Do you agree that christians should keep the 10 Commandments? (2)

11822 · Apr 28, 2011

The author of this psalm who lived under the Old Covenant seems to understand Gods law even before Jesus was born and before Jesus fulfilled the law

Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
Ps 51:2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
Ps 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
Ps 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
Ps 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Ps 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Ps 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Ps 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
Ps 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Ps 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Ps 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Ps 51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
Ps 51:14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
Ps 51:15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
Ps 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Ps 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Ps 51:18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
Ps 51:19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

from scratch · Apr 28, 2011

Lysimachus said:
This is a well-written, and powerfully moving post Elder 111. You've helped to crystallize the concept for me. Thank you for sharing!

In addition to that, I might remind the readers of some additional points. I wrote the following sometime ago in a blog of mine:

Problem #1) Those of us who strongly believe in upholding ALL Ten Commandments in the New Covenant age wholeheartedly believe that the Old Covenant is completely done away with. It is old, vanished away, and completely abolished and replaced by the New Covenant. To this we have no question, as Hebrews 8:13 is clear on this matter. However, we do not believe the laws themselves engraved in the Tables of the Covenant carry over with this abolishment, and we shall see why below.

Our difference is not regarding whether the Old Covenant has been abolished or not. That is not our problem. Our problem lies in the fact as to whether the Moral Ten Commandments Law was abolished with the Old Covenant. We believe that the New Covenant promise in Jeremiah 31:31-33 establishes that the same Moral Laws that were given at Sinai are to be written in the hearts of of New Testament believers by God Himself through the Holy Spirit, and we will keep all 10 of them out of love in the spirit and in truth through the merits of Christ's redemption and Priesthood, and not of the letter. That is the difference. The laws have not changed, but the same laws have changed in their location--from tables of stone to tables of the heartand that is, only if we let Him do it. To obey them by the letter is to rely on our own human self-sufficiency. To obey them in spirit and in truth is to rely on the merits of Christ as He makes us "perfect in every good work to do his will, working in us that which is wellpleasing in his sight." (Hebrews 13:21) and "working in us both to will and do of his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

Most Christians today mistake the "Ten Commandments" for being the "Old Covenant". But a careful exegesis of scripture does not allow for this interpretation, and we shall see why:

The Ten Commandments were only the basis of the Covenant (agreement), but not the agreement itself. It's impossible to say a law is the same thing as a covenant. It is simply a set-of-rules for which the covenant is established on. A covenant is a mutual "agreement", a "pact", a "promise", a "contract" made between two parties concerning the words written in a law. But the reason why the covenant was abolished was because it was "faulty" (See Hebrews 8:7), but it was not the Moral Ten Commandment Law that was faulty, it was with "them" (verse 8 ), the Israelites, in their failure to keep them by not relying on the merits of Jehovah working in them. However, according to the scriptures, the Law of God was "perfect, converting the soul" (Psalms 19:7), and Paul declares the law and commandment "holy, just, and good" (Romans 7:12). How can the law be holy, just, and good and yet faulty at the same time? Obviously Paul is speaking of a different law, otherwise he would be contradicting himself in Hebrews 7:18,19 (relating to the earthly priesthood in the Old Covenant) and Colossians 2:14-17. Paul also says "We know that the the law is spiritual" (Romans 7:14) Why would one who is spiritual find fault with and oppose that which is spiritual? In Romans 8:4 he states: "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us." Here he is declaring the law to be "righteous". Remember, the New Covenant is this: "I will put my laws into their mind and write them in their hearts" (Hebrews 8:10). That which is spiritual has to do with the heart. If it does not go out of the head into the heart, it is legalism. Since Paul is quoting Jeremiah 31:33, we know that it is the same Ten Commandment law existing in the Old Testament. The law of Ten Commandments has not changed, but the transfer of location has--from the tables of stone to the tables of the heart. Now it can make perfect sense when Paul said that it is "the carnal mind" that "is not subject to the law of God" (Romans 8:7). There is no such thing as a carnal mind being in agreement with that which is spiritual. Anyone that rejects the commandments of God is trying to get them out of the way to justify his transgression of one or all of them is badly infected with carnality, and "to be carnally minded is death" (Romans 8:6). Only the spiritual mind is subject to God's law.

Therefore, we are left with no choice to conclude that if the Moral Law is perfect but the Covenant is faulty, it is impossible for the Moral Law to get blotted out with it. It is the "old promise"...meaning "faulty agreement" of the children of Israel to keep it rightfully that was abolished, not the Ten Commandments themselves. One could say "the OLD Agreement vanished". We are now living under a new promise, a new agreement! There was nothing faulty with God's Ten Commandments. Nothing at all. But it was in the arrangement of how the children of Israel promised that was faulty.

Kindly explain how the 4th commandment is moral.

11822 · Apr 28, 2011

Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Elder 111 · Apr 28, 2011

MamaZ said:
scripture tells us the law is the minister of death. Do you drive under 60 just so you do not get a ticket? Is that the motive?

Are you saying that if you seek to keep the law it will kill you? How do you understand it as "the ministry of death"?

Elder 111 · Apr 28, 2011

from scratch said:
It is no longer a requirement as such. It is a desire. Thus the modivation for such has changed to a free will by anyone that will. What is worship that isn't from the heart? It it really worship or ceremony?

Where in the bible do you get the idea that it was not always a free will?
If Adam did not have free will he could not have sinned. Moses was force to worship God? Abraham and Joseph. The pretty, rich woman coming on to him and he had no choice but to run. What are you saying? where do you get that from? Let me know please.
I, as a christian, would not required to serve God alone? I can choose not to and still be saved? I really need an explanation.

Elder 111 · Apr 28, 2011

from scratch said:
IOW one is righteous and has no need of mercy, grace or a Redeemer.

What it means is that one serves the redeemer and reflect His character and love by obeying His Holy 10 Commands.

Elder 111 · Apr 28, 2011

Lysimachus said:
This is a well-written, and powerfully moving post Elder 111. You've helped to crystallize the concept for me. Thank you for sharing!

In addition to that, I might remind the readers of some additional points. I wrote the following sometime ago in a blog of mine:

Problem #1) Those of us who strongly believe in upholding ALL Ten Commandments in the New Covenant age wholeheartedly believe that the Old Covenant is completely done away with. It is old, vanished away, and completely abolished and replaced by the New Covenant. To this we have no question, as Hebrews 8:13 is clear on this matter. However, we do not believe the laws themselves engraved in the Tables of the Covenant carry over with this abolishment, and we shall see why below.

Our difference is not regarding whether the Old Covenant has been abolished or not. That is not our problem. Our problem lies in the fact as to whether the Moral Ten Commandments Law was abolished with the Old Covenant. We believe that the New Covenant promise in Jeremiah 31:31-33 establishes that the same Moral Laws that were given at Sinai are to be written in the hearts of of New Testament believers by God Himself through the Holy Spirit, and we will keep all 10 of them out of love in the spirit and in truth through the merits of Christ's redemption and Priesthood, and not of the letter. That is the difference. The laws have not changed, but the same laws have changed in their location--from tables of stone to tables of the heartand that is, only if we let Him do it. To obey them by the letter is to rely on our own human self-sufficiency. To obey them in spirit and in truth is to rely on the merits of Christ as He makes us "perfect in every good work to do his will, working in us that which is wellpleasing in his sight." (Hebrews 13:21) and "working in us both to will and do of his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

Most Christians today mistake the "Ten Commandments" for being the "Old Covenant". But a careful exegesis of scripture does not allow for this interpretation, and we shall see why:

The Ten Commandments were only the basis of the Covenant (agreement), but not the agreement itself. It's impossible to say a law is the same thing as a covenant. It is simply a set-of-rules for which the covenant is established on. A covenant is a mutual "agreement", a "pact", a "promise", a "contract" made between two parties concerning the words written in a law. But the reason why the covenant was abolished was because it was "faulty" (See Hebrews 8:7), but it was not the Moral Ten Commandment Law that was faulty, it was with "them" (verse 8 ), the Israelites, in their failure to keep them by not relying on the merits of Jehovah working in them. However, according to the scriptures, the Law of God was "perfect, converting the soul" (Psalms 19:7), and Paul declares the law and commandment "holy, just, and good" (Romans 7:12). How can the law be holy, just, and good and yet faulty at the same time? Obviously Paul is speaking of a different law, otherwise he would be contradicting himself in Hebrews 7:18,19 (relating to the earthly priesthood in the Old Covenant) and Colossians 2:14-17. Paul also says "We know that the the law is spiritual" (Romans 7:14) Why would one who is spiritual find fault with and oppose that which is spiritual? In Romans 8:4 he states: "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us." Here he is declaring the law to be "righteous". Remember, the New Covenant is this: "I will put my laws into their mind and write them in their hearts" (Hebrews 8:10). That which is spiritual has to do with the heart. If it does not go out of the head into the heart, it is legalism. Since Paul is quoting Jeremiah 31:33, we know that it is the same Ten Commandment law existing in the Old Testament. The law of Ten Commandments has not changed, but the transfer of location has--from the tables of stone to the tables of the heart. Now it can make perfect sense when Paul said that it is "the carnal mind" that "is not subject to the law of God" (Romans 8:7). There is no such thing as a carnal mind being in agreement with that which is spiritual. Anyone that rejects the commandments of God is trying to get them out of the way to justify his transgression of one or all of them is badly infected with carnality, and "to be carnally minded is death" (Romans 8:6). Only the spiritual mind is subject to God's law.

Therefore, we are left with no choice to conclude that if the Moral Law is perfect but the Covenant is faulty, it is impossible for the Moral Law to get blotted out with it. It is the "old promise"...meaning "faulty agreement" of the children of Israel to keep it rightfully that was abolished, not the Ten Commandments themselves. One could say "the OLD Agreement vanished". We are now living under a new promise, a new agreement! There was nothing faulty with God's Ten Commandments. Nothing at all. But it was in the arrangement of how the children of Israel promised that was faulty.

Thank you Too and God bless.

Elder 111 · Apr 28, 2011

Yab Yum said:
"This Commandment about the observance of the Sabbath, on the other hand, considered as to the time appointed for its fulfillment, is not fixed and constant, but changeable, pertaining not so much to mores but to ceremonies. Neither is it a principle of the natural law; we are not instructed by nature to give external worship to God on that day, rather than on any other. And in fact the Sabbath was kept holy only from the time of the liberation of the people of Israel from the bondage of Pharaoh".

Why did God say remember? If something never existed how can I remember it?

MamaZ · Apr 28, 2011

Elder 111 said:
Are you saying that if you seek to keep the law it will kill you? How do you understand it as "the ministry of death"?

The law itself is a minister of death. It does not bring life to one single soul. It was never meant to bring life.

from scratch · Apr 28, 2011

Elder 111 said:
Where in the bible do you get the idea that it was not always a free will?
If Adam did not have free will he could not have sinned. Moses was force to worship God? Abraham and Joseph. The pretty, rich woman coming on to him and he had no choice but to run. What are you saying? where do you get that from? Let me know please.
I, as a christian, would not required to serve God alone? I can choose not to and still be saved? I really need an explanation.

Have you ever read the law? I read in Leviticus that worship is required and not optional. Yep one had a free will in Israel alright obey or die. Disobedience brought death either to the violator or the sacrifice.

Why would a Christian want to serve another God? Didn't they make a choice to do so? some think you can be seen worshipping other gods and say they're a christian. Yeah right.

from scratch · Apr 28, 2011

Elder 111 said:
What it means is that one serves the redeemer and reflect His character and love by obeying His Holy 10 Commands.

If one is obedient how are they refered to? I think they're called righteous - not violators.

from scratch · Apr 28, 2011

Elder 111 said:
Why did God say remember? If something never existed how can I remember it?

My niece sent me a wedding invitation to a future event. How could I remember it according to your idea. It hasn't happened yet.

Elder 111 · Apr 29, 2011

MamaZ said:
The law itself is a minister of death. It does not bring life to one single soul. It was never meant to bring life.

What was it meant to do?

Elder 111 · Apr 29, 2011

from scratch said:
Have you ever read the law? I read in Leviticus that worship is required and not optional. Yep one had a free will in Israel alright obey or die. Disobedience brought death either to the violator or the sacrifice.

Why would a Christian want to serve another God? Didn't they make a choice to do so? some think you can be seen worshipping other gods and say they're a christian. Yeah right.

The same operates now. There is death or life. We obey God or we die is that not so? Was it not so from Adam? The time of death maybe confusing you but all will die and then the second death.
You think that because a man would have been stone to death that he did not have a choice? They still did wickedly, that did not stop them. Going to jail do not stop thieves. We have choices regardless.

Elder 111 · Apr 29, 2011

from scratch said:
If one is obedient how are they refered to? I think they're called righteous - not violators.

Thank you. I agree that those who obey the tenants of the 10 commandments are righteous.

Elder 111 · Apr 29, 2011

from scratch said:
My niece sent me a wedding invitation to a future event. How could I remember it according to your idea. It hasn't happened yet.

You got the invitation. Don't misplace it as we have the commandments.

Elder 111 · Apr 29, 2011

To All
Rom 2
WE keep speaking of faith and the Holy Spirit and excluding the law doing. What refer to as works and legalism.
What shall we be judged by? Faith?
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11For there is no respect of persons with God.

We will be judge by our act, deeds, what we have done, if you want to call it works so be it. Jew and Gentle.

12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Just because we claim that there is no law does not place us beyond it's condemnation even as gentles.

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Doer of law? We don't even want to hear so what will become of us?

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Seems like Jeremiah 31:31-34 is fulfilled here and it includes Gentiles.

Here again we have confirmation from the word of God that the 10 commandments is very much our guild and rule of conduct as christians. The question is will we accept.
There is more but we can digest this for now.

MamaZ · Apr 29, 2011

I am not justified by doing the law.

IreneAdler · Apr 29, 2011

I think people over complicate the bible so they can have rules so they feel comfortable instead of relying on God (much like in the old testament in Moses time and in the time of the Pharisees). It's natural for people to want rules (and even in child rearing we're taught children thrive under rules and boundaries). I honestly think it's a throw back to flesh. Even in the garden it was simple and we went and complicated it. I think it's in our nature to overdo everything. **just a commentary on my thoughts this subject and discussion has brought up

Yab Yum · Apr 29, 2011

Elder 111 said:
Why did God say remember? If something never existed how can I remember it?

Why did God make the Israelites to be his chosen people?

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Do you agree that christians should keep the 10 Commandments? (2)

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