Does 1 Peter 2:8 prove predestination implicitly?

98cwitr · Dec 24, 2010

Simple yes or no will work, and a brief explanation would be nice.

1 Peter 2:8

8 and,

A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.[a]

They stumble because they disobey the messagewhich is also what they were destined for.

Christ is the stone btw....

Shaun_S · Dec 24, 2010

No, we all have a free will.

Something I found that might help

Corner Stone, Stumbling Stone

1Peter 2:6-8 For in Scripture it says:

"See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."Isaiah 28:16

Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

"The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone," Ps 118:22
and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall."Isaiah 8:14a
They stumble because they disobey the message— which is also what they were destined for.

The rejection of Christ by the Jewish leadership - and even today by the majority of Jews - not only does not discredit the claims of the gospel, rather this fact affirms it. For it was prophecied that the builders of Judaism would reject the messiah. "For both houses of Israel he will be a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall. And for the people of Jerusalem he will be a trap and a snare."Isaiah 8:14 "He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not." Isaiah 53:3

And why did they reject him, indeed why do most reject Christ - pride. He humiliates the proud. God has ordained the gospel and orchestrated circumstances such that the proud are destined to stumble. They are destined to disobey the message. But if the proud humble themselves - then such will not be their destiny. Such was the change in Paul's fate. While God predestined the proud, each person makes their own choice of entering such categories.

MagusAlbertus · Dec 24, 2010

I don't know. I don't know about predestination.

Anyone that thinks that they do know the answer is questionable.

We can't know because the bible is not perfectly clear (just look at the verses used to support both sides).

But I'm fairly sure we both have free will an are predestined.

This of course doesn't make any sense... but neither dos God as a human... so I guess I can see how some people, who just can't accept these sorts of things on faith, might be caused to stumble.

Shaun_S · Dec 24, 2010

my views are when the bible talks about predestination, God in his for knowledge knew what we would do with the gospel that does mean that God selected us from the beginning and all other people would be damned to an eternity without God.

The very thought of this would go against everything God is and stands for! God is a righteous, just and fair God.

God has given mankind a free will and so we make our decisions about our eternal placement.

Remember the bible quotes "God wishes that none should perish but all should have eternal life"

Phileoeklogos · Dec 24, 2010

Yes, but only when you put 2:8 into to its context, there is a contrast being shown between believing and nonbeleiving, their is also a reason why one group believes and the other group doesn't, if you start at 1:1 and read down to 2:10 it should be apparent why one group believes and that reason does apply to predestination explicitly.

I'll let you think on it, and if you want to you can tell me the answer you come up with.

98cwitr · Dec 24, 2010

I just read 1 Peter 1-2 and I dont see how the global context has an impact on what I am asking.

"They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for."

God has destined those who would reject Christ to reject Christ, they stumble because they are destined to do so.

Free Will is a perception...a humanistic perception (see proverbs 16:9 & 20:14)

JM · Dec 24, 2010

It's a prophecy coming true like the "son of perdition" being lost on purpose, the reason, to fulfill scripture. John 17:12

1 Peter 2:8 (Young's Literal Translation)
8and a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence -- who are stumbling at the word, being unbelieving, -- to which also they were set;

John Gill notes, "both to stumble at the word of the Gospel, and at Christ, the sum and substance of it, he being set in the counsel and purpose of God, as for the rising of some, so for the stumbling and falling of others; and also to that disobedience and infidelity which was the cause of their stumbling; for as there are some whom God appointed and foreordained to believe in Christ, on whom he has determined to bestow true faith in him, and who have it as a pure gift, in consequence of such appointment; so there are others, whom he has determined to leave in that disobedience and infidelity into which the fall brought and concluded them, through which they stumble at Christ, and his word, and, in consequence thereof, justly perish; but this is not the case of all; there are some who are the objects of distinguishing grace and favour, and who are described in the following verse."

dies-l · Dec 24, 2010

No, at least not in the individualistic sense of contemporary hyper-Calvinism.

Phileoeklogos · Dec 25, 2010

In the believing group, God has actively worked, they are those who have been "called", they have been "mercied" by God, called out of darkness, and from 1:1 thru 2:10 you can see many things God has actively performed on their behalf, all that is the result of predestination, predestination is to salvation.

The unbeleiveing group stumble and fall, they have not received the call of God, they are still in darkness, God has not been active in them, God has not actively worked disobedience in them, He has determined that the disobedient "stumble", not disobey, they are left in the natural state of men.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
1Co 1:22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
1Co 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
1Co 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

98cwitr · Dec 25, 2010

Eph. 1:11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

Thus, those NOT chosen are predestined NOT to be chosen. By default, if the chosen are predestined to be chosen, the damned are predestined to be damned.

faceofbear · Dec 25, 2010

delete

ToddMyers · Dec 25, 2010

I have studied this for a long time and both sides seem to be able to support what they say about this issue. I really think there are valid points on both side. I myself believe Gods gift of salvation is open to all who will recieve Christ. This issue in my opinion is one that seems to cause alot of divison. I really think I will leave it all up to God and maybe in heaven we will fully understand. I think Calvinism seeks to solve the issue when really since both sides have valid points lets leave it up to God. Sure he knows his elect, sure he knew us in his mothers womb. But Christ died for all and wishes for all to believe and accept what he had done for us. I really do see both sides. God Bless!

HinklesHounds · Dec 25, 2010

98cwitr said:
Eph. 1:11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

Thus, those NOT chosen are predestined NOT to be chosen. By default, if the chosen are predestined to be chosen, the damned are predestined to be damned.

Lets look at this verse Eph. 1 :11 In him (Jesus) we ( everyone,... unless you only think its the ones Paul was writting to, the saints which are at Ephesus that were there, if so guess your not part of the chosen either!) having been predestined (Jesus was predestined) according to the plan (salvation) of him (GOD) who works out everything in conformity (Gods word has pointed to Jesus from the begining. We just cant always see it until we look back in his word and God reveals it unto us and we say Ah Thats what we was talking about) with the purpose of his will (See John 3:16 Mathew 18 11-14 lost sheep)

2 Peter 3:8-9 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any (come unto to me all ye......) should perish, but that all (he didnt say the few I have chosen) should come to repentance.)
Has any one ever had some one give them a plan or directions or maybe even a order or ultimatum and not followed it ? I'd say we all have, give me dirtections to go somewhere and I'll try to find a shorter way (to my wife's dissmay as I get turned around alot (she calls it lost) . And before this gets quoted back to me ,Im not talking about Heaven here, Jesus is the only way to get there. The point Im trying to say is, I believe God has a plan for us all, that he has laid out for us, for our lives. The trouble is everyone doesnt follow his plan for them. Maybe you are/could have been a Preacher or Deacan or Sunday School Teacher or maybe you are the little elderly lady who doesnt say much but prays for me as I preach Gods word and when the spirit moves and her eyes water up with joy in her heart it blesses my soul. Which of these is the most important? They all are. We all make up the body of the church that have accepted Christ and are being led by him. Maybe Im in the big toe and your in the arm it doesnt matter. Who cares what name we have over the door of our churches.

Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

If you want to say that we are Predestined to go to Heaven I have no problem with that. For I believe Christ died on the cross for everyone.
Just because someone doesnt accept the gift of life that Jesus freely gives doesnt mean that Jesus didnt offer it unto them. It doesnt mean that they were predestined to go to Hell. Who was predestined to go to Hell?
The ones it was prepared for...
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Read Matthew ch 25 again, It can be an eye opener.
Just because some one says they are the Elect of God or that they are Righteous does not mean that God shares that same opinion of them.
I like what Paul said ....
I Corinthians 15
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
I think that is the opinion we should feel in our hearts.
For what am I but a sinner saved by grace.
While I do think we are chosen I look at it in a different way post a thread on Gods Chosen People I'd love to talk about that.

God bless you all and Merry Christmas!

98cwitr · Dec 25, 2010

'we' is the subject of the sentence...

JM · Dec 25, 2010

Br. Hinkles,

2 Peter 3:8-9 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that

any (come unto to me all ye......) should perish, but that all (he didnt say the few I have chosen) should come to repentance.)

This epistle is directed to believers, the "beloved" whose faith was being tested, so Peter reminded these believers of the "promise." The covenantal promises found in scripture are not made with unbelievers and unbelievers are never referred to as beloved, these are covenant terms and reserved for God's people. Peter is reassuring God's people that God is longsuffering toward them and they will not perish in their sins.

If you want to say that we are Predestined to go to Heaven I have no problem with that. For I believe Christ died on the cross for everyone.

If Christ died for all and all are not saved, what does Christ's death have to do with salvation, since many are not saved?

jm

faceofbear · Dec 25, 2010

JM said:
[/FONT] If Christ died for all and all are not saved, what does Christ's death have to do with salvation, since many are not saved?

A parachute is designed to save everyone who jumps from a plane, but if someone jumps out of a plane without a parachute, why aren't they saved by the parachute?

I don't think, even if Christ's death is intended for all, that God will necessarily look lightly on them calling God a liar to His face and blaspheming the precious blood of Christ, do you? If Christ bore the sins of all mankind, and mankind rejects the gracious offer of salvation then there remains no sacrifice for their sins, thus their guild remains, but not only their guilt, the blood of Christ.

I'm not stating that is my view, but it could be argued such.

HinklesHounds · Dec 26, 2010

faceofbear said:
A parachute is designed to save everyone who jumps from a plane, but if someone jumps out of a plane without a parachute, why aren't they saved by the parachute?
quote]

Thats easy they didnt have it on ,so they could not pull the cord that opens it. Same for those that are lost, Jesus made a way for them but they did not choose to accept it.

As for beloved you are correct he was talking to believers but what was he saying he was longsuffering for?.... but that all should come to repentance
to put this in everyday terms He was telling them when people say I'm not coming back because alot of time has passed, tell them I still want to let others have oppertunity to accept me. Now if he was talking to just the believers wouldnt they have already repented?

Now We maybe the subject but Jesus being predestined to die on the cross for our sin benifits who? We. Do you not believe that Jesus was predestined to die for our sin? with the foccus being on Predestined.

One last thing, and I dont want this to sound like a joke or that I'm making a mockery of your beleifs for this is not my intent.... How do you wittness and compel the lost people or the ones who have not repented and confessed Jesus to come to Christ and to attend your churches , if you I assume would not know who was predestined for Heaven and who was predestined for Hell? If you told a lost person, unknown to you that they were predestined for Hell , about Jesus and that if they confessed Jesus they could be saved would you be lying? I mean I try to wittness to everyone I know that hasn't accepted Jesus and invite them to church. And what about all the Preachers and teachers of God's word on the radio and the tv. who have been heard by masses of people and have heard seek and ye shall find ,knock and it shall be opened unto you? And what about your children do you not pray for them that they might accept Christ? How could you ask God to work with their hearts because if you son or daughter was predestined for hell you could not change Gods mind ...It was predestined.
I know alot of Good christian people who believe in predestination. Its easy to want to believe that I am predestined to go to heaven ,dont have to worry about any of my actions causeing me to die and go to hell, for some they believe that its even impossible for me to sin if I'm Predestined for Heaven. It would make it so easy to get there . why would the Devil even try and tempt me away because I'm predestined for Heaven. Striveing way... more like highway, Im on the fast track no detours, no breakdowns , no traffic stops just smooth sailing til I meet my savior.... Trouble is when the shoe is on the other foot and you or your loved one are predestined for hell. THATS MORE THAN MY MIND AND HEART CAN BARE. That they would have no hope at all, no matter how much I prayed no matter how much I witnessed, they could not and would not even have a chance to make Heaven their home..I can see the lost wanting to blame God for their own unbelief and punishment and say I was predestined to hell nothing I could do. And while I know God is going to punish the lost. I also know he is fair and just and I will not and would not want to think that he would predestin someone to hell haveing been put on this earth for a oh so short amount of time just so they can be cast Alive in to a burning pit of fire where the worm dieth not and the smoke of their torment would raise up forever and ever ,without ever even being able to have oppertunity to accept Jesus who went to the cross and suffered and shed his blood that could cover their sin if they were only not predestined for hell. Just becuase God knows all does not mean he is the cause. Think of all the evil in the world just because God knows its gonning to happen does not mean he causes it to happen. Just because a person doesnt except Jesus as their savoir does not mean God predestined them to hell, It means they loved darkness rather than light and all those horrible things hell has will be their home no fault of Gods for He sent the best he had that they might have Life everlasting. I could go on and show you countless examples of why I do not accept this but I wont. I hope at the least that this thread causes you to study this out in great dept not just a handfull of verses that we can look up in our Strongs Cord. but in all of Gods word. As I am sure that you do . Maybe I'm reading more into what you are saying than you are I dont know but if so please set the record straight and if not
I have enjoyed studing this thread with you all.

God bless you all

MagusAlbertus · Dec 26, 2010

Just becuase God knows all does not mean he is the cause...Think of all the evil in the world just because God knows its gonning to happen does not mean he causes it to happen.

God is the cause of everything. Are you saying that there is a force that is outside of the creation of God? There is nothing that is that was not created through Christ.

Yet God does not destroy those who go against his will instantly. Being sovern and all powerful God is quite capable of this. This means that even though God doesn't do anything evil God does allow for evil to exist, God did create those things which do evil and God; If God didn't want evil God could have deleted the evil of this earth instantly or simply not have made creatures that would fall to temptation.

There is no doubt that evil exists because it is part of God's plan and it is Gods sovereign will that evil continue on in this world.

Trouble is when the shoe is on the other foot and you or your loved one are predestined for hell. THATS MORE THAN MY MIND AND HEART CAN BARE. That they would have no hope at all,no matter how much I prayed no matter how much I witnessed, they could not and would not even have a chance to make Heaven their home..

On the other hand; no matter how flawed or limited you as a human are, the sovereignty of God as it meats the individual's heart is what has lead them to where they are. You can't blame yourself for someone's spiritual condition, nor can you congratulate yourself.

I think you expose the problem right here: pride.

You don't save anyone, God does it and sometimes you're quite blessed to see it done through you.

Who is you? What of you will be saved when the refiner's fire comes? What of those you feel are bound to hell for not proclaiming the name of Christ? Can an atheist do things that are clearly within the bounds of Christ-Like behavior? Can a Christian do things that are well outside what Christ would have of us?

In the end God will only save perfection, which is Christ. So what of us is in Christ and who is to judge that but God alone?

JM · Dec 26, 2010

A parachute is designed to save everyone who jumps from a plane...

Stop there. No one is able to jump from the plane. The parachute stays tucked away. When the announcement comes over the PA system to put on your parachute no one does, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:7 The warnings of the evangelist are ignored.

Thats easy they didnt have it on ,so they could not pull the cord that opens it.

That is correct.

Same for those that are lost, Jesus made a way for them but they did not choose to accept it.

Salvation is not a Divine AmWay program left for the individual to "work." It's not a system like Roman Catholicism.

As for beloved you are correct he was talking to believers but what was he saying he was longsuffering for?.... but that all should come to repentance to put this in everyday terms He was telling them when people say I'm not coming back because alot of time has passed, tell them I still want to let others have oppertunity to accept me. Now if he was talking to just the believers wouldnt they have already repented?

You are reading into the passage something that isn't there. We find no mention of giving folks opportunity to "get saved."

Now We maybe the subject but Jesus being predestined to die on the cross for our sin benifits who? We. Do you not believe that Jesus was predestined to die for our sin? with the foccus being on Predestined.

The point you are making is lost because you reject the idea of Christ dying specifically for anyone. His death may have been predestined but it was ultimately predestined for no one in particular. God the Father took a chance, a gamble, rolled the dice in sending the Son to die, for Christ died for no one, UNTIL they bought into the Divine AmWay program.

How do you wittness and compel the lost people or the ones who have not repented and confessed Jesus to come to Christ and to attend your churches , if you I assume would not know who was predestined for Heaven and who was predestined for Hell?

Well, for starters, I would never lie to someone. I would never say, "Jesus loves you SO MUCH, why won't you just accept him?" This is just a ploy to work up an emotional response. The truth of the Gospel is: Christ died to save sinners. If you believe then you are saved and you are saved BECAUSE He loves you so much. You see, the problem is in the humanistic rearranging of the proclamation of the word. You start at the end and work toward the beginning. You tell lost, God hating people that God loves them and died for them when scripture clearly tells us that Christ shed His blood for many, not all. All passages that deal with atonement are particular and not general. And the proclamation of the Gospel is declarative, not imperative.

Its easy to want to believe that I am predestined to go to heaven ,dont have to worry about any of my actions causeing me to die and go to hell, for some they believe that its even impossible for me to sin if I'm Predestined for Heaven.

That's a pretty glib and disrespectful statement, especially when talking to a Baptist who accepts mostly Reformed theology as biblical, it's anything but easy. Baptist who believe in predestination are often attacked by other Baptists because they believe "Calvinism" to be true and attacked by Calvinists for not accepting infant baptism. It's anything but easy brother.

Trouble is when the shoe is on the other foot and you or your loved one are predestined for hell. THATS MORE THAN MY MIND AND HEART CAN BARE.

What I can't bare is the random-ness of your humanism. Bad things happen to good people...for no reason at all in your belief system. God takes the broken pieces of humanity and makes the best of it. Hogwash. What I can't bare is the humanistic attitude that accepts the sinners prayer and all the easy believe-isms of the modern age as "proof" someone is a Christian. In everything the believer must be able to say, " And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28 You cannot, it's all random...

jm

faceofbear · Dec 26, 2010

JM said:
Stop there. No one is able to jump from the plane. The parachute stays tucked away. When the announcement comes over the PA system to put on your parachute no one does, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:7 The warnings of the evangelist are ignored.

For fun, even if I were Arminian, I would have no quarrels with this statement, but that by divine prevenient grace man's freedom has been redeemed through the blood of Christ. And that the grace that precedes salvation enables the man to reject or accept the grace of God.... not that man has the ability in and of himself. The difference is, whether this grace can be rejected.

I would also be lead to believe that you undermine grace and place sin, condemnation, and death containing more power than the grace of God. But it could work both ways (an Arminian undermines it by making grace "common" to all men and not a necessary efficacious irresistible grace).

Concerning grace and free will, this is what I teach according to the Scriptures and orthodox consent: Free will is unable to begin or to perfect any true and spiritual good, without grace.... This grace goes before, accompanies, and follows; it excites, assists, operates that we will, and co operates lest we will in vain.

- Jacobus Arminius, The Works of James Arminius, D.D., Formerly Professor of Divinity in the University of Leyden (Auburn, NY: Derby and Miller, 1853), 4:472

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