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Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved ?

Jun 26, 2003
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In Acts 19 we read of two baptisms, the one of John and the one of Jesus. Jesus Himself says in John’s gospel that we must be born of water and the spirt to enter the kingdom of God.

Neither baptism is the be all and end all of the Faith. Again in Acts 19 we read that Paul had to remain exhorting and disputing with them and some left the faith. Others tried to cast out demons on their own but were beaten by the demon. Both baptisms are real and a vital part of Christian faith, but they do not take the place of proper catechesis.

In Catholic theology we have water baptism as a rite of initiation into the faith, then the sacrament of confirmation is given to those that profess the faith and have been catechized. Those receive the gifts of the Holy Spirt.

Being born again involves more than faith alone. When one is born again, it is not only faith or by faith it is received, rather Faith, Hope, and Charity, but the greatest of these is Charity aka divine love. 1 Cor 13 says Faith alone is nothing and James 2 says Faith without works is dead

Now I grant you that Catholic theology in the 20th and sometimes in the 21st century is poorly catechized, watered down and minimally implemented. That does not take away from the truth that it conveys
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Obviously you don't know scripture very well.
I went to the trouble of reading Luke 3:21-22 before I replied. Jesus was baptised and the Holy Spirit descended upon him.

Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus was also baptized, and while He was praying, heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased." (Luke 3:21-22 NASB)

And in my reply, here, I didn't need to call your knowledge of holy scripture into question, as you did mine.
I will not debate your claims to personal experiences. It is beyond my experience; I wasn't there and didn't see or hear. I'll stick with Luke 3:21-22 and its testimony to Jesus receiving the Holy Spirit at his baptism.
 
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Dan Perez

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"Our" theology reflects the example of Jesus in scripture. He received the filling of The Holy Spirit after He was water immersed. We follow His example and have the same experience.
What verse are you using and where is the Greek word , IMMERSED , used as I have yet to fnd it ??

Ypur thoughts that verse , Acts 1:5 ??

dan p
 
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ARBITER01

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I needed to call your knowledge of scripture into question because you didn't pay attention very well,....

Luk 3:21 Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that, Jesus also having been baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
Luk 3:22 and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily form, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.


This is the Revised Version of 1881, a very literal critical text version.

Notice it was after Jesus was water immersed that He prayed and The Holy Spirit "then" descended upon Him in bodily form. This did not happen as he was being water immersed, it was a time very shortly after when He prayed.

This is what you said,...

"there's no implied break in time between his baptism and the filling with the Holy Spirit."

When the text absolutely identifies a break between His water Immersion from John and when The Holy Spirit came upon Him and filed Him. So yes, your knowledge of scripture and your ability to pay attention to details in it should be called into question.

I will not debate your claims to personal experiences. It is beyond my experience; I wasn't there and didn't see or hear. I'll stick with Luke 3:21-22 and its testimony to Jesus receiving the Holy Spirit at his baptism.

Again, Jesus did not receive The Holy Spirit at His water immersion according to scripture, it was after. Again, attention to detail.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I needed to call your knowledge of scripture into question because you didn't pay attention very well,....
Why do you persist in personal attacks such as calling my knowledge of scripture into question, it is at best rude of you to do. Anyway here, take a moment to read what is written about Jesus' baptism:
In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. Immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him; and a voice came out of the heavens: "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased." (Mark 1:9-11 NASB)​

Then Jesus *arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him. But John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?" But Jesus answering said to him, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he *permitted Him. After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased." (Matthew 3:13-17 NASB)​
Immediately does not imply some span of time between Jesus' baptism and the reception of the Holy Spirit. So, if Jesus' baptism is to be taken as the example for believers to follow then the expectation must be of an immediate reception of the Holy Spirit following baptism.
This is the Revised Version of 1881, a very literal critical text version.
I think it was published in 1885, but the New Testament may have been published in 1881.
Again, Jesus did not receive The Holy Spirit at His water immersion according to scripture, it was after. Again, attention to detail.
I refer you to Mark 1:9-11 and Matthew 3:13-17.
 
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ARBITER01

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Oh I see, you didn't like Luke's account so now you are trying to utilize the other gospels instead. Notice they both mention how Jesus came up "out of the water" first then He was filled with The Spirit.

Jesus did not receive The Holy Spirit when He was in the water. That was the point that you was trying to fool people with.



Is it?

The examples in scripture of a person receiving The Holy Spirit is the gifts operating through them, ie the gift of tongues or prophesying. Did you have that happen after you were water immersed?

I don't expect anyone here to have had that happen. If Jesus had to pray for the filling of The Holy Spirit first, then we need to also. I had to.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Oh I see, you didn't like Luke's account so now you are trying to utilize the other gospels instead. Notice they both mention how Jesus came up "out of the water" first then He was filled with The Spirit.
I rightly count them all to be inspired by God and to add to our understanding of what happened; what would be the point of restricting our knowledge to the verses in saint Luke's gospel when we know that saints Mark and Matthew write of the same event and add further information from which we may benefit. So, I shall gladly use the scriptures because they are inspired, and they are there.
The examples in scripture of a person receiving The Holy Spirit is the gifts operating through them, ie the gift of tongues or prophesying. Did you have that happen after you were water immersed?
This is not so, our Lord and Saviour did not speak in tongues immediately after receiving the Holy Spirit, and since Jesus is our Lord and we are to follow him, his example is the better way to go. What others who are not our Saviour did is not the example we are called to follow even though their experiences do instruct us and help us to understand the variety that is present in God's grace towards us.
I don't expect anyone here to have had that happen. If Jesus had to pray for the filling of The Holy Spirit first, then we need to also.
Jesus prayed but the passage doesn't teach that Jesus prayed for the gift of tongues and the text doesn't say that Jesus spoke in tongues. That is a presupposition of your Pentecostal/Charismatic theology, and when you seek to apply it to all you are engaging in eisegesis.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Again,..... you don't know scripture (go ahead, be offended).
If you could take the time not to be offensive, then there'd be no cause for office.
seven out of nine, eh? What do you say are the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit under the Old Testament?
And what are the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit under the New Testament?
 
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ARBITER01

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seven out of nine, eh? What do you say are the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit under the Old Testament?
And what are the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit under the New Testament?

You know,..... a few years back I would have enjoyed spending a portion of my time explaining my position and understanding on such a subject to such a person as yourself in hopes that you might pick up some of the things I've learned, but over time I also learned that a person such as yourself, a traditionalist type Christian, has already written such subjects like this off as completely unnecessary.

In other words, I could explain myself till I'm blue in the face, but you would just scoff at my posts and basically spit in my face in the end.

This is why I try not to enter into many debates with you traditionalist types anymore because there is always that battle between scripture and tradition with you guys.

It's better sometimes anyways to just wait till we all die and find out who was right in the end.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Yes it is required, but it is not the whole faith
There is more to it
What do mean by the "whole faith"? Do you have the whole faith.....more so than everybody else? Please educate us here at CF what is the "whole faith". Do you have more of it than others?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I have never counted any gifts in the Old Testament.
In other words, I could explain myself till I'm blue in the face, but you would just scoff at my posts and basically spit in my face in the end.
So far, I have avoided insulting you with gratuitous remarks on your bible knowledge while you haven't extended a similar courtesy to me.
This is why I try not to enter into many debates with you traditionalist types anymore because there is always that battle between scripture and tradition with you guys.
I like tradition (church teaching), and I like scripture too.
It's better sometimes anyways to just wait till we all die and find out who was right in the end.
The testimony of the grave is powerful indeed, eh?
 
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Doug Brents

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Dan, we have been through this over and over. The Greek word "baptisma" is the Greek noun that is the counterpoint for the Greek verb "baptismo". "Baptisma" means "immersion", and "baptismo" means "to immerse".

Further, the Greek "hudor" does not need to be here. There is only one baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:5-6), and that one baptism must include water because 1 Pet 3:21 says that baptism in water (like the Flood) is what saves us today, and the baptism that saves us (Mark 16:16) must be done by the human teacher (Matt 28:19) of the new disciple.
 
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Jun 26, 2003
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What do mean by the "whole faith"? Do you have the whole faith.....more so than everybody else? Please educate us here at CF what is the "whole faith". Do you have more of it than others?
I have what God has given me. Faith, Hope, and Charity. I do not glory myself above others here. You are all God’s children and He loves you very much. You ask a good question. We need to define what the faith is exactly. There seem to be many variations.

The Christian life is a call to mortification of our fleshly desires. Jesus says, if any man come after me, he must deny his very self, take up his cross and begin to follow in my footsteps.

We all know that works do not save us, but one cannot be saved without doing works. I see no where in the Bible where Jesus says just believe in me and do nothing, I got this. So many times I hear people say, we can’t do works, works are useless, it’s faith alone. That sounds good, but it is a deception. It is a change in the faith that was not taught for the 2000 year history of the Church.

Our actions should be spurred on by our love for Christ. We may not reach perfection, but we should aim for it. We do not just take baptism and then remain in our sin as if nothing changes. As Paul says, shall we sin more, so that grace may more abound? God forbid!

When we are born again, we are given the three theological virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity. They are called theological because they come from God alone and cannot be obtained by human effort. These are given at baptism, when we accept the Faith

We get faith to know that God is and is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. Hope that He will complete the work that He has begun in us. Holiness is not a fantasy, it is readily obtainable in this life by and through the grace of God. Finally we get Charity that is a deep love for God and a desire to please Him. We know this because Jesus says, if you love me, keep my commandments.

The faith is a journey, a walk. It is not one and done. Jesus says strive to enter the narrow gate, for narrow is the way, straight is the gate that leads to life. Few there be that find it. The Christian life is beautifully described by St John of the Cross from the 16th century

From a Spiritual Canticle of St John of the Cross


Recognising the mystery hidden within Christ Jesus


Though holy doctors have uncovered many mysteries and wonders, and devout souls have understood them in this earthly condition of ours, yet the greater part still remains to be unfolded by them, and even to be understood by them.


We must then dig deeply in Christ. He is like a rich mine with many pockets containing treasures: however deep we dig we will never find their end or their limit. Indeed, in every pocket new seams of fresh riches are discovered on all sides.


For this reason the apostle Paul said of Christ: In him are hidden all the treasures of the wisdom and knowledge of God. The soul cannot enter into these treasures, nor attain them, unless it first crosses into and enters the thicket of suffering, enduring interior and exterior labours, and unless it first receives from God very many blessings in the intellect and in the senses, and has undergone long spiritual training.


All these are lesser things, disposing the soul for the lofty sanctuary of the knowledge of the mysteries of Christ: this is the highest wisdom attainable in this life.


Would that men might come at last to see that it is quite impossible to reach the thicket of the riches and wisdom of God except by first entering the thicket of much suffering, in such a way that the soul finds there its consolation and desire. The soul that longs for divine wisdom chooses first, and in truth, to enter the thicket of the cross.


Saint Paul therefore urges the Ephesians not to grow weary in the midst of tribulations, but to be steadfast and rooted and grounded in love, so that they may know with all the saints the breadth, the length, the height and the depth – to know what is beyond knowledge, the love of Christ, so as to be filled with all the fullness of God.


The gate that gives entry into these riches of his wisdom is the cross; because it is a narrow gate, while many seek the joys that can be gained through it, it is given to few to desire to pass through it.
 
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Doug Brents

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Not a single one of these mentions belief in the English connotation of "intellectual assent". Every one of these passages uses the Greek word "pistis" which means "faith". This is not a mental only, intellectual only, head/heart knowledge acceptance of the Gospel. Faith requires action or it is dead (James 2:26). Without action faith (belief) does not really exist. If you don't really believe/have faith, then you don't receive salvation.
Dan, look at what the plaque that was placed over Jesus' head on the cross said according to Mark 15:26. It says that the plaques said:
"THE KING OF THE JEWS". Nothing more, just "THE KING OF THE JEWS."
Is that the complete truth? For the purposes of this writer and the audience he was speaking to, yes, that was all that needed to be said. But it is not the complete story as we know from John 19:19 which says that the plaque said:
"JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS." and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.
Now, is it "adding to Scripture" to include Jesus' name when we speak of what the plaque said if we are only referencing Mark's account? NO! Because we have other Scriptures that fill in gaps that Mark leaves.

The same is true of the list of verses you gave above. Those passages only mention faith, but they do not tell us what form that faith must take. Passages like Acts 2:38, Rom 10:9-10, Acts 3:19, and others tell us what form faith must take in order to bring us the salvation that God offers.
This is exactly what I am saying above, and it applies also to confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism in water in order to receive forgiveness of sin.
Also, confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10) so it does not need to be mentioned either.
You keep focusing on this, and I have already agreed that they come chronologically together, but must come before salvation is received.
It's already implied or assumed. Water baptism "follows" salvation through believing in Him. (Acts 10:43-47)
This is where you are wrong. Water baptism does not "follow" salvation, any more than you can be saved while still in your sin. Baptism in water is done "in order that you may receive forgiveness of your sins". It is not done "because you have already received forgiveness of your sins".
The Bible states that we are saved the moment that we believe in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel. (John 3:18; Acts 16:31; Romans 1:16 etc..)
Here is where your misinterpretation of what "pistis" means comes into play. We are not saved the moment we give intellectual assent to the truth of the Gospel. We are saved when we exhibit faith in Jesus through repentance (Acts 3:19), confess Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and are baptized into Christ (Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Gal 3:26-27). This is when we are saved, adopted as children of God, and made pure and holy (Eph 5:26-27)
Again, that is a wrong interpretation of those verses. Faith without action is dead. There is no faith without action (James 2:20, 22, 24, 26). Action are the soul that gives life to faith (the body). If there is no soul, the body is dead. If there is no action, faith is dead. The dead cannot bring life.
Yes, you do, and you even switched the order in post #342.
Ahh, I see what you are getting at. There are many forms of repentance. There is repentance from sin, but there is also repentance from disbelief, repentance from a decision, repentance from following a wrong path, repentance from following a right path, etc. Even God repented of making decisions (Gen 6:6-7, Exo 32:14, etc.). The repentance that comes before belief in the Gospel is disbelief of the Gospel (which the Holy Spirit helps us do). But this is not salvation, it is merely a step in the right direction. Repentance from sin comes after belief in the Gospel.
No worries. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER. (Romans 10:8) Confession is an expression of faith and not a work for salvation.
Yes, confession is an expression of our faith THAT LEADS TO RECEIVING SALVATION. This means that the word of faith in our mouth and heart DOES NOT mean that you are saved, but it leads toward being saved.
1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
This is evidence of the Spirit of God working in us even before we are saved. But it does not indicate salvation already having been received.
Again? We have already been through this!
Yes, being baptized in water is not to clean dirt from our physical bodies. It is to remove sin from our soul (give us a clean conscience), and is done by the Holy Spirit through the power of the resurrection of Jesus. But if we do not receive water baptism, then we do not receive the clean conscience, or have our sins removed by the Holy Spirit.
In regard to Romans 6:3-4, as Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism.
And this explanation of this person shows his personal bias that colors his interpretation. The text clearly places the reception of forgiveness of sin "in baptism", not before baptism.
Baptism is an action of faith. These other verses do not reverse the statement of Jesus that says that we receive salvation in baptism (Mark 16:16), and that we cannot be saved without both the Spirit and water (baptism)(John 3:5).
As I just stated, and Scripture does also, repeatedly, baptism is an act of faith. Baptism fulfills all these passages that state "justification by faith". As James 2:24 states, "You see that a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone."
Justification occurs DURING being dipped in and out of water (baptism). This is when we put on Christ (Gal 3:26-27). This is when we are made pure and spotless (Eph 5:2-26-27). This is when we have our sins washed away (Acts 22-26). This is when we receive salvation.
Galatians 3:26 - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus (Period.) Not through faith and water baptism.
What does the next verse say? "For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." You are all children of God through faith because you who were baptized INTO Him, have been clothed with Him. If you haven't been baptized into Him, then you haven't been clothed with Him, and your sins haven't been washed away.
Those who believe in Him "have the right to become". It does not say that they ALREADY ARE, but that they CAN BECOME.
And if you have not been clothed with Christ, then you are not in Christ. You are not His and you have not been born again. The Israelites were not baptized in water into Moses. They were baptized in the pillar of cloud and fire, and in the Red Sea. Different baptism, but same concept.
So how does one "put on" Christ in baptism? Is it because one becomes a "child of God" through water baptism? NO. Is Paul saying that we become children of God by water baptism as much as children of God by faith in Christ? NO.
Yes, that is exactly what he is saying.
 
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Doug Brents

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"Let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light...put on the Lord Jesus Christ,
No, in order to put on the Armor of God, one must already be clothed with Christ. The Armor of God is something we put on after we are saved. The armor of God is:
The Belt of truth
The Breastplate of righteousness
The Shoes of preparation in the Gospel (training and learning)
The Shield of faith
The Helmet of the salvation we have received
The Sword of the Spirit (Scripture)
These are put on AFTER we have been saved. This is what it means to grow in the Spirit, to grow in our faith. But we do not even qualify to put on any of these until we have already been saved.
Satan is constantly trying to pull those of us who are in Christ back into the world. So we must daily put our armor back on, and daily choose to live in Chirst. This is not a one time thing, but a daily decision to get back into the fight on God's side. We must daily put off the old worldly man, and daily put on the new man of God.
Precisely. You must be a child of God (be "in Chirst") before you are allowed to wear the armor of the King, and putting on the armor of the King does not make you a soldier of the King. But when you are a soldier of the King, you have the right to put on His armor, and be fitted out to fight for the King.
Dan, it is in baptism that we become a true soldier of the King. Remember in "the Three Musketeers" how through the whole movie, D'Artagnan fought for the king, and he did everything he could do to save the kingdom, but it wasn't until the very end of the movie when the king laid a sword on his sholder and made him a knight in the Musketeers. He was not a Musketeer until the ceremony. That is what baptism is for us. It is the ceremony that places us into Christ, and during which the Holy Spirit removes our sins and makes us pure and holy.
So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.
No, it is neither automatic nor is it unwarranted. What does Scripture say is the point at which we are saved (thus born again)? Baptism (1 Pet 3:21) which is where our sins are removed (given a clean conscience) by the working of the Holy Spirit. And so when Jesus says that a person cannot be born again except through both water and the Spirit. It is evident He is talking about the same thing Peter (1 Pet 3:21) and Paul (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14) are talking about.
This is perfectly true. And it is because of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus that baptism has any meaning for us today. But that does not stop it from being central to our salvation. You like to make these seemingly sweeping statements that prove your claim, but they do not stop Scripture from stating clearly that it is in baptism that our salvaiton is received.
Yes, and a person who says they "believe in Jesus" but has not yet received baptism, equally has an empty profession of a dead faith. Their faith is make complete/perfect through the action of obedience to God's command to be baptized "in order to receive" forgiveness of their sins.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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It is called faith.

I called out to God for weeks. but did not have faith. The moment I called out in faith (as I finally understood) I was saved

I agree. the holy spirit baptized me into christ the moment I trusted in him.

My pastor baptized me in water a year later
Wrong again. The baptism in which we are saved requires that man do the baptizing (Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16). It must be in water (1 Pet 3:21).
Wrong

Matt 28, they were already disciples before they get baptized (Baptize THEM)

and mark 16 is questionable. and totally contradicts john 3, john 4, john 5 and john 6
I am reading in the greek

repent is 2nd person plural. Peter is addressing everyone, commanding them to repent

Be baptized is third person singular. Paul is only commanding a few select people to be baptized.

Gift of the holy spirit goes with the command of repent.

Remission of sin goes with the command to be baptized. hence we have the term unto or for. and must determine what it means,, on account of or in order to recieve.

since the gift of the spirit is already been given, remmision of sin had to have accored first. so by practice. for or unto means on account of.

No I can not help what the translators did.. actually the old english is a little closer but still. do your due dilligence. if it contracts istself. the scripture is not reliable


Obey him is in faith.

He who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already. (john 3)

no mention of water baptism anywhere.

also. Titus 3: Not by works of righteousness which we have done (water baptism is a work of righteousness) but by his mercy he saved us.

You want to overrule his mercy with your works. feel free
It is not those who are saved that do what He says.
It is those who do what He says that are saved.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Are you sure that everybody who wasn't submerged under water is not baptised?
I am more worried about who was submerged into christ, his death and his burial. then who is submerged in water. as to should you
Those who have true saving faith will work.

those who do not. well.. kind of hard to do what you asked when you do not have faith.

even demons believe. but they saw God unlike anyone else. and walked away
 
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