Does "catholic" really mean universal?

[Vanellus]

Catholic means universal but do Roman Catholics really believe that the RCC is universal i.e. that their's is the one true church and that there are no other valid churches or denominations outside the RCC? If catholics agree that one can be a Christian by being baptised into a church other than the RCC why cling onto the "catholic" label - or does it mean something different to catholics?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Catholic means universal but do Roman Catholics really believe that the RCC is universal i.e. that their's is the one true church and that there are no other valid churches or denominations outside the RCC? If catholics agree that one can be a Christian by being baptised into a church other than the RCC why cling onto the "catholic" label - or does it mean something different to catholics?

Yes, that is correct. Until the end of the twentieth century the Catholic Church did not view Protestants as being members of their denomination. With the rise of the ecumenical movement, however, things changed, at least outwardly, so that the Catholic Church now believes that everyone who has received trinitarian baptism can be saved. The emphasis is on can, and not will. They do not teach that anyone can know that they will be saved. There is no thing such as assurance of salvation in the Catholic Church.

For a non-Catholic to be saved, he must confess that the Catholic Church is the one and only Church of God on earth and submit himself to its teachings and sacraments. One might be saved if he is "invincibly ignorant" which generally means that he would have joined the Catholic Church had he but known of it in truth.

That puts the Catholic theologians in the peculiar position of proferring salvation to people who are ignorant of their denomination and denying salvation to Christians who ascribe to the doctrines of orthodox Christians but knowingly reject the peculiar doctrines of Catholicism.

 

[concretecamper]

Invincible Ignorance is a mighty high standard.....so basically the teaching has not changed in the 20th century as you suggest. The words are more ecumenical but the meaning of No Salvation Outside the Church is the same as pronounced at Trent.

 

[prodromos]

"Catholic" is from Greek roots "kata" & "holos", meaning "according to the whole". In the Orthodox Church, this is understood in accordance with the Trinity. As the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God, likewise each community of faithful surrounding their bishop is the catholic church, not just part of the Church, but wholly the Church just as each person in the Holy Trinity is wholly God.
This is the meaning we Orthodox ascribe to the word "catholic" when we recite the Nicene Creed.

 

[prodromos]

There is no thing such as assurance of salvation in the Catholic Church.

I don't think that is an accurate appraisal of Catholic belief. If one has faith which continues to produce good works, then such a Catholic would have assurance of salvation. Those who have faith which does not produce good works are no different from the demons, however that isn't something exclusive to Catholics but applies to all Christians.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I don't think that is an accurate appraisal of Catholic belief. If one has faith which continues to produce good works, then such a Catholic would have assurance of salvation. Those who have faith which does not produce good works are no different from the demons, however that isn't something exclusive to Catholics but applies to all Christians.

Far be it from me to imply that Catholics do not have a hope of salvation, as do all Christians. However, hope is not assurance. For a Catholic there is the very real possibility that, despite having lived a completely faithful life, they can, at the end, commit a mortal sin such as missing weekly mass, and not confess it to a priest in order to receive penance and forgiveness, and thus be cast into hell forever. Thus, the Catholic has no assurance that he will be saved.

 

[prodromos]

Far be it from me to imply that Catholics do not have a hope of salvation, as do all Christians. However, hope is not assurance. For a Catholic there is the very real possibility that, despite having lived a completely faithful life, they can, at the end, commit a mortal sin such as missing weekly mass, and not confess it to a priest in order to receive penance and forgiveness, and thus be cast into hell forever. Thus, the Catholic has no assurance that he will be saved.

How many faithful Christians have you seen suddenly turn their back on God near the end of their lives after decades of faithful service to God?
They do have assurance.

 

[bbbbbbb]

How many faithful Christians have you seen suddenly turn their back on God near the end of their lives after decades of faithful service to God?
They do have assurance.

I think we might be talking past each other. Here is an interesting position paper by a Catholic source on the issue - http://www.catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation

 

[concretecamper]

Far be it from me to imply that Catholics do not have a hope of salvation, as do all Christians. However, hope is not assurance. For a Catholic there is the very real possibility that, despite having lived a completely faithful life, they can, at the end, commit a mortal sin such as missing weekly mass, and not confess it to a priest in order to receive penance and forgiveness, and thus be cast into hell forever. Thus, the Catholic has no assurance that he will be saved.

I'm scratching my head on why a faithful Catholic would intentionally miss Mass on Sunday.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I'm scratching my head on why a faithful Catholic would intentionally miss Mass on Sunday.

As am I, but, as we all know, tens of millions of Catholics in European Catholic countries did not attend mass yesterday - or the week before, or the week before that, or . . .

 

[concretecamper]

As am I, but, as we all know, tens of millions of Catholics in European Catholic countries did not attend mass yesterday - or the week before, or the week before that, or . . .

Then "faithful" should not be in your description when describing these Catholics

 

[bbbbbbb]

Then "faithful" should not be in your description when describing these Catholics

Perhaps, but then I am not their judge, am I?

 

[concretecamper]

Perhaps, but then I am not their judge, am I?

Of course you are not their judge. What that has to do with your mistake of calling a Catholic who deliberately does not attend Sunday Mass "faithful" escapes me.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Of course you are not their judge. What that has to do with your mistake of calling a Catholic who deliberately does not attend Sunday Mass "faithful" escapes me.

The point being made was that Catholics have hope for salvation, but not assurance. I daresay that you are not completely assured of your own salvation.

 

[concretecamper]

The point being made was that Catholics have hope for salvation, but not assurance. I daresay that you are not completely assured of your own salvation.

I wonder why you felt it necessary to move off from the point? Anyway.....

Let's put it this way.....there is no better assurance than being a faithful Catholic. Where the hope comes in is that I do not know the future. I hope that I respond to His grace and serve Him to the best of my ability. I have fallen before...I HOPE I do not fall again.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I wonder why you felt it necessary to move off from the point? Anyway.....

Let's put it this way.....there is no better assurance than being a faithful Catholic. Where the hope comes in is that I do not know the future. I hope that I respond to His grace and serve Him to the best of my ability. I have fallen before...I HOPE I do not fall again.

Thank you for making my point. I sometimes think I have more assurance of my Catholic friends' salvation than they do themselves.

 

[concretecamper]

Sounds like your Catholic friends are working out their salvation with fear and trembling...that's great!

 

[FireHeart]

I have seen Christians and Catholics go at each other for a long time, the Catholics and the Christians each have different views and beliefs different doctrines and ways of doing things but we both have one thing in common- We love the Lord. The Mark of a true follower of God is love, if a persons heart is full of love then they begin see through God's eyes they begin to love as he loves not as how only the fleshly heart can they begin to have their heart replaced by his own obtaining his desires obtaining his will taking on his very spirit and divine nature.

The Catholics and the Christians have been going at each other because of their differences, but it's their differences that can make the kingdom of God great. The human body had different parts each part is different and serves a different purpose yet it is vital to make the body work properly.

 

[concretecamper]

The Catholics vs. the Christians? Don't you view Catholics as Christians? Or did you mean Catholics vs. Protestants?

 

[FireHeart]

The Catholics vs. the Christians? Don't you view Catholics as Christians? Or did you mean Catholics vs. Protestants?

I don't know if Catholics are Christians or not tbh. I think they are a type of Christians but I also don't think we fit into the same catagory. But like I said the human body has different part that are different with different functions but are needed for the body to function correctly.