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Steve, I sympathize with your reaction. The thought of a malicious alien presence in the midst of what we consider the core of our identity is deeply disturbing.It does not logically follow that if our minds are tempted we have the will of a devil in our mind. That seems like a very uhealthy view that could lead to problems. It does, in fact, seem like a very incorrect theology.
Catholic theology teaches that we are free, within the contingencies of our existence, to make decisions. We are free to make a decision about our lives and about God. This is what gives meaning to our existence, to our salvation, and to our relationship with Jesus Christ.
I'm sorry, I couldn't find your explanation of Acts 2:23 in any of that.God never willed us that we do evil. if you need me to I could look for other passages in the scriptures that you do believe are from God to attempt to show that God does not will for us to sin.
sir.15 18-20
[18] For great is the wisdom of the Lord;
he is mighty in power and sees everything;
[19] his eyes are on those who fear him,
and he knows every deed of man.
[20] He has not commanded any one to be ungodly,
and he has not given any one permission to sin.
i know this will most likely not be strong evidence to you because it is a book that is not included in your version of the bible and I doubt I see your view of will clearly enough but do you really think God wills for us to do evil? does it not make more sense that we pick evil and Gods grace uses evil for good? it makes more sense to me that God arranges things in a reactionary way according to our own wills but things get very hard to explain because God sees the entire picture and the best possible arrangement of all our wills together due to us being small and God huge.
where exactly would justice be if we did not have free will? maybe you can explain that part of your quote i underlined or link me to where you explained that?
Steve, I sympathize with your reaction. The thought of a malicious alien presence in the midst of what we consider the core of our identity is deeply disturbing.
One thing that helps keep me on track, is to switch sides of my brain for a second & view these terms in a different but equaly valid perspective. What I mean is, to for the moment. think not of extrinsic identities (demonic), but think of the word "spirit" in the sense of "attitude" & so when we are 'possesed' we are actualy (in this sense) "obsessed" with a bad attitude - to keep it in general terms.
Right now I'm wrestling with some 'inner demons' because everyone is having a great lugh that I got up & got dressed to go to work today. I'll be livin' this down for awhile, I can tell.
Steve, I sympathize with your reaction. The thought of a malicious alien presence in the midst of what we consider the core of our identity is deeply disturbing.
One thing that helps keep me on track, is to switch sides of my brain for a second & view these terms in a different but equaly valid perspective. What I mean is, to for the moment. think not of extrinsic identities (demonic), but think of the word "spirit" in the sense of "attitude" & so when we are 'possesed' we are actualy (in this sense) "obsessed" with a bad attitude - to keep it in general terms.
Right now I'm wrestling with some 'inner demons' because everyone is having a great lugh that I got up & got dressed to go to work today. I'll be livin' this down for awhile, I can tell.
It does not logically follow that if our minds are tempted we have the will of a devil in our mind. That seems like a very uhealthy view that could lead to problems. It does, in fact, seem like a very incorrect theology.
Yes they do have an open logical fallacy hung out for view. No question about that to me. Their claim is, in essence, yes, you can have another entity internally present and tempting, but through our wills we can overcome. Somehow they equate this to 'freedom' of will. That is not the case. Where there are two wills functioning they have to be looked at separately. We can not logically look at the individual and say it is 'just them' there in their will when that is not the factual case.Catholic theology teaches that we are free,
Were our wills the only functioning will you'd have a point. But that is simply not the case.within the contingencies of our existence, to make decisions. We are free to make a decision about our lives and about God. This is what gives meaning to our existence, to our salvation, and to our relationship with Jesus Christ.
Technically I have an even more benign view of temptation. For me that working merely serves as a contrasting agent that forces me to consider the deeper/spiritual aspects of my thought life and decisions.
In short, a servant whom I reign over. But if not mindful, my overlord, and a wicked one at that. A caged tiger can be beneficial to observe. A loose one is entirely different.
s
This is an interesting view of our existential situation.
I'm sorry, I couldn't find your explanation of Acts 2:23 in any of that.
Should I give your response my attention anyway?
Man cannot be free of God's will.
It is a creation of God, therefore it exists by & within, His will.
It either does what He wants or does what He allows.
Therefore, either way, it exists & operates according to His will.
Some might choose to denigrate this arrangement by compoaring us to puppets or robots, but that's because they don't understand how they can still be personaly responsible for anything they do, if all they do is God's will, and they don't understand how it can be God's will that we do wickedness without that making God wicked.
Acts 2:23:Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain
Peter knew it was God's will that He would allow deicide.
The RCC openly acknowledges and publishes their fact on this matter and their fact is identical to my own.
Their determinations from there however do not and can not logically follow.
If there is another functioning will that can and does operate in the arena of internal temptations, then any such wills are categorically 'not alone' and can not therefore be ruled 'free' as the identity factor can not be determined.
We can all also easily see that we all sin and sin is of the devil who tempts and deceives, so in this we are all involved in that mixture. Our personalities are masked by that working agent or agents.
Yes they do have an open logical fallacy hung out for view. No question about that to me. Their claim is, in essence, yes, you can have another entity internally present and tempting, but through our wills we can overcome. Somehow they equate this to 'freedom' of will. That is not the case. Where there are two wills functioning they have to be looked at separately. We can not logically look at the individual and say it is 'just them' there in their will when that is not the factual case.
For example, when Jesus looked at Peter and rebuked Satan, it was Satan being addressed, NOT Peter.
The RCC just hasn't managed to see this fact very well at all. In fact if you read of this account from their perspective it is as if they don't even SEE that it was SATAN in PETER speaking. It's like they are BLIND to the other entity that was IN PETER.
It's amazing to me how so many scholars in their system are just blinded to this matter and continue to be so.
Were our wills the only functioning will you'd have a point. But that is simply not the case.
Paul had evil present with him, a messenger of Satan in his flesh and was the chief of sinners post salvation. IF we see that front line Apostles are fought more viciously INTERNALLY by our mutual adversary it is quite easy to see how Paul could make the claim of being the chief of sinners because our ADVERSARY was on his own mind continually trying to defray him from his Divinely Appointed works.
And that is HOW Paul arrived at that conclusion for himself.
Now, go find any Pope in the RCC system who could stand in that mans shoes.
THERE ARE NONE and there never will be because the 'requirement' in such men is to speak HONESTLY exactly on this particular subject.
Any believer who does will enter the mystery of faith in more dynamic ways than most will care to be brought into.
enjoy!
s
You might understand that my sight here contains ZERO harm or blame to you as a believer. I believe you are saved to the uttermost. I do not count sins of any sort against a believer.
Why?
Because I see the fact of the other party.
It is a very very FREEING sight allowing me to love all of my fellow believers AND having a sound place to place judgments that is not upon them.
And I know you have perhaps sensed this in our engagements from time to time. You should sense both love and SNARL. Now you know the SNARL might not be directed to YOU as a believer.
s
I liked your other post better, which did not insult the Pope or Catholicism. I like it when you post in a serious and thoughtful manner.
Jesus was literally speaking to Satan. What in the world are you thinking?Whether Jesus was speaking literally or metaphorically to Peter when he addressed him as Satan, could probably be debated. It would be an interesting subject for a paper or article.
Well, a believer might say to themselves, if it happened to Peter it sure can happen to me!If Satan spoke from Peter's mind in that situation, then we would have to ask, Does that mean we can universalize that account and say that we are all structured as having an evil entity in our mind?
And that is merely something that works in other people to get the OBVIOUS OTHER PARTY off the table of fact and blame only MAN, which is, in essence what the RCC does. That is why I can't stomach much of their theology. It's too blind for my liking.That would be one way of looking at it, but then it could be a metaphorical way of explaining our own latent (or active, in some cases) tendencies towards sin.
And again, that is just denying the obvious other party.It occurs to me that Peter's response might have been a natural human response and that it was Jesus who was tempted by those words, tempted to avoid dying on the cross.
Rom8:28:And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.ahhh. I did not see it as explaining the underlined part.
how exactly does that prove your point? I see it more as God doing things for the good of us all, him knowing what our wills will do. and he still does what he does, I see God interacting with us in the best way possible while we still obtain complete free will. I find free will vastly hard to explain. for instance God put me in this part of the age instead of where I wanted/desire to be ( time of Jesus flesh body on earth ) , due to who i am and who everyone else is and due to God perfectly and justly putting me where I am at ( who knows why else God did what He did, He is to hard to grasp ) . ofc i believe I existed before I was born of woman, it really adds a lot of complexity of who I am and who God is. and it will give you a different view of who God is. and of reality in general.
But if not mindful, my overlord, and a wicked one at that. A caged tiger can be beneficial to observe. A loose one is entirely different.
For the record that would be an 'official heresy' by most standards including every branch of orthodoxy and protestantism. At least we know where you are at.
You are welcome to continue with the bizarre little dance and not have an answer one way or the other.
If you do get around to actually having a fact about it, you are welcome to state it.
If you do see that the tempter does tempt people IN MIND then you might also see the logical fallacy of freewill....
because....
Mankinds will would not be 'categorically' alone.
Is this simple enough for you yet?
s
If it was me saying I'd rebuke myself...
[/i]Captivity is quite beyond the subject matter put in view.
No, it can never be to my mind. Every unbeliever is a captive of Satan even though he is unconscious of it and would deny it if presented with scripture saying it is so. Satan usurped God in tempting man to sin...and thus "all have sinned" and fallen short. Christ came "to set the captive free".
A believer DOES have temptation of the tempter, period.This does not equate to 'control' or 'captivity' or 'possession.'
Amen to both statements.
It does mean that there is another ACTIVE WILL within the will of man including that of believers in the actions of temptation of the tempter within.
No, cannot agree. Scripture says we cannot serve two masters. If the believer has the Spirit of God dwelling "within", Satan cannot dwell "within". His temptations are from without but I have that old nature ""inside" that truly delights in those very temptations. That's why you and I are instructed to "resist the devil". But, no, believers do not have "another active will" within.
If you are saying a believer is never tempted by the tempter I'll take a pass on that drift. And I don't think C.S. Lewis tried to make that case either.
No need to pass...I agree totally that the tempter is very actiuve with me...and every day...and I think C.S. Lewis would agree.
It is not so much a ceremony as a striving to push away from those things in the rebellious nature that hinder the indwelling of God powerfully.
OK, I can agree with that...it can only be attained by reckoning myself dead to the old man and alive unto God..."that Christ may dwell in your hearts" is the way Paul put it I believe.
Christ is anointing and this comes by an increase in faith with belief in God rather than self as the last step. His Love is apparent in the nature of Jesus. This can not be comprehended in the natural mind and only becomes apparent by an unfolding. It is a battle in the mind.
Again I agree. There's nothing ceremonial about it...occupation with Christ and His love for me rather than my love (or lack thereof) for Him I believe to be the key..."let this mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus" comes to mind.
Are you actually admitting that it is a scriptural fact that the tempter tempts in mind?
heh heh heh. Why don't you just SAY SO then?
Why bother straining with me over this FACT?
It either happens or it doesn't.
yeah or nay Arcoe?
s
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