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We are under the Law of Moses or we are not. Paul teaches "not". Jesus teaches "not".
HOWEVER, this does not mean that the 10 commandments and the other 603 (why do we distinguish?) are not useful for teaching and rebuking and training in righteousness.
HOWEVER, we must understand that the commands of Jesus and the Beatitudes are much more difficult to follow that the Law of Moses ever was.
So what should a doer be doing? Is this a reference to keeping the law? I don't think so. Just read the rest of chapter 2 from verse 12 to the end and one won't find the law even mentioned. In fact even a lie (for full details see in Joshua 2) is called works that justify. How can that be? Now should I also mention Abraham who lied and yet was called righteous? Am I saying that lying is n't sin? NO! I'm asking thought provoking questions for the purpose of discussion.You wrote: "It is Scripture which states, concerning law-keeping, that unless you're doing it perfectly, you're not doing it at all. "
This is what you got out of James? In verse 1:22 he encourages you to be a "doer of the word". In verse 2:9 he talks about you being "convicted by the law as transgressors". So how then do you recon that James desires you to disregard the law. Especially when he returns to the subject of sin and the law.
Nope Galatians 5 doesn't promote keeping the 10 Cs. It very specifically states led by the Spirit and not led by the law. And just so I'm not beat for an improper quote, please note that isn't indended as one. My statement is intended as commentary on the verse. Here is the verse - But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.It absolutely does. None of them say that the ten commandments are abolished. It also contains Mat 5: 17-18 Rev. 22: 14 Rom 5 and 7 and many others that states that the ten commandments are still God's requirements for us to keep by the in dwelling His Holy Spirit. Is that not what Gal. 5 states?
I think I recall a thread saying the 10 Cs were issued to be broken. I think Romans 11:32 really supports that very idea extremely well.Do you regard God's ten commandments "just a set of rules"? God's own commandments to us?
I suppose that rules are meant to be broken.
You know that no christain can claim Christ and violate the ten commandments. That is a fact. How do you then reconcile that with Abolishing then?
Is that what Jesus said? Jesus didn't quote any of the 10 Cs. Could that mean there is a greater commandment than any of the 10 Cs? I think if one checks up on me that they'll find Jesus quoted Deut 6 somehitng.
I have asked already what does under the law mean.Nope Galatians 5 doesn't promote keeping the 10 Cs. It very specifically states led by the Spirit and not led by the law. And just so I'm not beat for an improper quote, please note that isn't indended as one. My statement is intended as commentary on the verse. Here is the verse - But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
My Bible also contains the following in Luke 24:44 - And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning Me. This limits Mat 5:17-18 to prophecies concerning Jesus. Jesus covers end time prophecy in Mat 24.
Why Jesus then exclude those who break it Rev 22:14.I think I recall a thread saying the 10 Cs were issued to be broken. I think Romans 11:32 really supports that very idea extremely well.
Those who believe they are above the law will never stop. They love their sin more than they love God.Elder 111 said:How far are we willing to carry this nonsense?
Nope Galatians 5 doesn't promote keeping the 10 Cs. It very specifically states led by the Spirit and not led by the law. And just so I'm not beat for an improper quote, please note that isn't indended as one. My statement is intended as commentary on the verse. Here is the verse - But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
My Bible also contains the following in Luke 24:44 - And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning Me. This limits Mat 5:17-18 to prophecies concerning Jesus. Jesus covers end time prophecy in Mat 24.
and with this post we see in full view one of the 10 being broken and even using scripture to back up the sin.Those who believe they are above the law will never stop. They love their sin more than they love God.
1 John 5:3
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
Daniel 9:4
4 I prayed to the Lord my God and made confession, saying, "O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments,
The people referred to in Rev 22:14 aren't those who keep the 10 Cs. I think the problem is definition and application of the word commandments. This has ben discussed more than once and just tossed aside. Is the problem a demand to take the same beliefs as you? They simply can't be supported by the NT Scripture which is about the NC. Jesus even said so in Mat 26:28, MK 14:24 and LK 22:20.Why Jesus then exclude those who break it Rev 22:14.
Please note the question being asked here. This is salvation by works and not redemption. This is self trust, not faith in God. We know that none have ever been able to keep the commandments according to Scripture. Check Ps 14:3, 53:3 since Paul hadn't come along to write Romans 3:10, 12, 23. Jesus gave the foolish man the correct answer he ask for. The answer was to do the impossible. Romans 11:32 states that God made the law to charge and show mercy. Yes the 10 Cs were meant to be broken. Name any except Jesus (God) who has kept them in the last 6,000 years. There are none or the Bible promotes a falsehood sinning against itself. This certainly doesn't give me hope that I'll be the first to break th cycle of sin in my flesh. Surely there is one in a million from your church that has succeded. In the civilized world I know of no one who doesn't do business every sabbath.It's very simple from scratch.
The commandment of love is the basis for everything. EVERYTHING! The Ten Commandments are simply those foundational principles of the carrying out of love.
Think of a Temple. A Temple has a foundation, and the core of that foundation is Jesus Christ.
The Ten Commandments are simply the Foundation. The Corner Stone is Jesus (the embodiment of love). Everything is built on this foundation held by love.
Two Commandments of Love (Jesus) > Ten Commandments > All the laws
And Jesus did allude to the Ten Commandments as necessary elsewhere:
"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is] none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Matthew 19:16-18)
Both are the same incident mentioned in Mat 19 above.Mark's version says:
"Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother." (Mark 10:19)
Luke's version says:
"Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother." (Luke 18:20)
By this one doesn't need Jesus. He even said one can secure eternal life without Him by keeping the 10 Cs. Then why did Jesus die? How then can it be claimed that is how one is saved? I see that there must be 2 different ways to salvation. I simply don't buy that. Gal 5:4 says it is one or the other. The law nowhere promises eternal life.It doesn't take a Ph.D, from scratch to see that Jesus is clearly alluding to the Ten Commandments. Jesus is meeting up with this younger ruler for the FIRST time, so this ruler was not even aware of Christ's "laws of love" yet. He knew the Ten Commandments. And Jesus said that if he was to enter life, he needed to KEEP the commandments!
I have been told that such was a given. If this is true then how is thou shalt not murder, lie, steal or commit adultery also a given? So I ask is Jesus' point really keeping theYou may try and argue by saying that Jesus mentioned nothing of the Sabbath. But guess what? He also mentioned nothing about not worshiping idols, or not taking God's name in vain.
I don't think that is what Jesus is saying in the least. See above about an impossible task and read Ps 14:3, 53:3.Since when does Jesus have to quote all 10 commandments to make a point about obedience?
Nope as discussed above.Jesus is clearly revealing the continued importance of the Ten Commandments.
Who are the antinomian Christians you refer to? The Christian is subject to the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. This law makes them free from the law of sin and death. This is the same law mentioned in II Cor 3:7 which is engraved in stone. Is there anything besides the 10 Cs engraved in stone? Who's trying to pull a fast one here?Oh my could I ever get into trouble here?Unfortunately, the Antinomian Christians also like to pull a fast one on us and say "But Jesus didn't die yet! So that's why He said that to the ruler". What absurd thinking.
And just like the rich young ruller one will walk away sorrowful.That's like saying Jesus should have said: "Rich Young Ruler! Keep the commandments...and following these[lists commandments], but no worries, because in about a year, I will fulfill these laws for you, and then you no longer have to keep them!"
The above statement/accusation really adds proof and validity to the claims made. Why can't I just throw it back at you without getting into trouble?LOL, what absolute lunacy! It just BLOWS my mind how Christians can continue to rationalize their way of having to keep all 10 Commandments.
Nope I stand on Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:6-12 and Jesus testimony in Mat 26:28, MK 14:24 and LK 22:20.This is part of prophecy!
Just think from scratch, you are fulfilling prophecy, because this battle that we are having right now is part of the great controversy between good and evil. The Devil is deluding Christians into learning the arts of how to distort the scriptures so that the Devil will have them ready to muster ALL the energy on God's last-day people who love God, keep His commandments, and have the faith of Jesus. And this includes keeping the Sabbath.
LK 16:16, Gal 3:19, Jer 31:31-34. I'd be very careful who I was saying destroys God's law. None of the verses I cited give credit to my enemy, satan.Satan's NUMBER ONE GOAL has been to destroy God's Law. And He has deluded MULTITUDES into thinking that the Ten Commandments have been abolished.
Er well what came out of the tabernacle of the testimony that was opened? The stone tablets? How bout 7 angels. Sure sounds like angels living in the ark of the covenant if that is what you wish to say is being referred to in 15:5.Dare I say just what destination awaits such individuals who wish to destroy God's eternal law, for which the original copy of these Tables reside in the Ark of God's Testament in Heaven: Revelation 11:19; 15:5.
How many times must I answer this? I have given the definitions of the word under which support my simple statement usually found in ( ) as subject or obligated to. All lingusitic reference material agrees with that statement.I have asked already what does under the law mean.
Why is this? Isn't keeping the sabbath a requirement of the law? How isn't that keeping the law? Where is it a requirement in the NT/NC?It is not reasonable to accept that under the law means keeping the law.
What then is a Christian? Wouldn't that mean that those who don't keep the sabbath aren't Christian? Isn't that an obligation to the law?If I am not required to keep the law then I should be able to have another God. Do not tell me that I can not do that as a christian and still tell me that I am not suppose the keep the commandments. There is something absolutely wrong with that.
It comes back to a definition and application problem for me. I think the cited Scripture is misused.Why Jesus then exclude those who break it Rev 22:14.
Please read all of 5 - Galatians 5 that is.Why sinners be destroyed? For not having faith in Jesus or for breaking His law?
The logic I have seen here can only come from deluded persons. If I say that you can steal murder or forget God you say no. Yet you tell me that the commands that uphold such is removed. How on earth can that make sense? It either is or it is not.
me!! John 5:24 I won't be standing before God over my sins. Notice I didn't need Paul and referred to the words of Jesus my Saviour/Redeemer who purchased me with His own blood Eph 1:14. My name is written in the Book of Life. It will be a roll call judgement because God sees Jesus when He looks at me. Ah such wonderful eye glasses!!Who here would stand before God and escape judgment with this? Who seriously believe that?
Is it OK to mock the truth?Father this is my child, he believes in Me. He believes that My law that say thou shall not kill is abolished, but he is OK. This one killed He should be burnt to death. He had no regard for my law. Oops I forgot I abolished the law. Everybody come in, sorry got confused for a moment.
How far are we willing to carry this nonsense?
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]The "whole" law contains both. James 2:10 tells us what happens if we attempt to live by the whole law and yet stumble in one point.[FONT=verdana,sans-serif] I am not discussing 613 laws. I am dealing with the 10 commandments. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Of course they were. He commanded them, and that should be enough for as long as they were in effect. [/FONT][FONT=verdana,sans-serif]The 10 commandments were not treated the same as the other laws by God. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Elder, this has been explained to you already. You're repeating yourself. See posts #347 and #419 where I addressed the subject of abolishing previously.[/FONT][FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Why should we? Should we lie. 10 Should we steal? 10 should we have another God? 10. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif] Explain to me how we can keep these as christian and say the 10 are abolished. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]I'm not saying we should deliberately do crimes.[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]We should violate them, you should never another person for doing wrong. never! For there is no standard of right doing without the law.[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]521 proves my point. Humans cannot obey the whole law perfectly. 522 indicates to me that the fulfillment of the law is indeed done in Jesus.What is your reply to #521 and 522
Please note the question being asked here. This is salvation by works and not redemption. This is self trust, not faith in God. We know that none have ever been able to keep the commandments according to Scripture. Check Ps 14:3, 53:3 since Paul hadn't come along to write Romans 3:10, 12, 23. Jesus gave the foolish man the correct answer he ask for. The answer was to do the impossible. Romans 11:32 states that God made the law to charge and show mercy.
Yes the 10 Cs were meant to be broken. Name any except Jesus (God) who has kept them in the last 6,000 years.
There are none or the Bible promotes a falsehood sinning against itself. This certainly doesn't give me hope that I'll be the first to break th cycle of sin in my flesh. Surely there is one in a million from your church that has succeded. In the civilized world I know of no one who doesn't do business every sabbath.Both are the same incident mentioned in Mat 19 above.By this one doesn't need Jesus. He even said one can secure eternal life without Him by keeping the 10 Cs. Then why did Jesus die? How then can it be claimed that is how one is saved? I see that there must be 2 different ways to salvation. I simply don't buy that. Gal 5:4 says it is one or the other. The law nowhere promises eternal life.I have been told that such was a given. If this is true then how is thou shalt not murder, lie, steal or commit adultery also a given? So I ask is Jesus' point really keeping the
law? Or is Jesus saying there is nothing you can do to secure eternal life through any effort of your own.
Certainly not what Jesus told Nicodemus, is it? Nicodemus had a different atitude. Are the Gospels reliable? I think so!! Do they conflict? I could never agree to such and atrocious statement. I don't think that is what Jesus is saying in the least. See above about an impossible task and read Ps 14:3, 53:3.Nope as discussed above.Who are the antinomian Christians you refer to? The Christian is subject to the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. This law makes them free from the law of sin and death. This is the same law mentioned in II Cor 3:7 which is engraved in stone. Is there anything besides the 10 Cs engraved in stone? Who's trying to pull a fast one here?Oh my could I ever get into trouble here?And just like the rich young ruller one will walk away sorrowful.The above statement/accusation really adds proof and validity to the claims made. Why can't I just throw it back at you without getting into trouble?Nope I stand on Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:6-12 and Jesus testimony in Mat 26:28, MK 14:24 and LK 22:20. LK 16:16, Gal 3:19, Jer 31:31-34. I'd be very careful who I was saying destroys God's law. None of the verses I cited give credit to my enemy, satan.Er well what came out of the tabernacle of the testimony that was opened? The stone tablets? How bout 7 angels. Sure sounds like angels living in the ark of the covenant if that is what you wish to say is being referred to in 15:5.
MamaZ said:and with this post we see in full view one of the 10 being broken and even using scripture to back up the sin.
Thou shall not bear false witness.
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