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Maynard Keenan said:In the animal kingdom the goal is get your sperm into a female. Male animals will do this in whatever way possible. If a female is unwilling she'll either get away, fight it off, or get "raped." It has nothing to do with evolution or creation.
Parsimonious said:There is some fascinating evidence that shows that women will extra-pair copulate during the peak fertile phase of their cycle to try and get a "good genes" guy to be the father of the baby, and then get a good investor, but poor quality male, to raise the child. So investment in offspring is a antagonistic relationship and is a problem no matter who the father is.
JohnR7 said:I remember seeing that. The men that a women will choose to father their child maybe different from the men she will choose to help her raise that child. Men in general often are willing to raise another mans child. Women in general are not willing to raise another women's child under those same conditions. I remember when I was a single parent there were women who started to show interest in me but when they found out I was a single parent they lost interest. They did not want anything to do with that. Unless they had lots of kids of their own and then they saw it as sort of a trade off. That is why so often you end up with yours, mine and ours when it comes to kids.
Yeah, direct quote from Randy Thornhill in an interview a couple years after the paper was published. From Straw men and fairy tales: Evaluating reactions to A Natural History of Rape. It might be a pet idea of his (all scientists have ideas on how things work) but even he has to concede that he didnt find evidence supporting rape-adaptation.Parsimonious said:The reference to the by-product quote I am not sure about. Is that a direct quote? I can assure you that Thornill most adamantly does NOT believe rape is simply a by-product but exhibits all the signs of an adaptation.
Well there is some reason to think so. In different species psychological selection has had physical selection directly tied in with it or tied in as a byproduct. Hyenas are an example of the byproduct scenario. The aggressive behavior is accompanied by pseudo-penises and other testosterone associated products. There are just several mechanical mechanisms in other organisms that ensure efficient delivery of the goods. Im just saying that I expect to see some mechanism of the same persuasion.Parsimonious said:Lets first address your response to there being physical adaptation. There is absolutely no reason to think that having a psychological or behavioral adaptation has to correspond to having a physical adaptation. Why does this have to be the case?
I agree with the definition.Parsimonious said:In addition I think it would be very helpful if you say how you would define an adaptation. How you would look to tell the difference between by-products, spandrels, exaptations, ect. The approach that Evolutionary Psychology uses, as well as a great deal of evolutionary biology is the approach of functional design. Adaptations are the result of direct selection and the only evolutionary mechanism that can develop function design is direct selection. Do you agree with this approach or not? I think that might be helpful to get straight.
I didnt pick this out from the papers.Parsimonious said:The functional design is specifically related to the consequences of rape. This design and specificity is strong evidence for adaptation against rape. If women have specific adaptations against rape it means that rape was consistent enough to be a cause of selection.
Havent seen evidence for it.Parsimonious said:This is only half the evidence to work with. There is the direct evidence of the analysis of men.
Hard to say. I think that general responses are prevalent, but I cant rule out the context specific ones either. I just havent seen a context specific reaction paper.Parsimonious said:And perhaps a more holistic question to ask is do you believe humans have context specific psychological and behavioral adaptations at all?
The contingent circumstances would have to happen very frequently for this to occur. Usually only one method of procreation is ever selected for in a population (the most advantageous)Parsimonious said:Under these conditions rape as a CONTIGENT plan could evolve.
There is a psychological factor involved in rape no present in other organisms, lets try and stick to humans as much as we can.Yes, actually, personally only in the orangutan and scorpion fly, but there are many documented cases of rape in animals. But the OP specifically asked us not to go to far down this route. But cross-species comparisons of rape and rape behavior can be very interesting and informative when analyzing human rape behavior.
Maynard Keenan said:In the animal kingdom the goal is get your sperm into a female. Male animals will do this in whatever way possible. If a female is unwilling she'll either get away, fight it off, or get "raped." It has nothing to do with evolution or creation.
Well it actually does matter, it may or may not be a method of selection. Hopefully well get some references from research done on the topic and find out.
On a final note, going along with my idea that I would expect to see a physical change, selection on just males would have to be quite prominent to not effect female selection. This would also further support my idea that selecting for male adaptations would include some physical traits. But then again I might be wrong, I just havent seen the support for this view.Parsimonious said:Rape is disadvantageous to women but that says NOTHING about its advantage to men.
Parsimonious said:I guess there is not a problem, but I dont see your argument. If most rapes are of a "reproductive" variety where is the problem for adaptation.
Parsimonious said:And if traits that benefit the individual with in a given context at the expense of the group can evolve then the relative violence or dominance of a trait as it effects "society" doesnt matter in the equation.
Oonna said:Most Perps cant even "finish the job" and its all about power and control, not making babies...
JohnR7 said:I would rather imagine that if a rapest was not able to actually penetrate the female, that would be of little consolation to the female he was trying to rape.
Sometimes it maybe considered a very fine line between what could be considered rape. I remember a guy telling me once that if a women got into bed with him and then did not want to have sex, he would rape her because he did not think that the court system would prosecute him in that situation.
JohnR7 said:Maybe now a days. He told me this more then 30 years ago and things were a little bit different back then from what they are now.
JimmyKoKoPop said:This person who told you this has a point. Rape in that situation is very hard to prove, and it is quite possible he'd get away if brought to trial.
JohnR7 said:He never went to jail,
Oonna said:Just so you know, Rape is a act of violence just like any other act of violence. The "tool" is just the penis. Most Perps cant even "finish the job" and its all about power and control, not making babies...
Here are the myths and Realitys of rape
<www calcasa org/34.0>
And for you men that want to keep your daughters and mothers safe
<www mystrength org>
Matthew410 said:Whether or not "evolution" condones rape, God does not! Thanks for the great website Oonna. Maybe educating men like this can change the course of "evolution."
Oonna said:Just so you know, Rape is a act of violence just like any other act of violence. The "tool" is just the penis. Most Perps cant even "finish the job" and its all about power and control, not making babies...
madarab said:Sexual assault of any kind is an issue that almost everyone is going to feel strong negative emotions about. Even though it might be scientifically and socially advantageous to understand the phenomenon so that we can reduce or even eliminate it, it would be very hard to find either researchers or reviewers who could do so without bias or prejudice about the subject. In a large public forum such as this one, there will almost invariably be people who either were victims of sexual assault or close to people who were, making reasoned discussion even more difficult. I'm not even sure that it is wise to raise the subject here.
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