...Do you even believe in Evolution in the first palce?

AV1611VET · Jun 15, 2013

TLK Valentine said:
If you can follow where I'm going with this, I'll tell you one way they could've done it -- no divine sonic weaponry required.

I'm only interested in how God did it.

Anyone can pull variables out of thin air and apply them to the story; but then it begs the question: Were you there?

TLK Valentine · Jun 15, 2013

AV1611VET said:
I'm only interested in how God did it.

Then you're truly not interested in discussing this at all.

Or (far more likely) you figured out where I'm going with this, and are afraid to go any further.

Anyone can pull variables out of thin air and apply them to the story; but then it begs the question: Were you there?

No, and neither were you -- and you have had no contact whatsoever with the One who was.

We're both dealing with the same historical document, except that I understand that historical documents (especially in wartime) are written by winners, who are under no obligation to tell the unvarninshed truth of their victories and have many incentives to embellish.

It's certainly in the Hebrews' best interests to claim divine aid in battle, even if such aid wasn't forthcoming, as it would inspire their followers (as it does for you to this day) and frighten their enemies (which, sadly, it no longer does).

Anyone secure in their faith wouldn't be afraid to consider the possibilities -- especially when the Hebrews all but told you how they really did it between the lines of their own propaganda.

It's right there, AV -- if you have the courage to look at it.

AV1611VET · Jun 15, 2013

TLK Valentine said:
It's right there, AV -- if you have the courage to look at it.

I'll pass ... thanks.

Ophiolite · Jun 15, 2013

AV1611VET said:
I'll pass ... thanks.

I am curious. I'm going to make some presumptions. Let me know if any of them are invalid.
1. God made you.
2. This included your intelligence, your sense of wonder and your power of reason.
3. He must have given these to you for a reason.
4. Since you believe we are made in his image one would surely suspect he intended us to use these.

So, are you not flouting God's wishes by refusing to use your intelligence and power or reason. It seems almost heretical.

AV1611VET · Jun 15, 2013

Hi, Ophiolite ... nice to meet you!

Ophiolite said:
I am curious. I'm going to make some presumptions. Let me know if any of them are invalid.
1. God made you.
2. This included your intelligence, your sense of wonder and your power of reason.
3. He must have given these to you for a reason.
4. Since you believe we are made in his image one would surely suspect he intended us to use these.

So, are you not flouting God's wishes by refusing to use your intelligence and power or reason. It seems almost heretical.

I don't use what God has given me against Him, like most scientists do.

He has also given us a Book detailing what He did, how He did it, when He did it, where He did it, why He did it, and who the eyewitness were, and I would rather put my faith in the written Documentation, than what man can tell me happened.

Notice here ...

2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Peter says he was there and witnessed Jesus with his own eyes.

Yet ... he makes this doosey of a statement ...

2 Peter 1:19a We have also a more sure word of prophecy;

Peter is, in essence, saying that the Bible is more worthy than eyewitness testimony!

As Jesus put it ...

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Here, Jesus is saying that if scientists even observe someone rising from the dead, they won't believe God did it, if they are already of the persuasion that the books of Moses are not authentic.

Mr Strawberry · Jun 15, 2013

AV1611VET said:
I don't use what God has given me against Him, like most scientists do.

They don't actually. But even if they did, what you do, as Ophiolite pointed out, is worse. You deliberately switch your brain off in order to avoid any possibility of questioning your faith or your God. You lobotomise yourself through fear of the consequences of thinking for yourself. Your God, if He is remotely sane, would be appalled at what you are doing with what He has given you.

AV1611VET · Jun 15, 2013

Mr Strawberry said:
You deliberately switch your brain off in order to avoid any possibility of questioning your faith or your God.

It's a form of fasting.

In fasting, you suppress the natural to bring out the spiritual.

Since the brain is part of the body, I switch it off so I can concentrate on the spiritual.

Mr Strawberry · Jun 15, 2013

AV1611VET said:
It's a form of fasting.

In fasting, you suppress the natural to bring out the spiritual.

Since the brain is part of the body, I switch it off so I can concentrate on the spiritual.

You think God would approve of that do you? He would be pleased that you purposely switch off the very organ that distinguishes you from the rest of the animal kingdom so that you can wallow in self congratulation would He?

AV1611VET · Jun 15, 2013

Mr Strawberry said:
You think God would approve of that do you?

Does it matter to an atheist?

Do you think God would approve of you saying He doesn't exist?

Ophiolite · Jun 15, 2013

AV1611VET said:
Hi, Ophiolite ... nice to meet you!

Hello.

I don't use what God has given me against Him, like most scientists do.

You seem to have a conundrum here.

If God created the world and man through the operation of natural laws, including evolution, then scientists are not acting against him, but intenionally or accidentaly are doing his will by revealing the glory of his creation.

It seems in condemning scientists in this way, you are also condemning William Paley. How do you resolve that condemnation of the author of Natural Theology when he is one of the most important Christian apologists of all time? I suppose we should also throw into the mix many hundreds, probably thousands of diligent ministers of the church who saw it practically as their duty to investigate nature as a means of glorifying the Lord.

I would be interested to know how you resolve these points in your mind.

Cheeky Monkey · Jun 15, 2013

AV1611VET said:
Does it matter to an atheist?

Do you think God would approve of you saying He doesn't exist?

Should he exists I'm kind of banking on him appreciating honesty.

TLK Valentine · Jun 15, 2013

AV1611VET said:
Hi, Ophiolite ... nice to meet you!

I don't use what God has given me against Him, like most scientists do.

He has also given us a Book detailing what He did, how He did it, when He did it, where He did it, why He did it, and who the eyewitness were, and I would rather put my faith in the written Documentation, than what man can tell me happened.

You see, the only "man" AV trusts is himself -- he tells himself that the Bible is God's documentation, and he chooses to worship it (pardon, worship It) as such.

Notice here ...

2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Peter says he was there and witnessed Jesus with his own eyes.

Which is a good thing for someone to say if he wants some cred in relogious circles.

Yet ... he makes this doosey of a statement ...

2 Peter 1:19a We have also a more sure word of prophecy;

Peter is, in essence, saying that the Bible is more worthy than eyewitness testimony!

I'm sorry -- I didn't see Peter referring to the Bible -- I see him referring to prophets.

Granted, some prophets are mentioned and discussed in the Bible, but don't you feel just the least bit ashamed for making such a stretch?

As Jesus put it ...

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Here, Jesus is saying that if scientists even observe someone rising from the dead, they won't believe God did it, if they are already of the persuasion that the books of Moses are not authentic.

Of course, Jesus was referring to scientists, wasn't he? Very convenient for you.

I swear, AV -- I've never seen the Bible mangled so badly -- and by a self-professed believer of all people.

Don't you think you should spend a little less time trying to convince... whoever... that you "believe" the stories and a little more time trying to understand them?

TLK Valentine · Jun 15, 2013

AV1611VET said:
It's a form of fasting.

In fasting, you suppress the natural to bring out the spiritual.

Since the brain is part of the body, I switch it off so I can concentrate on the spiritual.

Fast too much and you starve. Look at how much you've already missed at Jericho...

TLK Valentine · Jun 15, 2013

By the way, AV -- have you figured out what the Walls of Jericho and the Walls of Troy had in common?

AV1611VET · Jun 15, 2013

Ophiolite said:
If God created the world and man through the operation of natural laws, including evolution, then scientists are not acting against him, but intenionally or accidentaly are doing his will by revealing the glory of his creation.

God didn't create evolution.

[Theistic] evolution says we are copy errors; whereas God says we are created in the the image and likeness of Him -- no mistakes.

We didn't come from the seed of an animal, we came from the dust of the ground.

AV1611VET · Jun 15, 2013

TLK Valentine said:
By the way, AV -- have you figured out what the Walls of Jericho and the Walls of Troy had in common?

Your admiration?

EmpAtheist · Jun 15, 2013

AV1611VET said:
God didn't create evolution.

[Theistic] evolution says we are copy errors; whereas God says we are created in the the image and likeness of Him -- no mistakes.

We didn't come from the seed of an animal, we came from the dust of the ground.

I had a friend named Dusty... But he was also a product of evolution by natural selection like me.

TLK Valentine · Jun 15, 2013

AV1611VET said:
God didn't create evolution.

Look at you proclaiming what God hasn't done!

[Theistic] evolution says we are copy errors; whereas God says we are created in the the image and likeness of Him -- no mistakes.

How does Theistic evolution say that?

We didn't come from the seed of an animal, we came from the dust of the ground.

Why not both?

TLK Valentine · Jun 15, 2013

AV1611VET said:
Your admiration?

And your evasion -- but that's not what I'm talking about.

C'mon AV -- I've made this as simple as I can; far simpler than the Bible authors did. There's a glaring similarity between the Israelites at Jericho and the Greeks at Troy.

How does an army bypass the walls? If you're right about who wrote the Bible, then it was God himself who put the clues in there for his more astute followers -- don't disappoint Him.

AV1611VET · Jun 15, 2013

EmpAtheist said:
But he was also a product of evolution by natural selection like me.

Who told you that?

...Do you even believe in Evolution in the first palce?

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

I've already read the books you want burned.

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Newbie

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Newbie

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape

Newbie

I've already read the books you want burned.

I've already read the books you want burned.

I've already read the books you want burned.

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Newbie

I've already read the books you want burned.

I've already read the books you want burned.

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

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