Does adding items to a doctrine increase points of failure?

2PhiloVoid · Jun 14, 2018

cloudyday2 said:
Artemis was the patron of Ephesus and some have hypothesized that the veneration of the Virgin Mary originated in Ephesus. So that's an interesting idea.

Yep. So, in a certain way, and in keeping in line with the objective of your OP, we might say that these women were, at that time, trying to bring something "additive" into the existing doctrines as Paul (and likely Peter and the other Apostles) taught them. Personally, I'm all for expansive study of culture, philosophy, history, and whatnot, but there are some elements in some cultures, some philosophies, some supposed accounts of the past that are in contention with the underlying structures of the Christian faith, and we all need to be careful of those things when considering them, particularly if we don't want to end up starting our own "cults," apart from the originating persons of the Christian faith.

cloudyday2 · Jun 14, 2018

2PhiloVoid said:
Yep. So, in a certain way, and in keeping in line with the objective of your OP, we might say that these women were, at that time, trying to bring something "additive" into the existing doctrines as Paul (and likely Peter and the other Apostles) taught them. Personally, I'm all for expansive study of culture, philosophy, history, and whatnot, but there are some elements in some cultures, some philosophies, some supposed accounts of the past that are in contention with the underlying structures of the Christian faith, and we all need to be careful of those things when considering them, particularly if we don't want to end up starting our own "cults," apart from the originating persons of the Christian faith.

Another approach is to realize that the Pastoral epistles contain some additions to Christian dogma. I watched a Bart Ehrman lecture on the Pastoral epistles a few weeks ago where he pointed-out various reasons they are believed to be forgeries. One of these reasons was a distinctly different use of the word "faith". The undisputed epistles of Paul use "faith" to mean "confidence", but the Pastoral epistles use "faith" to mean "dogma" - i.e. the object of the confidence rather than the confidence itself.

So including the Pastoral epistles in the NT canon is an addition and alteration to the dogma without them. I just listened to the Pastorals on a DVD of the Bible. Maybe it was the calm background music or my lack of attentiveness, but I didn't notice them being all that terrible. There were some popular quotes in them such as "you can't take it with you", "money is the root of all evil", etc. Of course there is also the misogynistic stuff. Does the inclusion of the Pastorals make Christian dogma more or less plausible? I don't know.

2PhiloVoid · Jun 15, 2018

cloudyday2 said:
Another approach is to realize that the Pastoral epistles contain some additions to Christian dogma. I watched a Bart Ehrman lecture on the Pastoral epistles a few weeks ago where he pointed-out various reasons they are believed to be forgeries. One of these reasons was a distinctly different use of the word "faith". The undisputed epistles of Paul use "faith" to mean "confidence", but the Pastoral epistles use "faith" to mean "dogma" - i.e. the object of the confidence rather than the confidence itself.

So including the Pastoral epistles in the NT canon is an addition and alteration to the dogma without them. I just listened to the Pastorals on a DVD of the Bible. Maybe it was the calm background music or my lack of attentiveness, but I didn't notice them being all that terrible. There were some popular quotes in them such as "you can't take it with you", "money is the root of all evil", etc. Of course there is also the misogynistic stuff. Does the inclusion of the Pastorals make Christian dogma more or less plausible? I don't know.

Yeah, I'm already aware of how the pastoral letters can be viewed. There are arguments on both sides for that issue, and it isn't so clear which way it should go. But I suppose I'll have to break down and shell out the 30 plus bucks for his big Forgeries books sometime in the near future just so I can see his arguments in full on this.

Wouldn't it be cool to find out that not only are they not forgeries, but Kroeger and Kroeger's explanation ends up blowing the lid off of the misinterpretation regarding women that so many Christian men have used over the centuries to try to put women "in their place." I would just love to see the reaction in the church at large ...

cloudyday2 · Jun 15, 2018

2PhiloVoid said:
Yeah, I'm already aware of how the pastoral letters can be viewed. There are arguments on both sides for that issue, and it isn't so clear which way it should go. But I suppose I'll have to break down and shell out the 30 plus bucks for his big Forgeries books sometime in the near future just so I can see his arguments in full on this.

Wouldn't it be cool to find out that not only are they not forgeries, but Kroeger and Kroeger's explanation ends up blowing the lid off of the misinterpretation regarding women that so many Christian men have used over the centuries to try to put women "in their place." I would just love to see the reaction in the church at large ...

I guess there are the mummy masks that were made from worn-out pieces of papyrus. If some foundation would try to buy them and study them, it might reveal something.

Does adding items to a doctrine increase points of failure?

2PhiloVoid

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