Eternally Grateful
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they keep changing their storyThe allegation so often repeated by Catholic apologists that there are 20,000 to 30,000 Protestant denominations is simply FALSE.
The Lie of 30000 Protestant Denominations
So, now the number is up to 199,349,297,110?
You were deceived for a year.It is called faith.
I called out to God for weeks. but did not have faith. The moment I called out in faith (as I finally understood) I was saved
I agree. the holy spirit baptized me into christ the moment I trusted in him.
My pastor baptized me in water a year later
Read what I am saying, not what you think about what I am saying.Wrong
Matt 28, they were already disciples before they get baptized (Baptize THEM)
Mark 16:16 does not contradict John at all.and mark 16 is questionable. and totally contradicts john 3, john 4, john 5 and john 6
WRONG. First, it is still Peter speaking, not Paul.I am reading in the greek
repent is 2nd person plural. Peter is addressing everyone, commanding them to repent
Be baptized is third person singular. Paul is only commanding a few select people to be baptized.
Remission of sins AND the gift of the Holy Spirit are BOTH related the same way to both repentance and baptism. There is no difference in the relation between the four parts of that sentence. If you do these two (repent and be baptized) then you will receive these two (forgiveness of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit). If you don't do both of the first, you won't receive either of the second.Gift of the holy spirit goes with the command of repent.
Remission of sin goes with the command to be baptized. hence we have the term unto or for. and must determine what it means,, on account of or in order to recieve.
since the gift of the spirit is already been given, remmision of sin had to have accored first. so by practice. for or unto means on account of.
No I can not help what the translators did.. actually the old english is a little closer but still. do your due dilligence. if it contracts istself. the scripture is not reliable
Yes, and faith REQUIRES action, or faith doesn't really exist. What does Rom 10:9-10 say? It says that the physical action of confession Jesus as Lord with the mouth RESULTS in receiving salvation. This means that the physical action is a prerequisite for receiving salvation; it does not happen without it.Obey him is in faith.
Does every detail of everything have to be included in every verse that mentions it for it to be true? No. Look at the plaque of the charge against Jesus on the cross.He who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already. (john 3)
no mention of water baptism anywhere.
No, water baptism is not a "work of righteousness". How did God save us? He died for us. When did He die for us? While we were yet sinners (Rom 5:8). So Jesus gave His life to save us while we were still His enemies (Rom 5:8-10). We did not earn it. We did not deserve it. But He did it because He loved us. That is the gift that is on the table. Now, to receive it, we must obey Him. It is there for the taking, but we have to lay hold of it through obedient faith. If we don't take hold of it, we don't get the benefit of it. And we can only take hold of it by doing what He says results in our receiving it: repentance (Acts 3:19, Acts 2:38), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (in water)(1 Pet 3:21, Acts 2:38, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27, Acts 22:16).also. Titus 3: Not by works of righteousness which we have done (water baptism is a work of righteousness) but by his mercy he saved us.
We receive His mercy through our faith, and faith is only made complete through works (James 2:22).You want to overrule his mercy with your works. feel free
I am not worried about submersion.I am more worried about who was submerged into christ, his death and his burial. then who is submerged in water. as to should you
Yes, everyone who is not baptized (immersed) into water is not baptized into Christ. Biblical baptism that saves is baptism in water (1 Pet 3:21) and is done by the teacher (Matt 28:19) and received by the disciple (Acts 2:38), and it is done in order to receive forgiveness of sin (Acts 2:38), and results in being born again (John 3:5). It is when the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us (Col 2:11-14) and unites us with Jesus' death and resurrection (Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7), is when we are made pure, holy, spotless, and blameless before God (Eph 5:26-27), and is when we are clothed with Christ and become God's children (Gal 3:26-27).Are you sure that everybody who wasn't submerged under water is not baptised?
then why did you bring it up?I am not worried about submersion.
How can water take us and place us in vital union with Christ.Yes, everyone who is not baptized (immersed) into water is not baptized into Christ.
Context.then why did you bring it up?
Actually no I was not.. My life was changed..You were deceived for a year.
Read what I am sayingRead what I am saying, not what you think about what I am saying.
Matt 28 is Jesus' instruction to His disciples to go make additional disciples and to teach the new disciples everything that Jesus taught to them (and this includes what He was saying at that very instant). Yes, Jesus' disciples at that watched Him ascend into Heaven were already saved at that point. But what Jesus said was that they were to go make more disciples and baptize them into Him. Mark 16:16 (the same event as is in Matt 28) says that those disciples who believe the Gospel AND ARE BAPTIZED will be saved. This is the same baptism as is being discussed in Matt 29:19. The teacher must be the one who does the baptizing (this is not "Spirit baptism).
Yes it does. Because it adds something that John never added. John said he who believes is not condemned. He did not add the word baptized. Mark did. why?Mark 16:16 does not contradict John at all.
lol.. well I meant peter.WRONG. First, it is still Peter speaking, not Paul.
Second, Repent is second person because it is something that the other person has to do.
Be baptized is third person because it is something that the person must receive. You cannot baptize yourself, you must be baptized by the one who taught you.
You right, First the HS baptized you into christ, His death and burial and his body (rom 6, 1 cor 12 and gal 3) then after your sins have been washed you are regenerated. and he enters you.Remission of sins AND the gift of the Holy Spirit are BOTH related the same way to both repentance and baptism. There is no difference in the relation between the four parts of that sentence. If you do these two (repent and be baptized) then you will receive these two (forgiveness of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit). If you don't do both of the first, you won't receive either of the second.
and??The gift of the Spirit had not been received by the listeners. He had only been received by the speakers.
Your teaching a gospel of works. We are saved by grace period.. but it is only recieved by faith. not of works lest anyone should boastYes, and faith REQUIRES action, or faith doesn't really exist. What does Rom 10:9-10 say? It says that the physical action of confession Jesus as Lord with the mouth RESULTS in receiving salvation. This means that the physical action is a prerequisite for receiving salvation; it does not happen without it.
Does every detail of everything have to be included in every verse that mentions it for it to be true? No. Look at the plaque of the charge against Jesus on the cross.
Mark says that it only said "THE KING OF THE JEWS". But John tells us that it said "JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS" in three languages. Mark makes no mention of any languages. Does that make John false? Did John lie because he put more details in than Mark did? No. It just makes Mark's version lacking in some of the details. Just because John 3 doesn't mention some of the details of what is required of the faith that brings salvation, doesn't make the passages that do give those details false.
No, water baptism is not a "work of righteousness". How did God save us? He died for us. When did He die for us? While we were yet sinners (Rom 5:8). So Jesus gave His life to save us while we were still His enemies (Rom 5:8-10). We did not earn it. We did not deserve it. But He did it because He loved us. That is the gift that is on the table. Now, to receive it, we must obey Him. It is there for the taking, but we have to lay hold of it through obedient faith. If we don't take hold of it, we don't get the benefit of it. And we can only take hold of it by doing what He says results in our receiving it: repentance (Acts 3:19, Acts 2:38), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (in water)(1 Pet 3:21, Acts 2:38, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27, Acts 22:16).
We receive His mercy through our faith, and faith is only made complete through works (James 2:22).
please stop being vague. what context was you talking about..Context.
I never said that "believe" (pisteuo) in those passages of Scripture that I cited were merely "mental assent" belief, although in James 2:19, we read that the demons "believe" (same Greek word - pisteuo) "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not "believe" (pisteuo) in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. So, depending on the context, it can at times mean mental assent, as in James 2:19, but believes goes beyond "mental assent" in Acts 16:31. The demons are not saved. Do you understand the difference between merely believing in your "head" and believing in your heart that God raised Him from the dead? (Romans 10:9,10) The demons believe "that it happened" (mental assent belief) and saved believers trust in what happened for salvation. Big difference!Not a single one of these mentions belief in the English connotation of "intellectual assent". Every one of these passages uses the Greek word "pistis" which means "faith". This is not a mental only, intellectual only, head/heart knowledge acceptance of the Gospel. Faith requires action or it is dead (James 2:26). Without action faith (belief) does not really exist. If you don't really believe/have faith, then you don't receive salvation.
The only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony* Confession is already implied or assumed. (Romans 10:8-10)Dan, look at what the plaque that was placed over Jesus' head on the cross said according to Mark 15:26. It says that the plaques said:
"THE KING OF THE JEWS". Nothing more, just "THE KING OF THE JEWS."
Is that the complete truth? For the purposes of this writer and the audience he was speaking to, yes, that was all that needed to be said. But it is not the complete story as we know from John 19:19 which says that the plaque said:
"JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS." and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.
Now, is it "adding to Scripture" to include Jesus' name when we speak of what the plaque said if we are only referencing Mark's account? NO! Because we have other Scriptures that fill in gaps that Mark leaves.
The same is true of the list of verses you gave above. Those passages only mention faith, but they do not tell us what form that faith must take. Passages like Acts 2:38, Rom 10:9-10, Acts 3:19, and others tell us what form faith must take in order to bring us the salvation that God offers.
More bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics.This is exactly what I am saying above, and it applies also to confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism in water in order to receive forgiveness of sin.
The word of faith is in the mouth and heart of believers TOGETHER unto salvation. (Romans 10:8-10) It's not believe unto righteousness today (but are still lost) then confess with your mouth next week and are finally saved next week. You turn the plan of salvation into a 4-step formula that culminates in salvation by water baptism/works.You keep focusing on this, and I have already agreed that they come chronologically together but must come before salvation is received.
I already thoroughly covered this in post #104 and post #109 from the link below:This is where you are wrong. Water baptism does not "follow" salvation, any more than you can be saved while still in your sin. Baptism in water is done "in order that you may receive forgiveness of your sins". It is not done "because you have already received forgiveness of your sins".
I never said that we are saved the moment that we merely believe "mental assent" that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened." Even the demons believe that. Saving faith also includes trust and reliance in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. That is what it means to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Those with saving faith in Christ have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to believe the gospel/place faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. (Acts 11:17,18; 20:21) Two sides to the same coin. Confessing and believing are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) I already thoroughly covered Acts 2:38 with you in post #104 from the link below:Here is where your misinterpretation of what "pistis" means comes into play. We are not saved the moment we give intellectual assent to the truth of the Gospel. We are saved when we exhibit faith in Jesus through repentance (Acts 3:19), confess Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and are baptized into Christ (Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Gal 3:26-27). This is when we are saved, adopted as children of God, and made pure and holy (Eph 5:26-27)
I already gave you the proper interpretation of those verses, but since it does not fit your narrative, you reject it. You need to go back and read post #358 again and apply more exegesis and less eisegesis.Again, that is a wrong interpretation of those verses. Faith without action is dead. There is no faith without action (James 2:20, 22, 24, 26). Action are the soul that gives life to faith (the body). If there is no soul, the body is dead. If there is no action, faith is dead. The dead cannot bring life.
How do you define repentance from sin? Completely stop sinning 24/7? Good luck with that. Your multi-step plan of salvation culminates in salvation by works. The Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. To change one's mind.Ahh, I see what you are getting at. There are many forms of repentance. There is repentance from sin, but there is also repentance from disbelief, repentance from a decision, repentance from following a wrong path, repentance from following a right path, etc. Even God repented of making decisions (Gen 6:6-7, Exo 32:14, etc.). The repentance that comes before belief in the Gospel is disbelief of the Gospel (which the Holy Spirit helps us do). But this is not salvation, it is merely a step in the right direction. Repentance from sin comes after belief in the Gospel.
So, believes unto righteousness/confession is made unto salvation actually means towards salvation, but not saved yet? That is pure eisegesis and I see how you need to twist Romans 10:8-10 in order to make water baptism which "follows" the point of salvation. Compare believes unto righteousness with Romans 4:5-6. You really need to start being honest with these texts.Yes, confession is an expression of our faith THAT LEADS TO RECEIVING SALVATION. This means that the word of faith in our mouth and heart DOES NOT mean that you are saved, but it leads toward being saved.
You remain in denial. Being baptized by one Spirit into one body indicates one is saved.This is evidence of the Spirit of God working in us even before we are saved. But it does not indicate salvation already having been received.
And you are still rejecting the truth.Again? We have already been through this!
The Holy Spirit is the reality and water baptism is the picture of the reality.Yes, being baptized in water is not to clean dirt from our physical bodies. It is to remove sin from our soul (give us a clean conscience), and is done by the Holy Spirit through the power of the resurrection of Jesus. But if we do not receive water baptism, then we do not receive the clean conscience, or have our sins removed by the Holy Spirit.
Greek scholar AT Robertson nailed it but since it does not fit your narrative, you simply reject the truth. It's a shame that you don't listen. Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another.And this explanation of this person shows his personal bias that colors his interpretation. The text clearly places the reception of forgiveness of sin "in baptism", not before baptism.
Baptism is an action performed "out of" faith just like other good works, but baptism is not faith itself.Baptism is an action of faith.
I thoroughly refuted your arguments in post #357.These other verses do not reverse the statement of Jesus that says that we receive salvation in baptism (Mark 16:16), and that we cannot be saved without both the Spirit and water (baptism)(John 3:5).
I already thoroughly refuted your arguments in post #358.As I just stated, and Scripture does also, repeatedly, baptism is an act of faith. Baptism fulfills all these passages that state "justification by faith". As James 2:24 states, "You see that a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone."
False and for the upteenth time, this is signified but not procured in water baptism.Justification occurs DURING being dipped in and out of water (baptism). This is when we put on Christ (Gal 3:26-27). This is when we are made pure and spotless (Eph 5:2-26-27). This is when we have our sins washed away (Acts 22-26). This is when we receive salvation.
We are Spirit baptized into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13) and water baptism signifies this. If one sets out to put on the clothes of a Christian, in water baptism, without first becoming a Christian (child of God through faith), then one becomes an imposter, and is declaring, in baptism, to be what they are not.What does the next verse say? "For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." You are all children of God through faith because you who were baptized INTO Him, have been clothed with Him. If you haven't been baptized into Him, then you haven't been clothed with Him, and your sins haven't been washed away.
You really need to stop twisting the Scriptures. Given the right to become = become children of God. What did John say in 1 John 5:13? Hermeneutics. Also, in Galatians 3:26, we read - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. According to your twist, we would have a contradiction here.Those who believe in Him "have the right to become". It does not say that they ALREADY ARE, but that they CAN BECOME.
The Israelites were not water baptized into the body of Moses, just as believers are not water baptized into the body of Christ. So, baptized into Christ" does not mean water baptized into the body of Christ, as water-salvationists teach. That is only accomplished through Spirit baptism. (1 Corinthians 12:13) Now in what "sense" would a believer be "water baptized into Christ?" In the same "sense" that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses.." (1 Corinthians 10:2)And if you have not been clothed with Christ, then you are not in Christ. You are not His and you have not been born again. The Israelites were not baptized in water into Moses. They were baptized in the pillar of cloud and fire, and in the Red Sea. Different baptism, but same concept.
Rom 6:3 reads , O are you IGNORANT that as many as were BAPTIZO INTO Christ Jesus were BAPTIZED into His DEATH ??Dan, we have been through this over and over. The Greek word "baptisma" is the Greek noun that is the counterpoint for the Greek verb "baptismo". "Baptisma" means "immersion", and "baptismo" means "to immerse".
Further, the Greek "hudor" does not need to be here. There is only one baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:5-6), and that one baptism must include water because 1 Pet 3:21 says that baptism in water (like the Flood) is what saves us today, and the baptism that saves us (Mark 16:16) must be done by the human teacher (Matt 28:19) of the new disciple.
and mark 16 is questionable. and totally contradicts john 3, john 4, john 5 and john 6
Thread conversation context.please stop being vague. what context was you talking about..
So, everything is riding on water baptism according to your theology? Immersed in H20 or condemned according to you? That would render the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ IN-sufficient to save. Yet Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed.Yes, everyone who is not baptized (immersed) into water is not baptized into Christ. Biblical baptism that saves is baptism in water (1 Pet 3:21) and is done by the teacher (Matt 28:19) and received by the disciple (Acts 2:38), and it is done in order to receive forgiveness of sin (Acts 2:38), and results in being born again (John 3:5). It is when the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us (Col 2:11-14) and unites us with Jesus' death and resurrection (Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7), is when we are made pure, holy, spotless, and blameless before God (Eph 5:26-27), and is when we are clothed with Christ and become God's children (Gal 3:26-27).
Not just water but also the amount of water.So, everything is riding on water baptism according to your theology?
So, everything is riding on water baptism according to your theology? Immersed in H20 or condemned according to you? That would render the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ IN-sufficient to save. Yet Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed.
You say that as if it were a halo of reliability!This is the 1881 Revised Version NT
That is a defeatist attitude, and it is not taught in the Bible. If what you have is the truth, it matters not what others think of you. You would have the peace that passes understanding.You know,..... a few years back I would have enjoyed spending a portion of my time explaining my position and understanding on such a subject to such a person as yourself in hopes that you might pick up some of the things I've learned, but over time I also learned that a person such as yourself, a traditionalist type Christian, has already written such subjects like this off as completely unnecessary.
In other words, I could explain myself till I'm blue in the face, but you would just scoff at my posts and basically spit in my face in the end.
This is why I try not to enter into many debates with you traditionalist types anymore because there is always that battle between scripture and tradition with you guys.
It's better sometimes anyways to just wait till we all die and find out who was right in the end.
Excellent point, we are immersed into Christ. No water involved. and only God can do thisRom 6:3 reads , O are you IGNORANT that as many as were BAPTIZO INTO Christ Jesus were BAPTIZED into His DEATH ??
The Greek word WATER // HUDOR is not in the Greek TEXT neither >
Same reason Arron and his children were washed (baptized) in the jordan.. as a witness he is the one..If WATER BAPTISM is required , why was Jesus BAPTIZED ??
dan p
John did this.Do you think the author of John was trying to teach that salvation is by grace thru faith in Jesus alone, without works?
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