Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

amariselle · Jun 13, 2016

Archaeopteryx said:
You continue to say that we have a "choice," even though it's plain to see that we don't. We can't "choose to believe" the Bible's claims. We can't manufacture sincere belief at will.

I chose Jesus. Many Christians here would say the same.

Because of my choice to accept Him as my Saviour, I also make the choice to obey His commands and follow Him. We all have free will to choose or to reject Jesus.

I know I will not convince you otherwise however, and it is not my job to do so. I can only stand firm in my faith. And since this discussion has been going around in circles now, I think it is only fair to move on.

rjs330 · Jun 13, 2016

Jimmy D said:
More accurately Jesus was reported as saying "I am the way the truth and the life, no,man comes to the Father but through me." also, I'm sure that the Son of God would have better punctuation than that.

Actually in the Greek there wasn't any punctuation at all!

But your punctuation comment was funny.[emoji1]

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Archaeopteryx · Jun 13, 2016

amariselle said:
I chose Jesus. Many Christians here would say the same.

Because of my choice to accept Him as my Saviour, I also make the choice to obey His commands and follow Him. We all have free will to choose or to reject Jesus.

We have no more free will in this regard than you have to choose to believe that there is a unicorn grazing in your front yard.

amariselle said:
I know I will not convince you otherwise however, and it is not my job to do so. I can only stand firm in my faith. And since this discussion has been going around in circles now, I think it is only fair to move on.

You make it sound as though standing firm in one's faith is virtuous. Why do you think that?

amariselle · Jun 13, 2016

Archaeopteryx said:
We have no more free will in this regard than you have to choose to believe that there is a unicorn grazing in your front yard.

I have already answered this.

Archaeopteryx said:
You make it sound as though standing firm in one's faith is virtuous. Why do think that?

"I have told you all this so that you may have peace in me. Here on earth you will have many trials and sorrows. But take heart, because I have overcome the world.” (John 16:33)

I have peace in Jesus, not in this world. My hope is in Him, not in myself or my own "virtues."

Archaeopteryx · Jun 13, 2016

amariselle said:
I have already answered this.

Only by repeating what you've already said, but explaining nothing. In fact, you basically already conceded that you were wrong. You couldn't choose to believe in the unicorn.

amariselle said:
"I have told you all this so that you may have peace in me. Here on earth you will have many trials and sorrows. But take heart, because I have overcome the world.” (John 16:33)

I have peace in Jesus, not in this world. My hope is in Him, not in myself or my own "virtues."

You have a penchant for not really answering the questions put to you. My question wasn't about whether you have peace in Jesus, but why you think it is virtuous to "stand firm in faith."

amariselle · Jun 13, 2016

Archaeopteryx said:
Only by repeating what you've already said, but explaining nothing. In fact, you basically already conceded that you were wrong. You couldn't choose to believe in the unicorn.

I said I cannot believe there is a unicorn on my front lawn without evidence. I did not say I am wrong to believe in Jesus. Honestly, I think it is quite silly to compare the Christian faith to a unicorn, but that was what you wished to do, so I went along with you.

Archaeopteryx said:
You have a penchant for not really answering the questions put to you. My question wasn't about whether you have peace in Jesus, but why you think it is virtuous to "stand firm in faith."

I never said it was "virtuous", you did. Actually, I don't think I am "virtuous" at all. I put no such faith in myself.

Archaeopteryx · Jun 13, 2016

amariselle said:
I said I cannot believe there is a unicorn on my front lawn without evidence. I did not say I am wrong to believe in Jesus. Honestly, I think it is quite silly to compare the Christian faith to a unicorn, but that was what you wished to do, so I went along with you.

Yes, you conceded my point: you can't choose to believe it. That's exactly the point!

amariselle said:
I never said it was "virtuous", you did. Actually, I don't think I am "virtuous" at all. I put no such faith in myself.

I never said anything about you being virtuous per se. I was talking about the act of standing firm in your faith. Do you consider that to be virtuous?

amariselle · Jun 13, 2016

Archaeopteryx said:
Yes, you conceded my point: you can't choose to believe it. That's exactly the point!

I conceded only that my belief has been based on evidence, and that the evidence is there for anyone who wants to look at it. It is a choice.

Archaeopteryx said:
I never said anything about you being virtuous per se. I was talking about the act of standing firm in your faith. Do you consider that to be virtuous?

No, I consider it to be obedience to Jesus. He is virtuous. I am no such thing. I am a sinner, saved by grace.

rjs330 · Jun 13, 2016

Archaeopteryx said:
You continue to say that we have a "choice," even though it's plain to see that we don't. We can't "choose to believe" the Bible's claims. We can't manufacture sincere belief at will.

Jesus said "no one can come to the Father unless the fathers draws him." John 6:44

Jon 16:8 Jesus said the Holy Spirit Will convict the world of sin and of Gods righteousness and judgement

Those of is who believe have been drawn by the Father and the Holy Spirit. That was our evidence. We weren't drawn simply because we read the bible with a critical eye. We might have read the bible or we might have heard a preacher or we might have had a friend tell us about Jesus and our need for him. But along with that came the draw, the pull of the Father and we felt the convicting power of the Holy Spirit and we became convinced at that moment that we needed Christ to save us from our sins. We felt the change within. It was evidence to us. That's where the choice comes in. When you feel the pull of the Father and the conviction of the Holy Spirit, at that moment you have a choice to make. Believe or don't believe.

Until that happens you will not believe. Are you really searching to find God or are you searching for reasons not to find God.

Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek,me and you will find me if you seek me with all your heart.

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rjs330 · Jun 13, 2016

Archaeopteryx said:
We have no more free will in this regard than you have to choose to believe that there is a unicorn grazing in your front yard.

You make it sound as though standing firm in one's faith is virtuous. Why do you think that?

I'm not sure what you mean by virtuous but following Christ's teachings to have faith and the apostles teaching on faith is a matter of obedience. We are not virtuous because of our own works, we are righteous because of Christ's work. We strive for obedience putting our trust in Jesus for salvation.

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Cearbhall · Jun 13, 2016

joshua 1 9 said:
Clearly the first covenant was with Adam.

Y-chromosomal Adam lived more than 200k years ago.

joshua 1 9 · Jun 13, 2016

Cearbhall said:
Y-chromosomal Adam lived more than 200k years ago.

It does not matter to me when Y-chromosomal Adam and Mitochondrial Eve lived.
The fact remains that Science uses Bible terms for a reason.

Cearbhall · Jun 13, 2016

joshua 1 9 said:
It does not matter to me when Y-chromosomal Adam and Mitochondrial Eve lived.
The fact remains that Science uses Bible terms for a reason.

Yes: they are culturally understood. Just as I might say "He's no Brad Pitt."

Archaeopteryx · Jun 14, 2016

amariselle said:
I conceded only that my belief has been based on evidence, and that the evidence is there for anyone who wants to look at it. It is a choice.

It is a choice to examine the matter, but it's not a choice to believe. Do you see the difference? You can choose to examine whether there is a unicorn in your front yard, but you can't simply "choose to believe" that there is one.

amariselle said:
No, I consider it to be obedience to Jesus. He is virtuous. I am no such thing. I am a sinner, saved by grace.

Let me put it a different way then: why be obedient to Jesus? Why stand firm in one's faith?

Jimmy D · Jun 14, 2016

rjs330 said:
Actually in the Greek there wasn't any punctuation at all!

But your punctuation comment was funny.[emoji1]

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Sorry rjs, I couldn't resist.

Archaeopteryx · Jun 14, 2016

rjs330 said:
Jesus said "no one can come to the Father unless the fathers draws him." John 6:44

Jon 16:8 Jesus said the Holy Spirit Will convict the world of sin and of Gods righteousness and judgement

Those of is who believe have been drawn by the Father and the Holy Spirit. That was our evidence. We weren't drawn simply because we read the bible with a critical eye. We might have read the bible or we might have heard a preacher or we might have had a friend tell us about Jesus and our need for him. But along with that came the draw, the pull of the Father and we felt the convicting power of the Holy Spirit and we became convinced at that moment that we needed Christ to save us from our sins. We felt the change within. It was evidence to us. That's where the choice comes in. When you feel the pull of the Father and the conviction of the Holy Spirit, at that moment you have a choice to make. Believe or don't believe.

What of those who have never felt this "drawing"? Since you've placed the onus on Yahweh, presumably he is to blame for their damnation for never having drawn on them?

rjs330 said:
Until that happens you will not believe. Are you really searching to find God or are you searching for reasons not to find God.

I am a former Christian, so I did believe. I ceased believing when I found that my religious beliefs were not as well founded as I initially assumed them to be.

rjs330 · Jun 14, 2016

Archaeopteryx said:
What of those who have never felt this "drawing"? Since you've placed the onus on Yahweh, presumably he is to blame for their damnation for never having drawn on them?

I am a former Christian, so I did believe. I ceased believing when I found that my religious beliefs were not as well founded as I initially assumed them to be.

What I find interesting is that Jesus never really defined what that drawing feels like it looks like. I am guessing it is different for different people because we are not all the same. What would work for me would not necessarily work for you. All men will be drawn to the Father at some time in their life. Jesus said If he is lifted up he will draw all men to him. I have no idea when or how it will,happen, but since God is not willing that any should perish and the Holy Spirit convicts all men, then at some point in everyone's life there will be a time when God draws you to himself. At that point you will,have a choice to make.

I will not make a judgment upon you and your experience in becoming a Christian. I have a feeling that your story is an interesting one.

Jesus did say that some would receive with gladness but then the cares of this life would take over their life and they would fall away. The bible says there will be a falling away in the last days. Jesus said that not everyone that has named him Lord will enter the kingdom because they did not do the will of the Father. Those that persevere to the end will be saved.
I have no idea what that drawing would look like for you. Maybe you already had it when you believed but have since walked away from it. I am not your judge. I can only offer thoughts and scriptures in hopes that someday you "feel" the draw again.

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Kylie · Jun 15, 2016

amariselle said:
The problem is we are talking about two completely different kinds of faith here. Science may be great for this life, and technological inventions may be quite integral to saving a physical life, but none of it has any bearing whatsoever on eternal life.

This world and everything in it will pass away, but God and His words will never pass away.

I do not put my faith in human knowledge or discoveries, however much I may appreciate them in this life, my faith is in my Saviour who has saved me and promised me eternal life with Him after this life is over with.

Irrelevant.

If all Human knowledge of science, literature, etc were to vanish - if we were like children growing up, with no one to teach us how things worked or our history, but living with no knowledge other than what we could figure out for ourselves, we would never develop Christianity again. We would develop flight, medicine, electricity, alloys, solar power and all sorts of other stuff again, but we would never recreate any religion that we have today.

Do you deny this?

Kylie · Jun 15, 2016

OldWiseGuy said:
It is natural to do good, just as it is natural to do evil. Didn't our earliest parents eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

Romans 2:14-15

14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another."

You did not answer my question.

If I change my behaviour, am I being led by some spirit, or am I doing it purely for the benefit of others?

Let me give you a real world example. If I see a person fall and hurt themselves, and I drive them to the hospital so that they can get the care they need, am I being led by a spirit, or am I doing it simply to benefit the person who was hurt?

Kylie · Jun 15, 2016

rjs330 said:
And you will,note that in creation God provides all these things,for,man to discover in science and uniquely gave man of all the creation the intellect and desire to discover such things. That why creation shows that God is the creator because none of this could have happened by accident.

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So you assume that God created everything to show that God created everything. Doesn't work that way. If you want me to believe that God created things, you need to prove that he did. You can't just start with it as a presumption.

Try again.

Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

Do you agree or disagree?

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