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Because God is infinite, the Victim had be offered. The atonement is in the eternal presence of God.....even though it had to happen in time.Since the Victim had not been offered, nor had the Holy Spirit yet descended, of what kind was this remission of sins? …
I quoted Scripture (and not a Baptist sermon) and I properly harmonized Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. Children old enough to repent and believe the gospel may be baptized, but the Bible nowhere states that infants (who are incapable of repenting and believing the gospel) are to be baptized. You interpret Scripture according to Roman Catholic speak. I can see that you and I will never come to an agreement here. You also seem to have an ax to grind with Baptists, so it appears to be a church indoctrination thing going on here.You do not have perfect harmony. Not even close.
We interpret Scripture according to Bible speak....not Baptist speak. And you clearly have Baptist presuppositions. Have you ever read Acts 2:38-39? There are two categories of individuals who are to be baptized. Adults who must repent and their children who can't repent. It is impossible for infants to repent! But they are to be baptized.... This promise is for you and YOUR CHILDREN. Is it possible that Acts 2:39 is probably the most hated verse in Scripture for some baptists (but not all)?
wow, been awhile since I have been here. but there is alot in this quote.You do not have perfect harmony. Not even close.
We interpret Scripture according to Bible speak....not Baptist speak. And you clearly have Baptist presuppositions. Have you ever read Acts 2:38-39? There are two categories of individuals who are to be baptized. Adults who must repent and their children who can't repent. It is impossible for infants to repent! But they are to be baptized.... This promise is for you and YOUR CHILDREN. Is it possible that Acts 2:39 is probably the most hated verse in Scripture for some baptists (but not all)?
John the Baptist was filled with the HS before he was born....he was regenerated. Jeremiah was made also filled with HS from the womb....regeneration. King David trusted God upon his mothers breast (Ps 22:9) and nursing children have the ability to sing God's praise (Matthew 21:14f). But of course, most Baptists don't believe these examples.....they have to explain them away.but the Bible nowhere states that infants (who are incapable of repenting and believing the gospel) are to be baptized.
There are only two places in the NT which 1) contextually teach baptism and 2) instructs the church who can be baptized. Matthew 28:18-20 and Acts 2:38-39. Matthew 28 and Acts 2 are prescriptive texts; all other baptismal texts in the book of Acts are descriptive. In other words, Acts 2 and Mt. 28 are controlling verses (commands) concerning who can be baptized in the NT era.Children old enough to repent and believe the gospel may be baptized,
Will any of these verses penetrate that Pentecostal type of Protisism or whatever of the 199,000 different denominations of the Protestant? Forget the rigamorole and just read the words as they are. If you can't figure it out, I'm afraid I can't help you understands what baptism really means. My personal feeling is that if it was good enough for Jesus and also endorsed by him as what a Christian should do I really can't figure out what else it can mean. The NT is full of endorsement that baptism is a symbol of your introduction to the Christian faith.Chapter and verse please.
That is very true, however, I want to point to my last response which included a quote from the Book of Acts that states how our baptism is connected to Christ;s resurrection.....Again and remember how we must become a witness to the resurrection THROUGH our water baptism.Jesus' baptism is not exactly like Christian baptism of the post Pentecostal era.
John the Baptist clarifies what Jesus' baptism is and what it means. John states, "Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world" just before his baptism. Jesus' baptism marks the point in time when He begins His three year public ministry as the SIN BEARER.
The last time I counted, there were exactly 199,349,297,110 different Protestant denominations. Or approximately 16 denominations per person in the world.Will any of these verses penetrate that Pentecostal type of Protisism or whatever of the 199,000 different denominations of the Protestant?
Absolutely YES!I was just wondering does a person need to be baptized in water in order to be saved ?
Roman Catholics would agree with you but they also teach "infant baptism." What are your views on infant baptism?Absolutely YES!
1 Pet 3:21 - in water baptism the Holy Spirit saves us and gives us a new conscience
Acts 2:38 - repent and be baptized in order to receive forgiveness of sin
Rom 6:1-7 - in baptism we die to sin, are united to Jesus' death and resurrection, and are made new creations
Col 2:11-14 - in baptism our sins are cut from us by the Holy Spirit, we are united to Jesus' death and resurrection
Eph 5:26-27 - in baptism we purified and made holy, and worthy to be the bride of Christ
Gal 3:26-27 - in baptism we are clothed with Christ and made children of God
Mark 16:16 - everyone who believes in Jesus and is baptized will be saved, those who don't believe remain lost (because lost is the default condition of man)
"Infant baptism" is good for only two things: getting an infant wet, and getting them angry (some of the time).Roman Catholics would agree with you but they also teach "infant baptism." What are your views on infant baptism?
At least we agree on that."Infant baptism" is good for only two things: getting an infant wet, and getting them angry (some of the time). So infant baptism is meaningless. If that is the only baptism a person has received, then they have not yet been baptized into Christ.
So you do believe at least some of the truth.At least we agree on that.
I believe all of the truth. Repentance is a change of mind and the new direction of that change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. (Acts 11:18,18; Acts 20:21) Two sides to the same coin. Those who have truly repented believe the gospel and those who believe the gospel have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to believe the gospel.So you do believe at least some of the truth.
This is true, and is on the way toward receiving salvation, but salvation is not yet received just because belief and repentance have been done.I believe all of the truth. Repentance is a change of mind and the new direction of that change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. (Acts 11:18,18; Acts 20:21) Two sides to the same coin. Those who have truly repented believe the gospel and those who believe the gospel have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to believe the gospel.
Again, this is true, and is on the way toward receiving salvation, but salvation is not yet received just because belief and confession have been done.Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is our Lord and Savior.
Water baptism does indeed follow after belief, repentance, and confession, and is the point at which sins are actually removed (1 Pet 3:21, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).Water baptism follows and signifies receiving remission of sins/salvation through believing in Him. (Acts 10:43-47)
Your fixation on the "belief only" verses causes you a blind spot in relation to salvation. You must remember, Dan, that ALL Scripture is equally true at the same time. This means that while John 3:18 does indeed only mention belief, it does not override, overrule, or negate Rom 10:9-10, Acts 3:19, or Acts 2:38, all of which place a human action as a prerequisite for receiving salvation. If you really believe (have faith) then you will do what God says leads to receiving His gift. If you don't do what He says, then you really don't believe.John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Agreed.Infant baptism is unscriptural.
Do these passages of Scripture say that salvation is not yet received when one believes? (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Repentance is implied or assumed because it already took place in the process of choosing to believe. (Acts 3:19; 11:17,18; 20:21)This is true, and is on the way toward receiving salvation, but salvation is not yet received just because belief and repentance have been done.
Romans 10:8-10 says otherwise.Again, this is true, and is on the way toward receiving salvation, but salvation is not yet received just because belief and confession have been done.
Why do you reverse the order of belief and repentance? See the proper order in (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21) The remission of sins is signified but is not procured in water baptism. Which of those verses above say that we are saved by grace through water baptism or that whoever is not water baptized will be condemned? Your eisegesis results in that conclusion. I have already thoroughly explained each of those verses to you before on multiple Christian forum sites, but you prefer your eisegesis instead.Water baptism does indeed follow after belief, repentance, and confession, and is the point at which sins are actually removed (1 Pet 3:21, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).
You have a fixation on your 4-step plan of salvation with your main fixation being on water baptism. Remember that a symbol is not the reality but is a picture of the reality. You seem determined to "add" works to the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) You need to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine instead of patching Scripture together in order to create a works based false gospel.Your fixation on the "belief only" verses causes you a blind spot in relation to salvation. You must remember, Dan, that ALL Scripture is equally true at the same time.
It's not about overriding or negating Scripture but Biblical hermeneutics.This means that while John 3:18 does indeed only mention belief, it does not override, overrule, or negate Rom 10:9-10, Acts 3:19, or Acts 2:38, all of which place a human action as a prerequisite for receiving salvation. If you really believe (have faith) then you will do what God says leads to receiving His gift. If you don't do what He says, then you really don't believe.
Agreed.
Those passages do not state it. But Scripture is additive. If two passages say that different things (repentance, confession, and baptism) lead to one destination (salvation), then even if there is no passage that says so, it is not received until all of them are accomplished, or else the passages that say the excluded action is required become a lie.Do these passages of Scripture say that salvation is not yet received when one believes? (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Repentance is implied or assumed because it already took place in the process of choosing to believe. (Acts 3:19; 11:17,18; 20:21)
I do not reverse the order. Belief and confession, confession and belief are both required BEFORE salvation is received, for both of them RESULT IN salvation being received (the result ALWAYS comes after the condition).Romans 10:8-10 says otherwise.
Why do you reverse the order of belief and repentance? See the proper order in (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21)
No Dan, there is no eisegesis. What does the Word of God say?The remission of sins is signified but is not procured in water baptism. Which of those verses above say that we are saved by grace through water baptism or that whoever is not water baptized will be condemned? Your eisegesis results in that conclusion. I have already thoroughly explained each of those verses to you before on multiple Christian forum sites, but you prefer your eisegesis instead.
Wrong, I have a fixation on Scripture, and the proper understanding of it.You have a fixation on your 4-step plan of salvation with your main fixation being on water baptism.
The Temple in Jerusalem, and the Tabernacle before it, was a symbol of the real thing in Heaven (Heb 8:5). But were the only place in which to worship God (make sacrifices, etc.) for over fourteen hundred years. The symbol can very much be real for as long as it is relevant. There will be no further Testament/Covenant beyond the New Covenant in Jesus' blood, so baptism will not cease to be the point at which we enter into union with Christ until the world ends.Remember that a symbol is not the reality but is a picture of the reality.
To everyone who HAS FAITH (pistis in the Greek). And again, faith is not real if it does not include actions, and specifically the actions that God has said result in receiving His blessing of forgiveness/salvation.You seem determined to "add" works to the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16)
I have perfectly harmonized Scripture with Scripture excluding nothing, negating nothing, and overriding nothing. You, and the others all around the world who teach the "easy believeism", "belief only", "faith only", "get baptized AFTER you are saved" false gospel have not properly harmonized Scripture with Scripture, and do indeed exclude, negate, and override many Scriptures in order to arrive at that false doctrine.It's not about overriding or negating Scripture but Biblical hermeneutics.
When one stands before God on Judgment Day, will God ask, "Were you baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?" Will you be confident when replying, "Lord, I did not get baptized because I was not sure how to do it correctly and if it mattered for salvation."I was just wondering does a person need to be baptized in water in order to be saved ?
add the roman denominations. (Catholic and all the different types or orthodoxies) and thats an awful lotThe last time I counted, there were exactly 199,349,297,110 different Protestant denominations. Or approximately 16 denominations per person in the world.
it is if the person has called out to God. John 3 makes this clear. as does John 6 to name but a fewThis is true, and is on the way toward receiving salvation, but salvation is not yet received just because belief and repentance have been done.
No. This would be a works based Gospel. My salvation is completed when I call out to God and God himself baptizes me into himself. where my sins are washed away (romans 6, 1 cor 12, gal 3 and Col 2 with the spiritual baptism done without handsAgain, this is true, and is on the way toward receiving salvation, but salvation is not yet received just because belief and confession have been done.
Water baptism does indeed follow after belief, repentance, and confession, and is the point at which sins are actually removed (1 Pet 3:21, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).
acts 2: 38 is the most mistranslated verse in scripture.Your fixation on the "belief only" verses causes you a blind spot in relation to salvation. You must remember, Dan, that ALL Scripture is equally true at the same time. This means that while John 3:18 does indeed only mention belief, it does not override, overrule, or negate Rom 10:9-10, Acts 3:19, or Acts 2:38, all of which place a human action as a prerequisite for receiving salvation. If you really believe (have faith) then you will do what God says leads to receiving His gift. If you don't do what He says, then you really don't believe.
Agreed.
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