Do you agree with the Lutheran view of Predestination?

[theseed]

37. But as earnestly as we maintain that there is an election of grace, or a predestination to salvation, so decidedly do we teach, on the other hand, that there is no election of wrath, or predestination to damnation. Scripture plainly reveals the truth that the love of God for the world of lost sinners is universal, that is, that it embraces all men without exception, that Christ has fully reconciled all men unto God, and that God earnestly desires to bring all men to faith, to preserve them therein, and thus to save them, as Scripture testifies, 1 Tim. 2:4: "God will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." No man is lost because God has predestined him to eternal damnation. -- Eternal election is a cause why the elect are brought to faith in time, Acts 13:48; but election is not a cause why men remain unbelievers when they hear the Word of God. The reason assigned by Scripture for this sad fact is that these men judge themselves unworthy of everlasting life, putting the Word of God from them and obstinately resisting the Holy Ghost, whose earnest will it is to bring also them to repentance and faith by means of the Word, Act 13:46; 7:51; Matt. 23:37.

I would like to know what you all think about this? It says that we are saved by God's choice, but those who don't believe, it is thier unbelief that they recive eternal damnation.




Read more: http://old.www.lcms.org/belief/doct-14.html

 

[Rechtgläubig]

It dosen't make sense, but I believe it is what God's Word clearly teaches. I agree with it 100%.

11. However, that many are called and few chosen, Matt. 22, 14, does not mean that God is not willing to save everybody; but the reason is that they either do not at all hear God's Word, but wilfully despise it, stop their ears and harden their hearts, and in this manner foreclose the ordinary way to the Holy Ghost, so that He cannot perform His work in them, or, when they have heard it, make light of it again and do not heed it, for which [that they perish] not God or His election, but their wickedness, is responsible. [2 Pet. 2, 1ff ; Luke 11, 49. 52; Heb. 12, 25f. (Epitome of the Formula of Concord, XI. Election)

 

[FOMWatts<><]

I believe that if one is Chosen by God to be saved then in order for them NOT to be saved they would have to be chosen as children of wrath. Look at Jacob and Esau, before they were born God hated Esau and loved Jacob, this was to show His election and the power of it.


Just my thoughts,

FOM<><

 

[FreeinChrist]

I believe that the verses referring to predestination should be understood as this:
God created the world, predestinating mankind to be called unto salvation. He chose mankind over angels, knowing that man would fall, and He had a plan for their salvation (a plan not offered to angels). He loves all mankind, wants all mankind to be saved, but knows that only some will chose to believe and follow.


As, since the fall, mankind is doomed to wrath without salvation, the idea that He chose only some to receive salvation is also saying that He chose many to stay in wrath. Though many try to say different (saying God chose some for salvation, and they can't not be saved, but those that are not called/saved are 100 % responsible for their own damnation) is to ignore the other side of their own arguement. If God won't let those that He chose to fall into wrath, and they are the only ones who are called, then He is predestinating the rest to damnation.

 

[BarbB]

I do now because it is obvious to me now that God was calling me for probably a year before I was saved. Just little things, but they all add up! It certainly was NOTHING that I did myself. Thank you Father! Thank you Jesus!

 

[Blackhawk]

I would like to know what you all think about this? It says that we are saved by God's choice, but those who don't believe, it is thier unbelief that they recive eternal damnation.




Read more: http://old.www.lcms.org/belief/doct-14.html

I do not see how it makes any sense. If God does not choose one to be saved by default he is also choosing the one, he did not choose for salvaton, to hell. It is like saying that a man is not choosing hell by not choosing to go to heaven. If you reject heaven you embrace hell for there are only two choices.

What is weird about this is that this doctrine seems to go against what I know about Luther's doctrine. I personally do not know exactly what he taught on predestination but he believed in a very deterministic God. interesting.

 

[theseed]

It is possible, if there is a double standard.

 

[Rechtgläubig]

What is weird about this is that this doctrine seems to go against what I know about Luther's doctrine. I personally do not know exactly what he taught on predestination but he believed in a very deterministic God. interesting.

​

God does many things without revealing them to us in His Word; He also wills many things without telling us in His Word that He wills them. In this way He does not want the death of the sinner, namely, according to His Word; but He wants it according to that unsearchable will. But now we must look to the Word and let that unsearchable will be; for we must allow ourselves to be led by the Word, not by that unsearchable will.... It is enough for us just to know that in God there is a certain unsearchable will....​

So you are right in saying: "If God does not want the death of the sinner, the blame must be laid on our will, if we are lost." Right, I say, if you are talking about the preached God, for He wants all men to be saved, since He comes to all with the Word of salvation; and it is the fault of the will that will not receive Him (Matt. 23:37).... But why the divine majesty does not take away this weakness of our will, or change everyone, since it’s not in the power of man anyway, or why God holds man accountable for this, since man can’t be without it—this we must not search out, and even if you would want to search it out diligently, you could never find it out, as Paul says, Rom. 9:20 "Who art thou, that repliest against God?" (Luther’s Sammtliche Schriften, XVIII - 1794,5,6)​

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[PatrickM]

I believe that if one is Chosen by God to be saved then in order for them NOT to be saved they would have to be chosen as children of wrath. Look at Jacob and Esau, before they were born God hated Esau and loved Jacob, this was to show His election and the power of it.


Just my thoughts,

FOM<><

I believe in God's absolute omnipotence. However, there are things God cannot do, such as lie. He will not tempt man with evil. And I believe He will not be contradictory.

Gen 18:25 says, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (NKJV). It appears that God chooses to do what even mere man can see as logical. He will be alogical at times, such as forgive when we can't fathom why (His ways are not our ways), but He accomodates Abraham's inquiry by affirming He will do what is right regarding the destruction of Sodom & Gomorah.

As much as we want to affirm His power, it appears, He will still be true to His own word.

 

[Breetai]

No man is lost because God has predestined him to eternal damnation.

I think that is just an error. It should say eternal salvation, not eternal damnation.

Yes, I agree with the Lutheran view of predestination(I am Lutheran ). Everyone is predestined to recieve Christ's grace. As Newlamb said, "God was calling me...before I was saved.... It certainly was NOTHING that I did myself." Newlamb is predestined to recieve Jesus as his savior, and he did not reject it. Unfortunately, some people do reject the gospel. That is their free will. Even though we are all predestined to go to heaven, some will use their free will to reject the very one whom gave them that free will. How ironic.

This is different from the Calvinist teaching of predestination.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Yes, I agree with the Lutheran view of predestination(I am Lutheran ). Everyone is predestined to recieve Christ's grace. As Newlamb said, "God was calling me...before I was saved.... It certainly was NOTHING that I did myself." Newlamb is predestined to recieve Jesus as his savior, and he did not reject it. Unfortunately, some people do reject the gospel. That is their free will. Even though we are all predestined to go to heaven, some will use their free will to reject the very one whom gave them that free will. How ironic.

This is different from the Calvinist teaching of predestination.

Yes, it is different. The way you stated it above, i think I agree with it.

 

[FOMWatts<><]

I believe in God's absolute omnipotence. However, there are things God cannot do, such as lie. He will not tempt man with evil. And I believe He will not be contradictory.

Gen 18:25 says, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (NKJV). It appears that God chooses to do what even mere man can see as logical. He will be alogical at times, such as forgive when we can't fathom why (His ways are not our ways), but He accomodates Abraham's inquiry by affirming He will do what is right regarding the destruction of Sodom & Gomorah.

As much as we want to affirm His power, it appears, He will still be true to His own word.

To say that God chooses those whom are saved (the Elect) and also say that He does not choose those that are condemned is quite silly in my opinion. He creates each of us with a purpose, a specific purpose, a purpose that WE WILL fulfill. To say that we can resist the call of God is quite arrogant on the part of men. It is impossible to resist the call of God.

To me it is like saying that when sorting through mint and used baseball cards you choose those that you will keep but the one's that you don;t keep jump into the garbage can, it just isn't feasible or sensible.

What about this scripture?

Romans 9:

10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[4] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[5]
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[6] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[7] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[8] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

You see Paul had a great understanding and a refusla to questions God's authority. He didn't quite understand why god chose some to be objects of His wrath and some objects of His mercy, but it is quite clear in this scripture that God clearly chooses both His children and the children of the devil. He knows us that well because HE MADE US.

I am confident that my God is just and He sshows His power to all the earth through the objects of His wrath, I just praise Him that I am an object of His mercy.

Blessings,

FOMWatts<><

 

[BBAS 64]

I think that is just an error. It should say eternal salvation, not eternal damnation.

Yes, I agree with the Lutheran view of predestination(I am Lutheran ). Everyone is predestined to recieve Christ's grace. As Newlamb said, "God was calling me...before I was saved.... It certainly was NOTHING that I did myself." Newlamb is predestined to recieve Jesus as his savior, and he did not reject it. Unfortunately, some people do reject the gospel. That is their free will. Even though we are all predestined to go to heaven, some will use their free will to reject the very one whom gave them that free will. How ironic.

This is different from the Calvinist teaching of predestination.

Thank you Breetai I have allways wondered the was different between the 2 views I can see it clearly.


Peace to u,

BBAS

 

[Breetai]

Glad to help.

 

[PuppyforChrist]

Being Lutheran I would I guess agree with it.

Wow and to think we were just talking about this in Sunday School today.

My Pastor was telling us that from a Lutheran point of view, if we believe and are baptized, we will enter the kingdom of Heaven. Lutherans are baptized as babies, and we will not be fully saved unless we are baptized. Other denominations believe differently however.

Just thought I'd point that out.

 

[PatrickM]

To say that God chooses those whom are saved (the Elect) and also say that He does not choose those that are condemned is quite silly in my opinion.

This is my point exactly. If you espouse the thinking that God pre-elects some to salvation, then you must also, by logical deduction, believe He pre-elects some to eternal damnation.

He creates each of us with a purpose, a specific purpose, a purpose that WE WILL fulfill. To say that we can resist the call of God is quite arrogant on the part of men. It is impossible to resist the call of God.

Are we, then robots? And what about the sins we, Christians, commit during our lifetime? Are these sins part of God's purposes?

Acts 7:51, "You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you."

To me it is like saying that when sorting through mint and used baseball cards you choose those that you will keep but the one's that you don;t keep jump into the garbage can, it just isn't feasible or sensible.

Exactly! I was making the exact same point for those who say God elects some to salvation, but doesn't, then, elect the "unelect" to damnation, it's their own fault. Not logical.

What about this scripture?

Romans 9:

10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[4] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[5]
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[6] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[7] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[8] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Indeed, God does all He purposes. The question is, can we know these purposes? Do the above-referenced verses refer to eternal heaven and hell, or to specific circumstances God wanted to have performed to show a specific purpose? He did not choose Esau to go to hell by chosing Jacob, did He? And Pharoah was, indeed used by God to show to His chosen people His commitment to them. However, in Exodus, Pharoah's heart was hardened towards releasing the Jews, specifically.

You see Paul had a great understanding and a refusla to questions God's authority. He didn't quite understand why god chose some to be objects of His wrath and some objects of His mercy, but it is quite clear in this scripture that God clearly chooses both His children and the children of the devil. He knows us that well because HE MADE US.

By this reasoning, then, was Adam's original sin predetermined by God?

I am confident that my God is just and He sshows His power to all the earth through the objects of His wrath, I just praise Him that I am an object of His mercy.

Amen to the fact we are not objects of His wrath!

 

[FOMWatts<><]

Are we, then robots? And what about the sins we, Christians, commit during our lifetime? Are these sins part of God's purposes?

In a sense yes we are robots, because we are objects created by a creator, we are designed with a purpose and when we fulfill that purpose we are rewarded for a job well done (in the case of the elect). As far as sin being a part of God's purposes, I say YES.

Romans 11:32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

God's purpose for us is to brign glory to Him by coming to Him for our needs and for love. To fulfill this need to love US, He made us all get into the same boat (sin), and He did this so He could see all in thyat boat as clean creatures through His sacrifice. If we were sinless we would still love Him, but we would be much more simple animals and have no complex NEED for Him. The sin in our lives IS a NEED that only God can correct. How else can we be clean in His eyes, but by accepting His sacrifice for that sin.

Indeed, God does all He purposes. The question is, can we know these purposes? Do the above-referenced verses refer to eternal heaven and hell, or to specific circumstances God wanted to have performed to show a specific purpose? He did not choose Esau to go to hell by chosing Jacob, did He? And Pharoah was, indeed used by God to show to His chosen people His commitment to them. However, in Exodus, Pharoah's heart was hardened towards releasing the Jews, specifically.

I believe the verses refer to those God chose for salvation. In the verses before the one's I cited it talks about Israel not necessarily being OF Israel but merely that God had chosen a people to be His own (the Gentiles AS WELL AS the Jews). I believe we know some of these purposes, mainly because He puts them into our hearts and informs us of some of them in His Word. He wants to bring Glory and Honor to Himself, and this will be done by His children.

By this reasoning, then, was Adam's original sin predetermined by God?

Though many will disagree, I say that yes the fall of man was a part of God's plan for creation. He wanted man to love Him because of His great power and the love that He shared with us through His sacrifice on the cross. Our sin gives us a reason to love Him because He loved us so much that He made a way for us to be clean again. If we were sinless I would bet that we would be more like the rest of God's creation. We would probably roam peacefully in fields and eat fruits and vegetables and I doubt we would have technologies as we have today. Who knows, maybe the dog's would be smarter than we were Most of the above stated is just my personal opinion, but I do think that God planned our fall, and even if He did it is pretty much up to Him who stays and who goes. After all when you mold something from clay, isn't it your prerogative to smash it when your done, or even break it once it hardens?

Blessings,

FOMWatts<><

 

[Blackhawk]

Rechtgläubig,

So Luther basically says we should not really specualte too much about his sovereign will because it is beyond what we can really comprehend. right?

 

[Phoebe]

I agree with it too.
I see that we are all chosen for salvation by God, but we do have to choose it. Unbelief condemns.

"So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish." Mt. 18:14

 

[theseed]

Your sig. is incredible!