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Well, that is just another's stimuli'ed brain trying to stimulate you with apparent "logic." Now you probably can tell that I'm a Christian, and therefore hold none of what i have said in truth. I was coming from a naturalistic worldview. If you want my opinion, I would say there is free will, because i believe in the supernatural which would allow something above this physical world, which would allow free will, as shown by my previous arguments against free will.
Hmmm... odd that a Christian would do that. Well here we go. Using curiosity as my basis.Perhaps you could start offering some arguements for the existance of freewill then?
Just being a christian does not do it, I just had a lengthy conversation with a fine christian that did in fact not belief god bestowed freewill upon his creation.
Well you could take it up with grayangel. I just know its his position.Hmmm... odd that a Christian would do that. Well here we go. Using curiosity as my basis.
Note: Some may call me out on making a straw man. If anyone has a different view than what I am attacking, than kudos to you. I am attacking one view right now.
Curiosity is the killer to any no-free-will argument. Curiosity is what drives a person to think outside the box. If thought and action derive from simple stimuli, then where does curiosity come from? A stimuli? All of the stimuli? Well, you can come up with an almost infinite amount(and actually you can come up with an infinite amount) for a few things. But stimuli isn't infinite as it is part of the physical world, and therefore you can't have a finite amount of stimuli to make an infinite amount of possibilities. What goes in must come out in equal proportions. Like a math formula.
Human-free-will does not trump God's first choice.Do you think free will exists?
Yes. A free-will is a will free to act according to its nature.
If yes, how does it exist if cause and effect determines everything?
Of all of the possible combinations of all of the choices by all of the people of all the generations, God first chose to create exactly this creation.
A human-free-will is a will free to act according to its nature, it is not a will free from being known.
If you do not think cause and effect determines everything, then give an example.
I am trying to figure out what it is you are saying here?Human-free-will does not trump God's first choice.
I am wondering if you could just tell me why you believe free will exists, instead of creating arguments that may or may not be held by people in this thread.Hmmm... odd that a Christian would do that. Well here we go. Using curiosity as my basis.
Note: Some may call me out on making a straw man. If anyone has a different view than what I am attacking, than kudos to you. I am attacking one view right now.
Curiosity is the killer to any no-free-will argument. Curiosity is what drives a person to think outside the box. If thought and action derive from simple stimuli, then where does curiosity come from? A stimuli? All of the stimuli? Well, you can come up with an almost infinite amount(and actually you can come up with an infinite amount) for a few things. But stimuli isn't infinite as it is part of the physical world, and therefore you can't have a finite amount of stimuli to make an infinite amount of possibilities. What goes in must come out in equal proportions. Like a math formula.
No. You weren't. You were perhaps, making an attempt, but you don't understand a naturalistic world-view, and so you only succeeded in demonstrating that.I was coming from a naturalistic worldview.
The point is that you're assuming all basal behaviour is instinct, and anything contrary to basal, animalisitic behaviour must result in free will - after all, only a human could consciously choose to leave its hand on a heated hob, right?I never said it was opposed to logic. They go hand-in-hand a lot of the time. When you take your hand off of a hot knob, that is stimuli telling you to take it off. Past stimuli tells you how to and why. And that is why free will doesn't exist. Because it is a series of stimuli affecting other stimuli.
Free will has to be able to go against logic, against all stimuli. The choice to keep your hand on the hot knob. And here is the confusing part. The idea of keeping your hand on the knob could be said to be pure stimulus from past experience. But the idea of curiosity destroys my entire idea that there is no free will.
I am trying to figure out what it is you are saying here?
Are you saying that: gods first choice was to create "exactly this creation," and that part of that choice was that he gave humans free will?
Also, that god knows what we will do with this free will?
If so, is it true that you think god is omniscient?
I am trying to figure out what it is you are saying here?
Are you saying that: gods first choice was to create "exactly this creation," and that part of that choice was that he gave humans free will?
Also, that god knows what we will do with this free will?
If so, is it true that you think god is omniscient?
Hmmm... odd that a Christian would do that. Well here we go. Using curiosity as my basis.
Note: Some may call me out on making a straw man. If anyone has a different view than what I am attacking, than kudos to you. I am attacking one view right now.
Curiosity is the killer to any no-free-will argument. Curiosity is what drives a person to think outside the box. If thought and action derive from simple stimuli, then where does curiosity come from? A stimuli? All of the stimuli? Well, you can come up with an almost infinite amount(and actually you can come up with an infinite amount) for a few things. But stimuli isn't infinite as it is part of the physical world, and therefore you can't have a finite amount of stimuli to make an infinite amount of possibilities. What goes in must come out in equal proportions. Like a math formula.
I think your problem with free will is its apparent conflict with predestination, prophecy, omniscience, etc. If there was no conflict, if you could, potentially, have both free will and predestination, would you believe in free will?If we had free will, then we should be able to break away from the future God's sees. But if God knows what we are going to do, and if His actions resulted in that action, then free will by logic cannot exist.
Ok, thats fine.God does not, cannot, come to know. He does not need a thing to exist, to know it completely. God has no sequence of ideas. God knows His creation, quite apart from its existence (in temporal terms, before its existence).
Let me ask you this, do you believe free will is free of all influence?A free-will is no more and no less than a will free to act according to its nature.
It is not a will free from being known.
I think your problem with free will is its apparent conflict with predestination, prophecy, omniscience, etc. If there was no conflict, if you could, potentially, have both free will and predestination, would you believe in free will?
Ok, thats fine.
Let me ask you this, do you believe free will is free of all influence?
Easily done, given sufficient proportions. Besides, you didn't answer my questionThe two cannot go together. Trying to fit free will into predestined history is like trying to fit a round piece into a square hole.
I do.Why? Do you think they can be compatible?
Do you think free will exists?
If yes, how does it exist if cause and effect determines everything?
If you do not think cause and effect determines everything, then give an example.
I guess this means that you believe free will is not free of all influence, but that you still believe free will exists.WE HAVE A FREE-WILL
We are free to do anything we can do, but we are not free to do anything.
There is much more that we cannot do than can do.
For example: We cannot know in the begining everything we know in the end.
God also has a free-will. He is free to do anything that can be done.
There is much more that cannot be done than can be done.
For example: God cannot come to know anything.
A free-will is a will free to act according to its nature,
IT IS NOT A WILL FREE FROM BEING KNOWN.
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