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Getting down to brass tacks, God wants/requires of us certain things to be done.It is not a religion, but simply what God wants us to do.
Reckon it,s not even to be considered. What brings joy, if not serving the Creator, even if the going gets tough.That's exactly how I feel. To coldly dismiss it as a "religion", but if God actually told us to do these things, wouldn't it be FAR worse to ignore them?
So do I have a religion or a faith, in your opinion?
I'm SO glad that I do not base my morality on the supposed pronouncements of some mythological super-authority, but strictly on... you know, actual ethical considerations?
(And before anyone balks at the term "mythological" - go look it up; it's not derogatory.)
Of course, we might argue that our evolved social behaviour is ultimately the result of some divine Masterplan, and that our reasoning faculties are likewise intended to make us figure such things out - but even then, it's not a question of authority, but of ethical considerations.
And there's the rub Ray. How far does a christian go in acknowledging the validity of another's belief in relation to their own. You can be sure that if you go too far that the Stinking Hounds of Christian Hell Damnation And Holiness who pop up around these parts will be damning your soul as well. Even if only in secret. They are on the prowl as we speak, and there lips would be drooling as they told you your fate. In love of course.
But I do appreciate that you are working hard at not damning us in our unbelief/wrong belief. It's a nice trait of yours. And I know how difficult it is because I've walked the same type rope myself, whether you believe it or not.
Getting down to brass tacks, God wants/requires of us certain things to be done.It is not a religion, but simply what God wants us to do. If a king were to phone me or anyone, and say something like, " There,s something I would like you to do for me", "Me?"
"Are you sure you got the right number your Majesty" "Oh yes, quite sure"
"But what if I mess up?" "I will take the responsability". How much more so then if the King of Kings the master of the universe wants/wishes/requires that we help Him out, so to speak. Is it not be considered a great priviledge and honour.It,s simply about what God wants. Why?, because He knows best.
It is not true to say one loves God, yet hate their fellow. It is just not possible.
So do I have a religion or a faith, in your opinion?
Before I would ever say a person "has no Faith," I would have to be really really shown that, explicitly. I think you've actually shown quite a bit that can only be attributed to Faith. I also think that w/o the Temple rituals much of the "religiosoty" of Judaism may well be ... gone - poof.
In that regard, we are hardly in disagreement.Allow me to again point out a false dichotomy: what is Love, if not THE highest ethical consideration?
If you think that anything stated in this thread is an instance of severe, it's a good thing you weren't around at the dawn of Christianity or during the Middle Ages. What would you have thought about Saint Francis of Assisi ordering one his brothers to stand on his back while he lay down in the mud as punishment for thinking sinful thoughts?From what I gathered so far in this thread (and others), many flavours of Christianity seem to rely on a kind of psychological self-mutilation - something that goes WAY beyond simply acknowledging that every one of us has some faults and doesn't always live up to his or her own moral precepts.
I find that oddly disturbing, like witnessing a disturbed [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] tear into his own flesh and enjoying both the pain and the degradation.
Original sin is the recognition that the person which each one of us is differs from the person that we are meant to be.
In fact, to break with the stereotype of the contrary pantheist-nay-sayer
Nothing that I've ever seen would lead me to believe that the natural human condition involves much desire for self improvement. I would agree that most teenagers have a rebellious streak, a desire to break the rules for the sake of breaking the rules, and wish to say "In yer face man!" to authority figures. Whether this comes naturally or arises from the way our current society raises teenagers, I'm not sure, though I lean towards the later.If you changed the "meant to be" for a "could be" I would like your description. But that is not the doctrine of original sin you are describing. It is simply the natural human condition, often surpressed in children, of desiring to change and become more than we are at present, and to grow up into the world we live in.
Well, if you know anybody who became a good person without ever being disciplined, I'd like to meet them. Personally I see our society's problems as being exactly the opposite. We have a self-esteem movement which teaches us to heap praise on children and adults regardless of what they do. We have a school system that celebrates children who deliver the worst academic performance in the industrialized world. We have advertising which tells us that we deserve to have everything, even if we can't pay for it. We have politicians who constantly give us favors and send the bill to future generations. Everywhere we look, we have problems resulting from the fact that wer'e not willing to criticize ourselves.Original Sin has far more odious connotations which are used by the unscrupulous to pour guilt upon the innocent. The idea that a child is "born in sin" for instance is ridiculous, unobservable, and corrupting. It is a self fulfilling prophecy foisted upon the most vulnerable ultimately as a way of trying to turn them into the sad creatures we have often turned into through the same method. And it is a doctrine that has infiltrated so deeply into our western societies that even atheists can grow up believing that children are "naturally naughty" and need to be "disciplined" into goodness. Augustine is the anti-christ in my opinion.
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