Do you have to see the Cross as Jewish, before you can understand it, as a Jew?

pinacled · Jul 21, 2020

visionary said:
Bronze itself has its own connotations. Bronze is the also referred to as brazen or brass. Bronze is a somewhat inferior quality of metal to silver and gold.

It is the making of the altar in Exodus which the priests would slay the animal sacrifices. Exodus gives instructions that the items inside of the Tabernacle (the menorah, incense altar, show bread table, and the Ark of the Covenant in the most Holy) were to be made of gold, but everything outside the tent was bronze. So we have a bronze outer court and a gold inner sanctuary.

I believe there are a lot of hints given by the choosing of bronze as the material to make the articles.

Numbers 21:9
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Nehushtan (Hebrew: נחשתן Nəḥuštān [nəħuʃtaːn]) is the derogatory name given to the bronze serpent When the Jews crucified Yeshua, lifted him up on the pole, He, in their eyes was evil. To them he represented a serpent. Nāḥāš, Hebrew for "snake", is associated with divination, including the verb form meaning "to practice divination or fortune-telling". So the truth becomes a lie in the ears of the religious leaders. Yeshua's prophecies scared them. It is the negative photo before process. So I could tie the outer court application in the redemption from sin with brass used, and with that the brass serpent on the pole.

Seems to me that a principle of temperance is being conveyed.
Those that killed our Lord are distinguished from those who are healed by Yeshua's loving sacrifice for his friends.
Where the leaders at the time called good evil and used a corrupt roman judicial system to convict a sentence of death.
The Lord defeated such death.
Colossians 2:15

Blessed be The Holy One

visionary · Jul 21, 2020

pinacled said:
Not all transgressions are bore by Yeshua.
There is one that is unforgivable.

Does it enter the realm of the abomination which has not sacrifice for it also?

pinacled · Jul 21, 2020

visionary said:
Does it enter the realm of the abomination which has not sacrifice for it also?

Murder?

visionary · Jul 21, 2020

pinacled said:
There are other uses for bronze in The Mishkan(tabernacle).
1 corinthians 1:27

And thou shalt make the court of the tabernacle: for the south side southward there shall be hangings for the court of fine twined linen of an hundred cubits long for one side:

10 And the twenty pillars thereof and their twenty sockets shall be of brass; the hooks of the pillars and their fillets shall be of silver.

Are not those sockets on the curtain wall the surrounds the tent "temple" in the wilderness? That is all part of the outer court.

pinacled · Jul 21, 2020

visionary said:
Are not those sockets on the curtain wall the surrounds the tent "temple" in the wilderness? That is all part of the outer court.

Depends on perspective.

visionary · Jul 21, 2020

pinacled said:
Murder?

If the transgression is not bore by Yeshua, then it has no sacrifice for it. The abomination has no sacrificing process, no cleansing process, nothing...So is it also the unforgivable?

visionary · Jul 21, 2020

pinacled said:
Depends on perspective.

Is those brass sockets in the outer court or the inner sanctuary? There were four pillars within the tabernacle, to support the veil which divided the Most Holy from the Holy place; each of the four pillars resting upon a silver socket.

pinacled · Jul 21, 2020

visionary said:
Is those brass sockets in the outer court or the inner sanctuary? There were four pillars within the tabernacle, to support the veil which divided the Most Holy from the Holy place; each of the four pillars resting upon a silver socket.

I wonder if the silver represented the 12 tribes camped around the inner court till a time of peace with pillars and curtains. Numbered, hung, and retired according to a given ordinance in time.

40 sockets of silver to number of bronze rings

Broken Fence · Jul 22, 2020

The cross is a symbol of the crucifixtion of Yeshua in my humble opinion. As a Christian I try to always remember the suffering of Christ on the cross. To be ever present with me to remind of the blood that was shed by The Son of God for my sin, so that I may follow God's commandments.

visionary · Jul 23, 2020

Broken Fence said:
The cross is a symbol of the crucifixtion of Yeshua in my humble opinion. As a Christian I try to always remember the suffering of Christ on the cross. To be ever present with me to remind of the blood that was shed by The Son of God for my sin, so that I may follow God's commandments.

Rev 11 gives you a heads up on those who remain in the outer court hanging onto the cross and refuse to move into the inner sanctuary.

GedaliahMaegil · Jul 23, 2020

HARK! said:
I don't know. I haven't found anything to back up that story. Something seems out of place about it.

Neither have I. There is much about the emmissaries that gets lost in fable and myth. For example, there is a myth that circulated about the emmissary, Yochanan, in that he was said to have been put in a vessel of boiling oil, only to come out of it unscathed.

I tend to view these "accounts" as being suspect.

AbbaLove · Jul 23, 2020

Gottservant said:
... - as Jesus said "if they hate my word, they will hate yours" -

Some may hate His word; while others revere the word as God's "love" for the world (John 3:16). Some see the cross as foolishness; while others see it as the power of God (1 Corinthians 1:18).

Was your purpose in misquoting John 15:20 to point out that the cross is foolishness to some and to others it is the power of God. To the Lord God the Cross is for "whoever" will come to faith in Yeshua.

John 15:20
"If they kept My word, they will also keep yours."

visionary · Jul 23, 2020

AbbaLove said:
Some may hate His word; while others revere the word as God's "love" for the world (John 3:16). Some see the cross as foolishness; while others see it as the power of God (1 Corinthians 1:18).

Was your purpose in misquoting John 15:20 to point out that the cross is foolishness to some and to others it is the power of God. To the Lord God the Cross is for "whoever" will come to faith in Yeshua.

John 15:20
"If they kept My word, they will also keep yours."

,

It always amazes me that the concept gets lost in the technicalities. Yes, the talk of Yeshua on the cross, sacrificing Himself, for our salvation, is foolish talk to some and to others it is the power of God. The gospel story is a powerful story of what lengths God went to save us. Being the Lamb of God, sacrificed for our sins is incomprehensible, yet by the prophetic step by step story contained within the Temple services and the annual feasts, it is foretold.

Some people caught up in the technicalities of the process, get lost in the meaning and purpose, and missed it in the actuality. Sometimes I think that even today, there are those who are caught up in the rituals and protocols that they miss the meaning and purpose, thinking that they are on the right path, and yet still haven't ventured on the narrow road.

Looking at the walks of life of the professed believers and emulating the code of the group is one of the foolish things a believer can do. Looking up, praying without ceasing, and living a connected life with Him is truly the only way to know the next level in the upward narrow walk awaiting the people of God.

GedaliahMaegil · Jul 23, 2020

AbbaLove said:
Was your purpose in misquoting John 15:20 to point out that the cross is foolishness to some and to others it is the power of God.

Perhaps you will have your answer, when you tell us why you have misquoted 1 Corinthians 1:18.

"The word of the cross, to those perishing, is foolishness; to we being saved it is the power of Elohim."

The focus is on the message, not the cross itself.

pinacled · Jul 23, 2020

GedaliahMaegil said:
Perhaps you will have your answer, when you tell us why you have misquoted 1 Corinthians 1:18.

The focus is on the message, not the cross itself.

Ole sh'aul cites yeshayahu) isaiah 29 in his letter to the Corinthian congregation.

From what I recall there were issues with falseness being spread and that the entire message was being perverted by the enemy of The Lord.
Including the witness accounts of The Lords resurrection.

I agree that the cross or form of execution is a hard reality to accept as something a fellow human would do to an innocent person.

Yet the cruelty of the deceitful in power were desperate to silence any hope in the hearts of those who they oppressed.

AbbaLove · Jul 23, 2020

GedaliahMaegil said:
Perhaps you will have your answer, when you tell us why you have misquoted *1 Corinthians 1:18.

You posted the same *ASV translation. The following 60 translations use "GOD" instead of Elohim ...
1 Corinthians 1:18 - Bible Gateway ... Is he technically too orthodox

"The word of the cross, to those perishing, is foolishness;
to we being saved it is the power of Elohim."

Is he suggesting that unless it's translated as "power of Elohim" it's technically a "misquote" ...

GedaliahMaegil said:
The focus is on the message, not the cross itself.

Without The Cross There Wouldn't Be A Message

visionary said:
It always amazes me that the concept gets lost in the technicalities. Some people caught up in the technicalities of the process, get lost in the meaning and purpose, and missed it in the actuality.

The Focus Is On The Message Of The Cross

GedaliahMaegil · Jul 23, 2020

AbbaLove said:
You posted the same *ASV translation. The following 60 translations use "GOD" instead of Elohim ...
1 Corinthians 1:18 - Bible Gateway ... Is he technically too orthodox

No. I actually translated directly from the interlinear. Your point is a non-sequitur.

AbbaLove said:
Is he suggesting that unless it's translated as "power of Elohim" it's technically a "misquote" ...

I know his title as Elohim. For a Hebrew-speaker, that is the direct transliterated translation of θεός.

AbbaLove said:

Without The Cross There Wouldn't Be A Message

Click to expand...

There is an over-arching message, the glad tidings of the Kingdom, of which the message of the cross is only a part. Those tidings began in B`resheet and continue throughout the Scriptures, including those Scriptures in the B`rit Chadashah. There's more to the story.

AbbaLove said:

The Focus Is On The Message Of The Cross

Click to expand...

And yet, you cannot put the cart before the horse and make the cross the focus. The glad tidings of the Kingdom are more far-reaching than just 1 Corinthians 15:1-5.

HARK! · Jul 23, 2020

GedaliahMaegil said:
And yet, you cannot put the cart before the horse and make the cross the focus. The glad tidings of the Kingdom are more far-reaching than just 1 Corinthians 15:1-5.

We see arrows all throughout our Father's word, pointing to Yahshua; but Yahshua's entire ministry points back to our Father.

I've heard televangelists repeat, "it's all about the cross," ad nauseam. That hurts my ears. A message that runs consistently throughout Yahshua's life, is about bringing esteem to his Father. What happened at Calvary was an expression of Yahshua's commitment to bringing that esteem.

Hallelu YAH!

GedaliahMaegil · Jul 23, 2020

HARK! said:
We see arrows all throughout our Father's word, pointing to Yahshua; but Yahshua's entire ministry points back to our Father.

I've heard televangelists repeat, "it's all about the cross," ad nauseam. That hurts my ears. A message that runs consistently throughout Yahshua's life. is about bringing esteem to his Father. What happened at Calvary was an expression of Yahshua's commitment to bringing that esteem.

Hallelu YAH!

AbbaLove · Jul 24, 2020

GedaliahMaegil said:
And yet, you cannot put the cart before the horse and make the cross the focus. The glad tidings of the Kingdom are more far-reaching than just 1 Corinthians 15:1-5.

I did not post 1 Corinthians 15:1-5 ... that was your doing.

My previous reference was/is 1 Corinthians 1:17-20

1 Corinthians 1:17-20 (Complete Jewish Bible)
17 For the Messiah did not send me to immerse but to proclaim the Good News — and to do it without relying on “wisdom” that consists of mere rhetoric, so as not to rob the Messiah’s execution-stake of its power.
18 For the message about the execution-stake is nonsense to those in the process of being destroyed, but to us in the process of being saved it is the power of God.
19 Indeed, the Tanakh says,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise
and frustrate the intelligence of the intelligent.”

20 Where does that leave the philosopher, the Torah-teacher, or any of today’s thinkers? Hasn’t God made this world’s wisdom look pretty foolish?

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