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Doctrines of the so-called schismatic/heretic Martin Luther

Edward65

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I don’t understand why the Wikipedia article you referred to says that Luther believed in conditional immortality, because if what is meant by this is that Luther didn’t believe in the existence of an eternal hell in which the souls of men continued in a state of perpetual suffering then that is simply untrue. Luther definitely held that the souls of those who weren’t saved weren’t annihilated but continued in a never-ending existence.

Whilst Luther referred to Christ saving Christians from eternal death he didn’t mean that the damned no longer continued to exist, but only that they wouldn’t be with God. Hell is like an eternal death in that the damned are deprived of all the benefits of God’s presence whereas heaven in contrast is life at its fullest in the presence of God.

The concept of soul sleep is completely separate from conditional immortality. Just because a person believes in soul sleep it doesn't follow that he doesn't believe in the immortality of the soul. Apparently Luther did believe in soul sleep but he also believed in the immortality of the soul.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I stated before that I differ with Luther on some things

Such as the things that actually mattered to Luther, such where he stood on Justification, the right distinction between Law and Gospel, the Sacraments, and so forth.

That Protestants would join with Catholics in banning Luther's doctrines - seems to be without "excuse".
The problem of course is that trying to call soul sleep "Luther's doctrine" is weak at best.

But it seems you want to latch onto his ambiguity on the subject, thrust it to the forefront of what Luther stood for and believed, and then try and appeal to Luther the man as an authority for which "Protestants" ought to revere against "dem ol' Catholics over thar".

The problem with that is two-fold, again:

1) Luther's position is ambiguous and undogmatic, so soul sleep is hardly a significant idea in Luther's theology; rather it's an idea he toys and plays with as he wrestles with and through Scripture. Because Luther wants to let Scripture speak plainly, he wants to consider the weight of Scripture here, and of course Scripture itself says incredibly little about life after death or the condition of the soul after death, Scripture itself remains somewhat ambiguous and nebulous on the subject. Thus we see Luther basically refusing to engage in some sort of dogmatic speculation. He speculates, but curbs his speculations with Scripture and refuses a dogmatic position; and therefore seems to argue both sides at various times.

2) Luther isn't the authority, neither for Protestants generally, or Lutherans specifically. So attempting to use Luther as a kind of appeal to authority fails because Luther isn't the authority on matters theological--Scripture is. Scripture alone is the Rule of Faith, that's what Sola Scriptura means; it governs and proclaims the faith, we hear, receive, and then confess the faith as the Scriptures testify it, and proclaim it for our hearing.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Albion

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That's pretty much what I thought, too--that Bob wanted to kill two birds with one stone by attempting to tie the one doctrine to the other, which Luther definitely did not do.
 
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BobRyan

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I too am not sure why they are linking conditional immortality to soul sleep.

But as for Luthers' statement on soul sleep -- another poster on this thread gave the definitive quote.

Those who wish to read "ambiguity" into the following quotes - show us you can do it.

Luther:

[FONT=&quot]"Just as one who falls asleep and reaches morning unexpected when he awakes, without knowing what has happened to him, so shall we suddenly rise on the last day without knowing how we have come into death and through death."[/FONT]


The concept of soul sleep is completely separate from conditional immortality.
I agree with that. I am not sure why they are linking the two.


Just because a person believes in soul sleep it doesn't follow that he doesn't believe in the immortality of the soul. Apparently Luther did believe in soul sleep
I agree with that statement about Luther.


And that the two doctrines are not necessarily the same doctrine.

I am trying to find out more about what Luther believed in the area of conditionalism - some have claimed that Luther and Adam Clarke held to the same view on that subject. But I don't know if it is true or not.

I also don't think Luther held to the soul sleep idea to the very end of his life - he may have changed his mind in later years. The point is that the discussion "was had" by Luther even if not by others.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Tangible

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Hey, instead of supposing and making inferences from nebulous statements, let's discuss two doctrines that Luther made crystal clear statements about and would have fought to the death to defend:

1) Infant Baptism
2) The Real Presence of Jesus' body and blood in the Sacrament of the Altar.

I'm sure that Bob accepts these doctrines wholeheartedly.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Why I am not surprised you bring up the 4th Commandment

http://www.christianforums.com/t6748067/
Is the fourth commandment done away with? (Moved)




.

.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Don't forget God's sovereign election of his chosen sons and daughters to salvation.
 
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Tangible

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3) God's sovereign election of his chosen sons and daughters to salvation
 
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Tertiumquid

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Thanks for posting one my Luther links. I'll gladly defend my research on Luther against any SDA person selectively citing his writings.

As I said in that entry:

"What can be said of Seventh Day Adventist usage of Luther on this point? I suggest they incorrectly present a dogmatic Luther who uses “soul sleep” to refute purgatory and saint worship, which I maintain is not the case. To use Luther correctly, they should at least note Luther’s opinion was speculative and undogmatic. He didn't approach the text of Scripture with the same certainty on “soul sleep” they do. Luther doesn't even have the same theological motivations for the doctrine of “soul sleep” that the Adventists do. What motivates the Adventists on this doctrine? What motivated Luther? These seem to be crucial questions for anyone wishing to use Luther as an authority."

Regards,

James
 
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BobRyan

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As already stated I agree they are two different doctrines.

But here is where wikipedia may be getting their claim about Luther regarding conditionalism -

 
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BobRyan

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I find your logic "illusive" just then given the OP statement that I agree with some of Luther's statements but I do not agree with Luther on all his doctrine "which is the point".

As for your "nebulus" speculation above which of Martin Luther's statements below do you find "nebulus"? This will help us all in decrypting your post.



Frankly I know one or two people that also hold those views and would be much challenged to state their own views in more emphatic and explicit terms.


in Christ,

Bob
 
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