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Just removing all the extra and boiling down to a short/direct answerThe statement is inferred
So if it is reasonable to imagine a never-before-seen millions-of-years process produce a result, are you suggesting it is less reasonable to believe a supernatural act by God could accomplish the same in less time, in light of said supernatural act is written in the account of history describing the origin of the universe and life (with specificity as to length of time involved) and that this account is from the same God who claimed to have performed said act?Yes it is logically deduced that these events would take millions of years. But I would say that it is a reasonable deduction, given that everything we have ever known and observed about physical reality supports it (the theory of plate tectonics).
And if these collective events that have come to pass, depict an extraordinary age of earth, then it is what is. And we should take the observations of ice ages and angular unconformities and sea level changes and varves and biogeographic distributions, and continental drift etc. And it should absolutely take precedence over a second or third hand subjective interpretation of written word. Hands down.
The truth of it though is that it is all subjective interpretations. Without a date stamp and eyewitness account on any of those geological aspects, we are left with best guesses of how, when and why they came to be the way they are. I say that as someone who accepts from both scripture and the physical evidences, that there have/has been previous creation(s) prior to the one we are living in.
I ran across this interesting article that points out what I am trying to say:
Excerpt: Long before the discovery of the scablands, geologists dismissed the role of catastrophic floods in interpreting European geology. By the end of the 19th century such ideas not only were out of fashion but were geological heresy. When J Harlen Bretz uncovered evidence of giant floods in eastern Washington in the 1920s, it took most of the 20th century for other geologists to believe him. Geologists had so thoroughly vilified the concept of great floods that they could not believe it when somebody actually found evidence of one.
Biblical-Type Floods Are Real, and They're Absolutely Enormous
The article isn't verifying a global flood or dating it but points out that the subjective opinions of a 100 years of geologists wouldn't even allow them to consider any clear evidence of large flood waters. Science may be self correcting but considering that it took them almost a century to do so, I for one wouldn't put too much of an emphasis on what they write and would certainly not discount the historical aspects of the bible because current theories of the earth sciences haven't as yet realized the truth of it.
So if the question is what God did do, are you saying it is more reasonable to base what God did by applying a set of presuppositional assumptions to arrive at an inferred conclusion (as opposed to what He directly claimed to have done within His word)?God can hypothetically do anything.
But of course the question isn't about what God can do, it's a question of what God did do.
We've already established that millions-of-years processes were not physically observed. Should, for example, no one believe Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (after Lazarus being dead for 4 days) because all observation of their own two eyes contradicts such an idea?"in light of said supernatural act is written in the account of history"
No interpretation of any written account of anything, should ever take precedence over what we physically observe with our own two eyes (specifically in scenarios where the two conflict).
This may help contribute in supporting why Islam is not a true faith in the one true God, but none of this is referenced in God's word so I have a hard time following where a set of false beliefs in a false religion somehow demonstrates that God's word is also false.And I'll give a couple examples and reasons why:
First, I'll start with Muslims. They believe that their prophet rode a flying donkey across the middle east. Some Hindus believe that earth hatched from a lotus flower.
Why? Not because of anything they've seen, but rather because they've prioritized what they've interpreted in their respective scriptures, in place of what they've observed with their own two eyes (donkeys don't have wings, lotus flowers do not hatch planets).
Are you now adding that those who believe in the scriptural account of creation are not intelligent, and that in contrast, believing a millions-of-years process never observed is a demonstration of intelligence?As Christians, we immediately have to be careful and have set ourselves apart and need to "raise the bar" on what it means to be faithful, and also...intelligent.
As previously indicated, a millions-of-years process has not been observed. Further, we've already established that God provided specificity as to length of time. In addition to what is clearly laid out in Genesis 1, see 4th commandment as described in Exodus 20:8-11.Example number 2:
I gave this example before, but imagine that I write in a letter to you, the phrase "I have a cake in the oven". You open the letter and what do you think about?
A carrot cake? Perhaps with strawberry icing? A chocolate cake (my personal favorite)? Vanilla? Do you imagine a smell? How about a taste? What shape is it? A bunt cake? Round? Square? Is it warm and moist?
The truth is that the factual statement "I have a cake in the oven" can mean countless different things. It could even be used in an announcement of pregnancy.
So here is the point. If you came over to my house, I could show you that cake for you to see with your own two eyes, and there would be no mistaking the flavor, the size and shape, the smell, taste, moistness etc.
Observing with your own two eyes, will without question, give you a far more clear understanding of a concept, than simply reading about it. 100% of the time. Because it's a first hand experience, versus 2nd hand, 3rd hand etc.
Such as... believing millions-of-years processes? Or believing that people who have been dead for 4 days really are dead and cannot be brought back to life?I'll give one more example/reason:
Without observation, people could hypothetically believe in literally anything.
Are you now adding that believing God miraculously created the universe and life itself in the way/timing God tells in His word is the equivalent of believing in things like the Loch Ness monster and Bigfoot?Some people believe in the lochness monster. Some believe in Bigfoot. Some believe in...the boogeymonster hiding under their bed. Some believe that aliens make crop circles in our corn fields. Some people believe in Atlantis (the underwater city of mermaids). Some believe in astrology and...psychic palm readings.
These above concepts are examples of things that people believe in, because they've read about it or have been told about it, but they haven't actually experienced it. They're willing to believe in things because they've prioritised their imagination and interpretation of literature over what they see with their own eyes.
What you're describing here is uniformitarianism, which is an interpretive framework (a presuppositional view) widely used within geology, which is not the same as having physically observed a process beginning to end, as you put it, "with your own two eyes"--it is a linear extrapolation to imagine past events that cannot be presently observed. The Bible; however, does not portray earth's beginning nor past as being uniformitarian and/or gradual. In contrast, the Bible portrays, very clearly and specifically, a supernatural creation absent describing any known natural process as producing said creation, including the creation of life. Further, the Bible describes a judgment on all living flesh on land, from God, which describes a processes that would have significant geological implications.So back to the original point. If I see Africa and south America shaped like puzzle pieces, moving away from one another. And I see that rocks of Africa and south America are a 1:1 match, and I see mid oceanic rift unfolding before my eyes. We don't need a time machine to understand what is going on and what has come to pass.
If you see glacial moraines and glacial till and glacial striations suggesting 5-10 recent back to back ice ages. You don't need a time machine to understand that there is a long history that has passed.
And if these collective events that have come to pass, depict an extraordinary age of earth, then it is what is. And we should take the observations of ice ages and angular unconformities and sea level changes and varves and biogeographic distributions, and continental drift etc. And it should absolutely take precedence over a second or third hand subjective interpretation of written word. Hands down.
Are you now adding that those who believe in the scriptural account of creation are not intelligent, and that in contrast, believing a millions-of-years process never observed is a demonstration of intelligence?
Agreed, thank you for your faith and encouragement to myself and others here.1 Corinthians 1:19 For so it stands written, "I will exhibit the nothingness of the wisdom of the wise, and the intelligence of the intelligent I will bring to nought."
I am very convinced that our trust in Gods intelligence is called for, not an ability to persuade other people of our own.
How interesting."So if the question is what God did do, are you saying it is more reasonable to base what God did by applying a set of presuppositional assumptions to arrive at an inferred conclusion (as opposed to what He directly claimed to have done within His word)?"-RTP
I'll just requote myself.
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And if these collective events that have come to pass, depict an extraordinary age of earth, then it is what is. And we should take the observations of ice ages and angular unconformities and sea level changes and varves and biogeographic distributions, and continental drift etc. And it should absolutely take precedence over a second or third hand subjective interpretation of written word. Hands down.
What you've written here is a logic error. It makes no sense to start with what we know. A billion people right now 'know' there is no God, but they're all wrong. Billions other 'know' their god(s) are the truth, but they're all wrong. "Mr Evidence" (yourself) has no irrefutable proof that God exists or that He is the one true God--you don't. You and I may go to our graves knowing Jesus is the Christ and the Son of the only true and living God, but we [ultimately] believe that by faith, knowing that the Bible is true. We've already confirmed that no one observed millions-of-years processes, so by necessity the only option is an extrapolation afterwards. Your faith (your assurance of things hoped and conviction of things not seen) is that your geological interpretive framework as taught by your professors (and theirs, and theirs...) is true."Should, for example, no one believe Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (after Lazarus being dead for 4 days) because all observation of their own two eyes contradicts such an idea?" -RTP
What each individual does with their knowledge of an ancient earth, ultimately is up to them. It's important to start with what you know, then build faith thereafter, rather than shape what you know around pre existing faith.
We have to prioritize how we understand the world around us. Beginning with physically real evidence, then intellectual extrapolation afterwards. Not in a reverse order.
The evidence isn't speaking for itself, you are applying an interpretive framework to the evidence.One difference that I'll point out though, is that in the case of the earth, we have residual evidence. Evidence remaining from past events, that helps us understand events that have passed.
Is your belief then that Jesus rose from the dead based upon what is written in scripture, or based on a lack of physical evidence (his bones)? To clarify and not to get too off track: when the bible references resurrections, it is always a physical (bodily) resurrection (not spiritually)--the idea of a spiritual resurrection is just a spoken convention to convey the idea of that which was dead returning to life... but to be clear, Jesus rose physically/bodily and we will also have physical bodies when we live in eternity.With the resurrection however, we do not. For example:
We have fossils suggesting descent with modification. And we use those fossils to conclude that animals died in the past, and didn't come back to life.
We do not however have bones of Jesus, nor a body. We do not have blatant evidence to the contrary of the idea that Jesus was resurrected. Most certainly not in the case of a spiritual resurrection, and not in the case of a physical resurrection either.
You do not have evidence affirming an old earth. What you have is a philosophy by which you interpret evidence that leads you to believe the earth is old (turning a blind eye to what is clearly written in scripture). Only 8 people saw the flood and lived to tell about it. As such the flood narrative exists in every major culture around the world in some form and all affirm the major components of the biblical account. You can try to imagine it did not happen, but you have nothing by comparison to validate so this just becomes yet another imagined linear extrapolation you compare against your presupposed interpretive framework and so, in short, it's just one set of imagined events trumping a different set of imagined events--interesting, but I guess this is what is considered the conventional wisdom and intelligence of our time.So the two concepts are not equivalant in that there is evidence on earth for us to view to understand it's ancient age, in contradiction of a 6,000 year old earth. Whereas we do not have evidence remaining to affirm that Jesus in fact did not rise from the dead.
Regardless, what each person decides to do is up to them. Regardless of how difficult of a challenge it presents to Christians, it's a challenge we must adapt to, rather than putting on our aviators and turning a blind eye.
I agree, this is God's creation, and so it seems reasonable that His word would be the authority on it. I know you believe God's word is the authority as it relates to your sin, your need for a savior, and that if you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior that you will spend eternity with Him. I also know that you pick and choose what you accept as authoritative from scripture: In some cases it is God on the "spiritual stuff", in some cases it is you (for the "physical stuff"). General revelation (what you observe... which again, wasn't millions-of-years processes) is never authoritative over special revelation (God's word).Remember, this is God's creation. Man didn't create these features that depict an ancient earth, such as striations. It isn't a matter of deferring to the knowledge of man. It is matter of deferring to direct observation of creation to tell us the story. And as we know, direct observation will always give a more clear picture than a second or third hand interpretation of written word. Just as seeing the cake in my over will give a more clear picture than me simply telling you about it.
The truth is found in God's word and while people can discover additional truths not revealed specifically in scripture, conclusions from general revelation that contradict special revelation are always going to be in error.""What you're describing here is uniformitarianism, which is an interpretive framework (a presuppositional view) widely used within geology, which is not the same as having physically observed a process beginning to end, as you put it, "with your own two eyes"--it is a linear extrapolation to imagine past events that cannot be presently observed"
As ive mentioned before. If we have glacial striations, till, moraines, drop stones etc., We don't need a time machine to understand that glaciers have advanced in a location.
This is just one of the many examples I've given, but until you can address this, you aren't justified in suggesting that such a position is unreasonable just because we don't have a time machine.
The truth is that past events have left us with plenty of evidence demonstrating their occurance. And their occurrences collectively depict an extraordinarily old age.
a supernatural creation absent describing any known natural process as producing said creation, including the creation of life.
Adam and Eve were real, literal people that lived 5990 years ago. If we read the genealogies in the Bible Mary and her son Jesus were descended from Adam and Eve. This is why we have 1Tim2:15. They are clearly an archetype also, but this does not make them any less real or their story any less literal. They lived in the Tigris - Euphrates River valley and they were the beginning of many things. Farming, civilization, writing and so on. The plants and animals on Noah's ark are what we call domesticated. We can read about them in the Bible. History and Science goes a long way to explain to us what we are reading in our Bible. If we want to know more about Eden we can read our Biology book.Just curious. I really don't.
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