Do you agree with this statement?

[Lion King]

"Without the Virgin Mary, there would be no Jesus Christ. Without the Virgin Mary there would be no Mother Church."

Yes or No?

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Well yes, God didn't exactly shoot a lightning bolt to the ground and Jesus was suddenly there now did he?

 

[Cappadocious]

With a couple modifications:

*There would be no incarnate Jesus Christ.

There would be no Mother Church in Christ, because the assembly of God as such pre-existed the Virgin Mary.

 

[Gottservant]

True.

But even Mary would say, "what does that have to do with me?"

 

[bbbbbbb]

With a couple modifications:

*There would be no incarnate Jesus Christ.

There would be no Mother Church in Christ, because the assembly of God as such pre-existed the Virgin Mary.

My thoughts exactly. Thank you.

 

[ViaCrucis]

With a couple modifications:

*There would be no incarnate Jesus Christ.

There would be no Mother Church in Christ, because the assembly of God as such pre-existed the Virgin Mary.

Bingo.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[chapmic]

No, I don't agree with either statement. God could have chosen another person if he wanted to. Mary was a vessel for Jesus, and we all can be used to be God's vessel is his choice and there is no way any person can stop God's plans

 

[InnerPhyre]

The Pre-Eternal Logos would not have become incarnate without the Theotokos (Virgin Mary) and without the Incarnation, there would be no Church.

 

[Optimax]

If Mary had not received what she was told then God would have used someone else.

However, The Lord knew Mary's heart.

Therefore He knew she would respond properly.

 

[Kristos]

If Mary had not received what she was told then God would have used someone else.

However, The Lord knew Mary's heart.

Therefore He knew she would respond properly.

I think that could only be true if God wasn't...God. As part of His eternal plan there could be no "if" - so in fact it was, is and always will be Mary.

 

[ViaCrucis]

This is actually a rather interesting place of thought.

St. Paul says that "But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the Law"

He is the Son of God, the Eternal Logos with or without Mary. But our Lord Jesus Christ is God-Man, both divine and human. And He is human because He is Mary's offspring. He is flesh of her flesh.

Being Mary's Child is a fundamental dimension of our Lord's identity. So for Jesus to be Jesus, can He be Jesus apart from what God has in fact actually done in history.

We can certainly talk about what-ifs; what if Abraham said no to God's covenant promise? What if Moses didn't return to Egypt? What if Mary hadn't agreed? And while such questions may be fascinating in an alt-history sort of way, in the same way it's interesting to think about what would have happened had the Confederacy won the American Civil War, or what if Oliver Cromwell's Commonwealth survived and the English monarchy never restored, or what if the Axis Powers won World War II. But when we start to talk about such things in the realm of the historical activities of God, His direct promises and acts, is there really a legitimate place for such "what-ifs"?

It's not difficult to imagine a theoretical alternative history where Abraham wasn't the one God made His promise to, and that Israel wouldn't become the Covenant Nation, and that the Deliverer and Savior of the world didn't come through the lineage of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, Jesse, David, and so forth. What if it were a Mesoamerican tribe through which God did such acts?

But then again we read that statement which St. Paul writes, "But in the fullness of time". For Paul it seems that this entire history of God is the purposeful, unmovable, deliberate direction which all things were to happen. That there never was anyone but Abraham, there never was anyone but David, there never was anyone but Mary.

This Jesus, Lord and Christ, Son of God and Son of Man; Incarnate Logos, made flesh of Mary's womb is as we confess, happening in history as it was to happen. That perhaps even if we were to conceive even of a hundred diverse timelines, a Southern victory in the American Civil War, a successful English Commonwealth, etc that in all possible worlds there is still Jesus Christ, the Son of Mary, the Son of David, the Root of Jesse, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Seed of Abraham.

Again, just some thoughts. For whatever they may or may not be worth.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Without Eve there could be no Mary, Jesus or no people either. But Eve is not given any special title. Just my thoughts.

 

[By Faith Alone]

There IS NO mother church anyhow. As someone else said He would have chosen another lady for His purpose.

 

[Lion King]

For those who say Yes, are you guys actually advocating the idea that God’s whole plan of redemption hinged on a single human being’s decision?

Was God dependant on Mary?

 

[ViaCrucis]

For those who say Yes, are you guys actually advocating the idea that God’s whole plan of redemption hinged on a single human being’s decision?

Was God dependant on Mary?

Perhaps try re-reading through the posts in the thread.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

There IS NO mother church anyhow. As someone else said He would have chosen another lady for His purpose.

The Church is my mother. I am fed and nourished by her; by the command of God through her I receive the life-giving Word and Sacraments of God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Knee V]

For those who say Yes, are you guys actually advocating the idea that God’s whole plan of redemption hinged on a single human being’s decision?

Was God dependant on Mary?

Nobody in this thread said anything of the sort.

 

[InnerPhyre]

For those who say Yes, are you guys actually advocating the idea that God’s whole plan of redemption hinged on a single human being’s decision?

Was God dependant on Mary?

What if after the Ascension, the Apostles just decided to give up and forget the whole thing? It's a stupid question. The fact that God did not need the Apostles does not diminish the amount of honor due to the Apostles for accomplishing God's will.

 

[InnerPhyre]

Without Eve there could be no Mary, Jesus or no people either. But Eve is not given any special title. Just my thoughts.

Because of Eve's disobedience all men died. Because of Mary's obedience, all men live. Who is more worthy of a title?

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Because of Eve's disobedience all men died. Because of Mary's obedience, all men live. Who is more worthy of a title?

Who is mother of all? Eve. But I don't believe in glorifying any person at all. This seems to what Paul rebukes the Corinthians for.