemma to my mind. Why does God (who is a loving, caring God) create a human being when He knows that creation will not choose him and suffer eternally? Sorry if this question has been posed before.

 

[HoT-MetaL]

I struggled to comprehend this. So I posted it a few days ago. Heres the URL.

http://www.christianforums.com/t96844

God Bless, metal... hope it helps!

 

[brian78]

Thanks hotmetal.

 

[brian78]

I found a good website explaining predestination.

http://members.datafast.net.au/sggram/f203.htm

I especially like this illustration:

Predestination Illustrated

Imagine you are considering embarking on a train journey.

Certain things are predetermined: the schedule, the price, the route, the conditions and rights of travel, and, most important of all, the destination. Those things have long been decided by the authority or company. You have no direct or immediate say in those things, although it is fair to say that they have been determined with your interests generally at heart.

The company also has advertised its desire for you to use the train service it provides, and given you every assistance and encouragement.

The company has also made the system wholly safe and reliable so that you can use it with the utmost confidence.

To reach the destination, however, you must get on the train and stay on the train, and to do those things, you must make decisions and fulfill conditions. These decisions and conditions are well within your capacity to handle responsibly.

Everything therefore has been set up so that, if you choose, you can get on the train,. stay on the train, reach your destination. That's the way predestination works.

So God wants everyone to be saved and we do have free will to accept or reject His salvation.

 

[HoT-MetaL]

Amen.

Thats the clearest explanation ive ever heard.

 

[Reformationist]

So this means we don't really have free will?

Brian, I have no idea how you define "free will" so, at this point, I could not answer your question. If you mean "do we freely make the choices we make according to our nature and those choices are not forced by God" then yes, we freely make choices. However, man is never completely "free." In his unregenerate state he longs ONLY to do the will of his father, satan. So, that's what he does. God does not hold back some who would otherwise wish to come to him. Apart from the regenerative grace of God none of us would ever submit to Him in faith. Those to whom the Lord graciously supplies salvitic faith freely and gladly submit to Him as Lord and Savior. Those to whom the Lord does not supply this faith remain dead in their trespasses and sins and neither desire to obey the Lord God nor do they ever do so.

Why does God (who is a loving, caring God) create a human being when He knows that creation will not choose him and suffer eternally?

The dilemma you are are experiencing is a result of your desire to protect God from seeming unjust. It is the common humanistic approach to the holiness of God that implies obligation upon God to love and care for all of His creation. This is not the biblical picture of our holy and just and merciful God. The Bible is clear that God has created "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction." The Bible is very clear that those who are/will be saved are saved solely by the grace of God through the propitiatory sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ.

God has revealed to us the purpose for which He creates these "vessels of wrath":

Romans 9:16-18, 22-24
So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

The mercy of our Lord is made all that much clearer to we who are the vessels of His mercy because we are privvy to the righteous and just wrath that He visits upon the iniquity of those who have rightfully earned His wrath.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

I found a good website explaining predestination.

http://members.datafast.net.au/sggram/f203.htm

I especially like this illustration:

So God wants everyone to be saved and we do have free will to accept or reject His salvation.

That is one of the most unbiblical, anthropocentric illustrations of the sovereign will of God that I've ever seen.

I am very clear as to the reason that this type of doctrine tickles the ears of people. People love to proclaim the unmerited favor of God in their salvation but then deny it in the same breath by qualifying their inclusion in the family of God as their own work of "choosing, getting on the train, staying on the train, and reaching their destination."

The reason we "choose" to submit to the Lord is because He has graciously supplied us with a heart that longs to do His will. All who have been given this gracious gift are inclined to the Lord in obedience. This inclination is neither a mental assent because of our superior intellect, nor is it a genuine response from our inherent holiness. Now that we have been "made alive" in Christ we seek after the Lord of the living, God. When we were "dead in our trespasses and sins" we sought after the lord of the dead, satan. Prior to God's monergistic work of regeneration we neither desired to do God's will, nor did we seek it:

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Our seeking of God is the result of being made alive in the Lord:

1 John 4:19
We love Him because He first loved us.

If we are made alive in Him, we choose Him, we get on His train, we stay on His train and we reach our destination. We do all this because of His sovereign power to preserve us. The good news of the Gospel is not that we are faithful. It's that He is.

God bless

 

[AVBunyan]

The reason we "choose" to submit to the Lord is because He has graciously supplied us with a heart that longs to do His will.
If we are made alive in Him, we choose Him, we get on His train, we stay on His train and we reach our destination. We do all this because of His sovereign power to preserve us. The good news of the Gospel is not that we are faithful. It's that He is.God bless

Nice work - this is refreshing to hear these days

 

[Reformationist]

Nice work - this is refreshing to hear these days

Thanks AVB. It's nice to be encouraged.

God bless

 

[brian78]

Brian, I have no idea how you define "free will" so, at this point, I could not answer your question. If you mean "do we freely make the choices we make according to our nature and those choices are not forced by God" then yes, we freely make choices. However, man is never completely "free." In his unregenerate state he longs ONLY to do the will of his father, satan.

Yes, your definition of free will is essentially mine.

So, that's what he does. God does not hold back some who would otherwise wish to come to him. Apart from the regenerative grace of God
none of us would ever submit to Him in faith.

So God does not preordain some people for heaven and others for hell?

Those to whom the Lord graciously supplies salvitic faith freely and gladly submit to Him as Lord and Savior. Those to whom the Lord does not supply this faith remain dead in their trespasses and sins and neither desire to obey the Lord God nor do they ever do so.

But, now you've confused me. The sentence before you said God does not hold back anyone who would want to come to him (or did I misinterpret that sentence). And here you're telling me that God gives faith to some and not to others.

The dilemma you are are experiencing is a result of your desire to protect God from seeming unjust.

Wrong. I'm not trying to protect my image of God, I'm trying to understand God.

The Bible is very clear that those who are/will be saved are saved solely by the grace of God through the propitiatory sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Agreed.

The illustration I provided was not meant to be biblical and it was most definitely anthropocentric. The anthropocentricity made predestination a little clearer to me.

 

[Reformationist]

So God does not preordain some people for heaven and others for hell?

Of course He does.

But, now you've confused me. The sentence before you said God does not hold back anyone who would want to come to him (or did I misinterpret that sentence).

As far as I can tell you didn't misinterpret that sentence. The point that you should take note of is that none of us, after the Fall, ever naturally desire to obey God, nor do we seek Him. All of our deeds are sinful. We don't desire to fellowship with God. In fact, we rebel against Him. The problem is that many people see someone longing or seeking for the things like peace and joy and contentment and we make the connection that they are seeking for God because we, as Christians, recognize that it is God who provides those things. The problem is that the unregenerate person wants the benefits without the Benefactor. They want the blessings of fellowship with God without having to submit to His Lordship. It doesn't work that way.

And here you're telling me that God gives faith to some and not to others.

Of course He does. He sets apart a covenant people unto Himself and through those people, originally the Israelites and now all of Christendom, reveals Himself to the world.

God is under no obligation to give anyone faith, much less everyone. Those to whom the Lord graciously gives salvitic faith are the recipients of God's mercy. Those who suffer the righteous wrath of God against their sins are the recipients of justice. No one receives undue wrath or punishment from God. No one is subjected to injustice at the hands of God.

Wrong. I'm not trying to protect my image of God, I'm trying to understand God.

My apologies. What I meant was that those who take issue with the idea of God foreordaining some to hell do so because of the overinflated value they place on the creation rather than the Creator. People make the erroneous assumption that because all are the creation of God then all are naturally entitled to the same things from God. Not so. Salvation is of the Lord and by His grace (unmerited favor) it is applied to unjust, unrighteous, sinful people. God is never obligated to give His grace. If He was obligated it would not be grace. It would be justice.

The illustration I provided was not meant to be biblical and it was most definitely anthropocentric.

If you agree that the illustration is contrary to the Gospel and places man at the center of the plan of redemption, why did you provide it?

The anthropocentricity made predestination a little clearer to me.

Now I'm confused. How can an untruth make anything clearer?

God bless

 

[israelthebride]

"...for GOD so LOVED the world..."

"...GOD'S PLAN is that none should perish..."

"...I came to SAVE the world..."

I believe that all are predestined to BE with YH'SHWH, FOREVER.

Many choose not to.


YH'SHWH is LOVE.
All are CHOSEN,
but
Many choose not to be CHOSEN.

This is my belief.

LOVE, RICOEL

 

[Benedicta00]

The above is Ephesians 1:3-6 and talks about predestination. This passage is confusing to me, does it mean God already knows who will choose Him and who won't?

Yes, and He uses our our choices in His plan of salvtion.