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I'm sorry if this has been said already, but, honestly I just find it somewhat alarming just how frail people seem to think the work of the Cross is that it can be undone. I think to say that salvation isn't eternal or can be undone, quite frankly, mocks what Christ did for us at Golgotha.
Jesus Himself is the first fruit of the Resurrected Church, and when the Resurrection occurs, we will be made like Him in bodily form. Do any of us honestly believe that Christ would ever go back from that to having a body that can perish again? Or is it more so that, Christ has conquered death and it shall never more have a grip on Him? Why else is it said He holds the keys of death and hades, and if He does indeed hold them as the Bible claims, why would He hand over ANY of His flock to those vanquished foes?
He intercedes for us at the right hand of God RIGHT NOW as we speak. He pleads our case to the Father, and we have been crucified along with Christ to the old ways of sin and death, and in Him find life in a new creation. These bodies will perish, but He didn't come to save our flesh, but our souls.
Is not the work of the Cross superceding over any of our sins? Did it not cover future sins? If it didn't, not one of us past the day of the of His crucifixtion would be saved. Yet we know that's not the case, and if His sacrifice atones for the sins of those 2000 years later, why would it not cover their sins PAST the date of their salvation? Would it not cover them ENTIRELY for their WHOLE lives? __________________
well said it troubles me as well that anyone could think the work of the cross could be undone
what are some you guys' definition of "saved"?
it is very possible to fall away from God and lose your salvation. i think some of you are confusing guarantee with opportunity and works with obedience.
hebrews 4:1-6
1Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
"So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' " And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. 4For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." 5And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest." 6It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience.
1 timothy 1:18-20
18Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, 19holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. 20Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.
1 corinthians 15:1-2
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
2 timothy 4:6-8
6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that dayand not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
the opportunity of salvation is always gonna be there but that doesnt mean you're gauranteed to cash it in no matter what you do. we are still required to live in obedience to God. if we dont do this, then we lose out on the promise of salvation.
as already mentioned. being saved is not a one time deal, it is a decision that must be made daily and on purpose. to daily trust and obey God.
I don't think that's true at all to be frank. Peter himself denied Christ three times, but Jesus still loved and loves him dearly. I don't think for those three denials he wasn't saved.Here is what I think, Once saved always saved for as long as you wish to be! Once saved, you do still have freedom of choice to deny Christ and therefore lose your salvation. Does anyone agree?
God can indeed choose certain people to be his like he did with the disciples, and he can choose who will be subjects to his wrath like he did with pharoah.
however, thats not what he has done for everyone in the faith. if this is the case then scripture contradicts itself.
hebrews 3:12-14
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
there's no reason for this warning to the saints if God arbitrarily chooses who's gonna make it and who is not. we wouldnt need to hold on to anything, our salvation would be gauranteed no matter what.
That's not necessarily saying that if you don't share in Christ you're no longer saved, it may be speaking of no longer having a fellowship with God and your relationship with Him being on the rocks. For example, the immoral brother spoken of in
1 Corinthians 5:1-5 NIV
1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
We read about a brother who's sinning flagrantly in the open in a church in Corinth, yet Paul does not say, "Toss this man out, he is not of God and His salvation has no place for him." But exactly as it says, toss him out that his sinful desires might be done away with and he himself will be saved on the day of Christ's coming at the Resurrection.
Here's a bit of a curve ball for you then. You seem to be of the position that Salvation is something that can be fallen away from, if that is indeed true, then I believe we are all in trouble if we don't apply understanding of scripture in totality with itself.the passage you underlined is exactly what im saying and the part of your post that i underlined is also what im saying.
let me make this clear to you because there's two scenarios here and God's word does not say that the person is gauranteed to turn back if they're tossed out:
toss them out...sinful desires done away with.... will be saved on the day christ comes.
toss them out...sinful desires NOT done away with... will NOT be saved on the day christ comes.
you're absolutely right. we do need to understand scripture in its totality.Here's a bit of a curve ball for you then. You seem to be of the position that Salvation is something that can be fallen away from, if that is indeed true, then I believe we are all in trouble if we don't apply understanding of scripture in totality with itself.
Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
yes, he did die once for all our sins, past, present, and future which means we can have access to that forgiveness IF WE REPENT! if we sin and dont repent from our actions then we lose out on the promise because we made a choice to turn away from the promise. God will make us go through some crap to try and convince us to turn back but we still have to make a decision to turn back.What Paul is saying in his encouragement that we remain faithful is such, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God Himself, died for our sins, we all know this, we all attest to this, we all believe this, obviously. To disrespect that is a very bad thing, there is no doubting that.
But, with that in mind, we have to understand what it means when we consider it as a whole. If Christ died ONCE for our sins, does that not cover future sins? If it did not, how are any of us alive past the Crucifixion saved at all? We wouldn't be if that sacrifice didn't stand for all time for the believer. Even if they become backslidden, the Holy Spirit remains upon them because of their initial faith.
he IS talking about believers in that scripture. why does he say "we". paul is a believer too. then that passage saysHe's not talking about a believer here. He is talking about someone who has heard the Gospel and rejected it. After all, the Day of Judgment is not for the righteous, I.E, those in Christ, but the unrepentant, the unsaved. If he WERE talking about the saved, he would be completely contradicting what he said immediately above!
i dont agree with your interpretation. i believe this is talking about rewards in heaven. it doesnt say anything about bad deeds but about worthless material things that have no value in the coming age(gold, silver, costly stones, etc). we will lose all the worthless material possessions that we accumulate on this earth but the eternal things like loving our neighbor as ourself through numerous deeds like caring for widows and orphans, providing for the poor, spending time with people who need a friend, etc. will gain us rewards in the coming age.1 Corinthians 3:10-15 NIV
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
If a Christian becomes unbelieving, his misdeeds and ill gotten works will be stacked like sticks for a fire, but he will be saved.
of course they will. thats what happens when one believes and begins to submit their life to jesus. they become eligable for salvation and escape condemnation, thus passing from death to life.John 5:24 NIV
24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
thats right. those who are in christ are a new creation. how one gets to be in christ is whats in question here.2 Corinthians 5:17-19 NIV
17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
have i ever heard someone passing from life to death? thats not even an argument, thats just a charismatic statement.You have probably heard a few times in scripture of someone passing from death to life in Christ, but tell me, have you EVER heard of someone passing from life to death? Can Christ's resurrection be undone? Or is the word of God more powerful than man's unfaithfulness? God will deal with the unbelieving child, just as any parent will discipline an obstinate child, so will God deal with His own.
I can't show that your conclusions are in error, because they stack up with the overall teaching of Scripture!if you or anyone else can show me that my interpretation is in error than i will gladly accept what you say, but i have yet to get sufficient conformation from scripture of what you propose. i refuse to accept something as scriptural truth because it fits my life, or sounds nice, is comfortable for me and being in a situation where my salvation is iron clad regardless of my life choices would certainly be neato.
i have to, with all my effort, interpret scripture as accurately as possible, take it for what it is, and deal with it by aligning my life with it. again, if anyone can show me that im off in my interpretation than i'll change my position.
take care..
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