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Does Altruism Exist?

Received

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Honestly now?

Let us not mix up the words Egoism with Egotism, nor consider Altruism to be simply an act of helping your neighbor. Egoism is the belief that everything we do has it's drive under our own self-interest. Altruism, on the other hand, claims that human beings are, and can act, unselfishly.

But is it not true that even our moments of unselfishness are truly moments of self interest? Do we not help the lost, and assist the helpless not simply for their own sake, but for our sake as well, as we are human beings that relate to their position, and through compassion and love fulfill that much more goodness in ourselves?

And consider God; if it is the work of a saint, surely we would consider him selfless! But he is doing such through accountability to God, which would make the situation self-centered, as he is doing such things - though they may be only possible through the grace given to him - for the sole purpose of his relationship with Him, which is clearly a claim to selfishness.

The same can be said with a person doing acts for his wife, friend, neighbor, etc.

Consider the classic Abraham Lincoln story:

"Mr. Lincoln once remarked to a fellow-passenger on an old-time mud-coach that all men were prompted by selfishness in doing good. His fellow-passenger was antagonizing this position when they were passing over a corduroy bridge that spanned a slough. As they crossed this bridge they espied an old razorbacked sow on the bank making a terrible noise because her pigs had go into the slough and were in danger of drowning. As the old coach began to climb the hill, Mr. Lincoln called out, "Driver, can't you stop just a moment?" Then Mr. Lincoln jumped out, ran back, and lifted the little pigs out of the mud and water and placed them on the bank. When he returned, his companion remarked: "Now, Abe, where does selfishness come in on this little episode?" "Why, bless your soul, Ed, that was the very essence of selfishness. I should have had no peace of mind all day had I gone on and left that suffering old sow worrying over those pigs. I did it to get peace of mind, don't you see?"

Or consider the words of Pascal:

"All men seek happiness. This is without exception. Whatever different means they employ, they all tend to this end. The cause of some going to war, and of others avoiding it, is the same desire in both, attended with different views. The will never takes the least step but to this object. This is the motive of every action of every man, even of those who hang themselves."

It seems, then, not to be a question of whether a person is being selfish (this being in the sense of what we would consider not sharing your toys, or becoming arrogantly egocentric) or not, but whether this selfishness is a simple revelation of his immorality. A person who doesn't look out for others, and who doesn't care to give his pocket change to a family on the street is very well a person that is immoral, or base, while the person who gives his life for a stranger is of saint-like existence, even though both men are expressing a same sense of selfishness: for one being a twisted financial survival, and the other accountability and love for his God and fellow man. 

Thoughts?
 

Quath

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I agree with this. It is impossible for us to do something that is not selfish. (Unless you have multiple personalities.) You have a decision making process that is based on making you as happy as possible. Even if you derive happiness from hurting yourself.

So I think that a better measure of altruism is how much happiness do you get from peace of mind decisions versus happiness from physically satisfying decisions.

Scott (Quath)
 
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This is really nothing more than an exercise in semantics disguised as a philosophical point.

By broadening the definition of "selfishness" to include those acts motivated by such nebulous things as "peace of mind", you are rendering the concept meaningless.

If I risk my life to save my child, is that selfless? Well, not if you want to argue that I am saving my child to prevent the grief I would feel with her loss.

Were the firefighters who died on 9/11 "selfless"? Well, according to this definition, they were probably acting out of a sense of duty which gave them peace of mind.

I can define selflessness and altruism *into* existence just as quickly as you try to define them out of existence. Why? The cold, hard reality is that it *is* meaningful to characterize actions as "selfish" or "selfless". Otherwise, we have to live in a world where we accept that Ken Lay is morally equal to Mother Theresa.

Someone who helps others without consideration for their own benefit is selfless. Someone who benefits themself without consideration of others is selfish.

The real question to ponder is, "why do some people forego physical gratification for the sake of peace of mind, but others do not?"
 
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Received

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Perhaps because they have realised that sensualism is nothing in comparison with spiritual edification.

People sarifice their lives because it is the 'heroic thing to do'. But even heroism has it's form of gratification, well well one of the highest forms.

I suppose that selflessness has to do more along the lines of relationship based sacrifice, rather than solely one's own self. Mother Theresa and Saint Augustine did it all for God - but through doing such they did it for themselves as well, as they are in relationship with Him. How does this differ from the downright egocentric person? The sacrifice of sensualism for the things of above, or out of love for specific persons.
 
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cenimo

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Let's say it depends on one's real motivation.
Take the case of smeone who does something or let's say donates to charity and then says they do so because it makes them feel good. True altruist? No.

I'd say altruists exist (such as the example given of the firefighters in NYC on 9-11) but they are rare.

Put it this way, anyone who approaches you:

A salesman wants some of your money

Friends, family, co-workers want your time
(heloing them move, for example)

Even a preacher- wants your attendance in his church
(the door knockers)
 
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pete5

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By the extreme definition you gave, Altrueism does NOT exist.

Every action comes from desire (by the very nature of action... there might be conflicting desires, you might change your mind later, but at the time you did what you wanted to do)

therefore, EVERYTHING we do we do to fulfill OUR desire.

this is not selfish, it is how we as humans work.

Selfish is to be only motivated by your own needs, and not consider the needs of others.

Selfless is to be motivated only by the needs of others, and not your own.

Neither of these is a good idea, unless you know Jesus realy well... than selfless is ok, because God is watching your back.
 
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Mother Vashti

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I do things I would not, if I were not Christian. In the good acts I completed before I was Christian, these arguments suited me. Naturally speaking, I did things because it "made me feel good about myself" as the phrase goes. Supernaturally, in every good work, glory is produced, and I would take that glory for myself.

Now I am compelled to do things because I know the furthering of the Kingdom of God takes precedence over my personal feelings. For example, I wind up doing nice things for people I dislike, because the Lord commanded me to do so.

I don't feel good at all for doing these things.

It is at that point that I know the emission of glory, from that act, went straight to God. I did not collect it for myself. That, as a final truth, refreshes me with comfort.
 
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pete5

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Now I am compelled to do things because I know the furthering of the Kingdom of God takes precedence over my personal feelings. For example, I wind up doing nice things for people I dislike, because the Lord commanded me to do so.

Could you have said:

"Because God has changed me to desire the furthering of His kingdom more than the things I desire for myself, I end up doing things which before i would not have wanted to do"

What I'm saying, is that you still follow your desires, but now you desire to be more like God (because He gave you a love for Him when you became a christian), so you pray, read the bible, and obey Him not out of obligation, but out of desire?

I don't think the christian life is about doing what you don't what to do, but about loving God, and learning to want to do what he asks.

Am I on the right track?
 
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Received

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I think egoism is unescapable, as every act committed is done out of selfishness, or out of a form of compassion, and compassion is certainly no one-way deal - it is a form of love, and thus a mutual benefit, as Shakespeare said, it 'blesseth him that gives and him that receives.'

Given this, to say that non-Christians cannot be broad egoists (that is, anything other than selfish) is basically to claim that they have no feeling of compassion within their character whatsoever, which is moot.

Also a reason to reject strong calvinism as well.

blessings,

John
 
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pete5

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Everyone serves their emotions and thoughts.

a christian has been regenerated by God, to conform their thoughts and desires to His, and as such though their actions still have the same basic motivation, serve God.

A non-christian cannot serve God, and only God is truely good (they can desire to be charitable, but cannot give true charity... how can anyone but God know what a person TRUELY needs)

A non-christian can do good in the worlds eyes, but not Gods.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.
 
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Salsa_1960

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This thread brings to mind the words of the Apostle Paul in Philippians 2:1-11. These are verses that are good to reread occasionally as I believe we are by nature selfish beings. (Speaking for myself, I know this to be true).
1If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death--
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.


 
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tcampen

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Altruism for all people is the same, whether Christian or not. No Christian does "God's will" but hates doing it. If the non-Christian "version" of altruism is ultimately based on making oneself feel good about him/herself, then there is no reason the same isn't true for the person who performs altruistic deeds in the name of any supernatural entity(s). Any effort to separate the two as being inherently different, with one being more authentic than the other, can just as reasonably be viewed as yet another attempt to gain personal superiority over others. This personal feeling of being better than others as the source of the altruism, therefore, is no different than the accusations made of all those who do not subscribe to that particular religious belief. It really cuts both ways, so lets be careful.
 
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revolutio

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I am still pondering over whether or not there are such things as selfless acts.

I just read Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead so now I have a very different view of what it is we call altruism. Though it didn't solve my problem over whether or not it actually exists. I think there is a possibility that sheer logic and rationalizing could overcome all selfish emotions, but I don't know what really lies at the source of logic.

I do believe in non-selfish acts, however only in the regards that we do somethings out of habit and without any motivation but routine.
 
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TheOriginalWhitehorse

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Well, maybe it would be a good idea to determine whether or not the presence of gratification makes something selfish. Here's what I mean:

There certainly are selfless acts. These are the things you desperately do not want to do, because you do not like the person you are called to do them for. But you do them anyway, even though it is inconvenient, or distasteful.

But there is the part of the will that also seeks to please God. It wants to. This is the redeemed nature, defying the sinful nature. But is that not still a desire to please God? And, does not the fulfillment of God's will please the redemed nature? Of course it does.

But I don't think that could be considered selfish, because the act was distasteful and inconvenient.
 
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foolsparade

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revolutio said:
I am still pondering over whether or not there are such things as selfless acts.

I just read Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead so now I have a very different view of what it is we call altruism. Though it didn't solve my problem over whether or not it actually exists. I think there is a possibility that sheer logic and rationalizing could overcome all selfish emotions, but I don't know what really lies at the source of logic.

I do believe in non-selfish acts, however only in the regards that we do somethings out of habit and without any motivation but routine.

yes but does the act of an assembly line worker who is doing a repetative motion to accomplish a task, count as a truly alturistic deed? In regards to the other stuff you wrote, I think the same things. Does sheer logic and rationalization become the sole motivating factor behind an independant decision to engage in an "action"?? I am not convinced it does..Then I would wonder if it's not better that WE DO have a desire to please ourselves. Is that called an ego? Is there a better way to spread an attribute that is in harmony with the progression of life then to have a personal need and desire to "act" a certain way? maybe thats where love comes from..
 
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Maybe it's an important distinction to make between an altruistic act the habit of being altruistic. It's like any other virtue (honesty, courage, forgiveness, etc): it's something we consciously have to develop, like a muscle. At first it's difficult, but over time, we are able to do these things out of habit.

Is the altruistic act, the single man running into a burning building, truly altruistic? Maybe. I think it would be more appropriate to apply the term to someone who does selfless acts repeatedly and comfortably.
 
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foolsparade

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Arnold_Philips said:
Is the altruistic act, the single man running into a burning building, truly altruistic? Maybe. I think it would be more appropriate to apply the term to someone who does selfless acts repeatedly and comfortably.

Maybe.. I am not convinced that the man running to save someone is truly altruistic.. I do understand how this could be confused with altruistic. Again I would suggest that an altruistic action is ony an action that is known ahead of time and is repeated over and over.
 
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Received said:
Honestly now?

Let us not mix up the words Egoism with Egotism, nor consider Altruism to be simply an act of helping your neighbor. Egoism is the belief that everything we do has it's drive under our own self-interest. Altruism, on the other hand, claims that human beings are, and can act, unselfishly.

But is it not true that even our moments of unselfishness are truly moments of self interest? Do we not help the lost, and assist the helpless not simply for their own sake, but for our sake as well, as we are human beings that relate to their position, and through compassion and love fulfill that much more goodness in ourselves?

And consider God; if it is the work of a saint, surely we would consider him selfless! But he is doing such through accountability to God, which would make the situation self-centered, as he is doing such things - though they may be only possible through the grace given to him - for the sole purpose of his relationship with Him, which is clearly a claim to selfishness.

The same can be said with a person doing acts for his wife, friend, neighbor, etc.

Consider the classic Abraham Lincoln story:

"Mr. Lincoln once remarked to a fellow-passenger on an old-time mud-coach that all men were prompted by selfishness in doing good. His fellow-passenger was antagonizing this position when they were passing over a corduroy bridge that spanned a slough. As they crossed this bridge they espied an old razorbacked sow on the bank making a terrible noise because her pigs had go into the slough and were in danger of drowning. As the old coach began to climb the hill, Mr. Lincoln called out, "Driver, can't you stop just a moment?" Then Mr. Lincoln jumped out, ran back, and lifted the little pigs out of the mud and water and placed them on the bank. When he returned, his companion remarked: "Now, Abe, where does selfishness come in on this little episode?" "Why, bless your soul, Ed, that was the very essence of selfishness. I should have had no peace of mind all day had I gone on and left that suffering old sow worrying over those pigs. I did it to get peace of mind, don't you see?"

Or consider the words of Pascal:

"All men seek happiness. This is without exception. Whatever different means they employ, they all tend to this end. The cause of some going to war, and of others avoiding it, is the same desire in both, attended with different views. The will never takes the least step but to this object. This is the motive of every action of every man, even of those who hang themselves."

It seems, then, not to be a question of whether a person is being selfish (this being in the sense of what we would consider not sharing your toys, or becoming arrogantly egocentric) or not, but whether this selfishness is a simple revelation of his immorality. A person who doesn't look out for others, and who doesn't care to give his pocket change to a family on the street is very well a person that is immoral, or base, while the person who gives his life for a stranger is of saint-like existence, even though both men are expressing a same sense of selfishness: for one being a twisted financial survival, and the other accountability and love for his God and fellow man. 

Thoughts?
This post made me stop and think. Some good thoughts in this question, unlike a number of resposes and questions I've read so far in this forum. Which I must say, some are complete nonsense. I don't mean it as a direct attack or offense but I hope individuals would actually stop and think about what there writing.
 
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