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Discussion and Debate
Discussion and Debate
Physical & Life Sciences
Does determinism really negate free will?
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<blockquote data-quote="Kylie" data-source="post: 76693668" data-attributes="member: 343110"><p>Allow me to provide an analogy.</p><p></p><p>It's like saying that you can't see how some process can be ordered, but what makes up those processes could not also be deterministic.</p><p></p><p>However, I can give an example of a process which delivers a highly ordered result, yet part of the process is very random.</p><p></p><p>Ever notice how the bottom of the chip (crisps in some parts of the world) packet, or cereal box, or popcorn tub, it ALWAYS has the little scraggly bits? And all the big pieces are near the top? That's because of random movement.</p><p></p><p>As the chip packet (or cereal box, etc) moves, the pieces inside jostle about, and gaps open up between them. Of course, smaller gaps are more likely to open up, since all large gaps must start out as small gaps, but not all small gaps will form larger gaps. Thus, smaller pieces are more likely to fall through the gaps, and we'll end up seeing the pieces sorted by size, with larger pieces on top and smaller pieces at the bottom.</p><p></p><p>This is a highly ordered result, even though a very important part of the process was random.</p><p></p><p>Likewise, it's entirely possible that on the scale of subatomic particles, there are forces which have a large influence, yet these forces are not strong enough to move things on the macroscopic level.</p><p></p><p>A single atom, after all, can be moved by Brownian motion, yet Brownian motion has no effect on my position.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Kylie, post: 76693668, member: 343110"] Allow me to provide an analogy. It's like saying that you can't see how some process can be ordered, but what makes up those processes could not also be deterministic. However, I can give an example of a process which delivers a highly ordered result, yet part of the process is very random. Ever notice how the bottom of the chip (crisps in some parts of the world) packet, or cereal box, or popcorn tub, it ALWAYS has the little scraggly bits? And all the big pieces are near the top? That's because of random movement. As the chip packet (or cereal box, etc) moves, the pieces inside jostle about, and gaps open up between them. Of course, smaller gaps are more likely to open up, since all large gaps must start out as small gaps, but not all small gaps will form larger gaps. Thus, smaller pieces are more likely to fall through the gaps, and we'll end up seeing the pieces sorted by size, with larger pieces on top and smaller pieces at the bottom. This is a highly ordered result, even though a very important part of the process was random. Likewise, it's entirely possible that on the scale of subatomic particles, there are forces which have a large influence, yet these forces are not strong enough to move things on the macroscopic level. A single atom, after all, can be moved by Brownian motion, yet Brownian motion has no effect on my position. [/QUOTE]
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Does determinism really negate free will?
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