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MamaZ
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So can you explain to me who you believe are the sinners? Those without the law? Re read your post.
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So can you explain to me who you believe are the sinners? Those without the law? Re read your post.Exodus 20:16
16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
It's clear you have no idea what this commands is about.
Granted I used a broad brush approach but it is hardly a false claim. Without fail sinners embrace above the law tradition specifically so they can continue to practice. Even Jesus said a dog returns to it's vomit. Without regard for God's Law there is no repentance. Without repentance you are a slave to sin. You will return to it...
BTW I wasn't bearing witness at all, but that's another thread altogether...
Look, I just want you people to open your eyes. It would be unloving not to warn you. Some "Christians" will hear, I never knew you, and what distinguishes them is lawlessness.(mathew 7:23)
Almost as if in answer to my statement above, the following falls into my lap today:If James is indeed saying we should obey all 613 commandments of the Law, then I can only conclude that, contrary to what I have always believed up till now, Scripture truly is riddled with contradictions, and I would have to reassess my habit of holding in such high esteem the "paper god" called the Bible.
Oh I see. Those that love do not have to live perfectly. Those that seek to keep the law have to, but love allows you to falter.and with this post we see in full view one of the 10 being broken and even using scripture to back up the sin.
Thou shall not bear false witness. The old addage of do as I say and not as I do comes to mind. This goes to show that the 10 can be a burden because now according to scripture if you break even one then you are guilty of breaking them all. Meaning that if one bears false witness they are also guilty of adulty, murder ect.
Stating that we love sin more than we love God is false witness. They even bear false witness against Christ. In fact they wanted to kill Him because He did not do as they thought He should and felt that He was leading people away from the law and the elders. We love Him because He first loved us and it is His love in us that spurs us to the greatest commandments ever. Love God and neighbor. We love with the Love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the HS. IT is His love that we are to love with and not that of our own, making our works something to boast about. For love never boasts. It is never rude. It is kind and gentle. It believeth all things. Never seeks its own. Love goes beyond do not do this or do that. Love covers a multitude of sins. So if one is going to preach the 10 then one must be able to live them perfectly. Remember the woman caught in adultry? Jesus did not spew you love sin and not me. He said neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more. My question is where is the man who committed the very same sin.
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.The people referred to in Rev 22:14 aren't those who keep the 10 Cs. I think the problem is definition and application of the word commandments. This has ben discussed more than once and just tossed aside. Is the problem a demand to take the same beliefs as you? They simply can't be supported by the NT Scripture which is about the NC. Jesus even said so in Mat 26:28, MK 14:24 and LK 22:20.
1 John 2[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]The "whole" law contains both. James 2:10 tells us what happens if we attempt to live by the whole law and yet stumble in one point.
[/FONT][FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Of course they were. He commanded them, and that should be enough for as long as they were in effect. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Elder, this has been explained to you already. You're repeating yourself. See posts #347 and #419 where I addressed the subject of abolishing previously.[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]I'm not saying we should deliberately do crimes.I'm saying that, in God's estimation (the only estimation that matters), we are not obeying the law at all if we stumble in even one point.
The Law-yers emit a certain pride in their law-keeping, not realizing that they don't keep it at all in God's sight. For the pride issue, take a look at Lionroot's demonstration of that in his post #[/FONT]569[FONT=verdana,sans-serif] where he says, "Those who believe they are above the law will never stop. They love their sin more than they love God." It's that whole patting oneself on the back for being such a good commandment-keeper while the rest of the world is just wallowing in sin. Oy, the drama of it all! [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]What's hysterical about that is that they're not obeying the law at all, because humans will inevitably mess up here and there, which voids their Commandment Keeper status entirely. Again, see James 2:10, a verse which isn't going away anytime soon, sorry. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]521 proves my point. Humans cannot obey the whole law perfectly. 522 indicates to me that the fulfillment of the law is indeed done in Jesus.
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[/FONT]
Love also allows us to forgive those who have faltered. Do I falter. yup I do. Do I go to my Father with my short comings. You bet I do. This is why I would rather have a loving relationship with my Father than a law between an untouchable judge. His love for me is complete and it is not if I do the law but because I am now born of His Spirit and He is my Father.Oh I see. Those that love do not have to live perfectly. Those that seek to keep the law have to, but love allows you to falter.
1 John 2
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
Does this apply only to those who say there is no law?
I don't think you need it. According to you it is the law people that stumble.
IIRC it's in reference to the scribes' lying pen which wrote Talmud among other things. Maybe not that the Pentateuch was handled falsely, but that the scribes falsely interpreted it in their catechesis, Talmud.Almost as if in answer to my statement above, the following falls into my lap today:
"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? (Jeremiah 8:8) :o
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I decided to look in a lexicon for what the original meaning of law in that verse was. Evidently it was referring to the Torah, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch... So, not only do we know that the Law -- whatever it was supposed to be -- has been fulfilled by Christ and therefore abolished, but what is outlined in Scripture as being The Law might not even be accurate, according to Jeremiah 8:8. Things just get curiouser and curiouser ...IIRC it's in reference to the scribes' lying pen which wrote Talmud among other things. Maybe not that the Pentateuch was handled falsely, but that the scribes falsely interpreted it in their catechesis, Talmud.
MamaZ said:We are commanded to love God and Love our neighbors. This is the whole law summed up.
I think the question is would one be following the law if they remembered/kept the sabbath?So when we remember the Sabbath, are we showing love for God, or others?
I thought it has been said through John 14:15 that if you love Me (Jesus) that you keep My commandments. So if one falters they obviously don't love Jesus. Which really means one is obligated to keep the sabbath or some version thereof. So what is the truth?Oh I see. Those that love do not have to live perfectly. Those that seek to keep the law have to, but love allows you to falter.
from scratch said:I think the question is would one be following the law if they remembered/kept the sabbath?
No! Dogs nor sorcery aren't listed in the 10Cs. What does Gal 5:19-21 say? It lists adultery/fornication, murderers, idolatry, witchcraft and I think that heresies would be those that love and maketh a lie. And more that are works of the flesh also known as sin. I didn't find dogs though. So what are dogs?14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Now tell me the truth, is not verse 15 of the ten?
Verse 1 identifies 2 seperate entities both the same God. Both have given commandments. So Whose commandments are we to follow in v 3? Seeing that it is Jesus that is being spoken of from the mention of His name through the end of verse 2 by sentence structure Who do we know by keeping their commandments? I reference John 14:15 and 15:10 same author.1 John 2
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
Does this apply only to those who say there is no law?
I don't think you need it. According to you it is the law people that stumble.
I thought it has been said through John 14:15 that if you love Me (Jesus) that you keep My commandments. So if one falters they obviously don't love Jesus. Which really means one is obligated to keep the sabbath or some version thereof. So what is the truth?
No. I think the wrong question was being asked.Are you evading the question?
Isaiah 4:1
Loaded question. Please inform me.Do you truly not know what the commandments of Jesus are?
from scratch said:No. I think the wrong question was being asked.
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