Are you saying that there is a difference between having a patron Saint in Heaven intercede for you versus a non-patron saint in Heaven intercede for you?
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There is a difference between having a patron Saint and any Saint interceding for us in Heaven.
Presentist said:Are you saying that there is a difference between having a patron Saint in Heaven intercede for you versus a non-patron saint in Heaven intercede for you?
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I think St. Jude is the Patron Saint of lost causes and St. Christopher of travelers.
Will you have an equally safe travel if you pray to St. Jude for your trip instead of praying to St. Christopher?
In other words, is there a benefit (a more likely positive outcome) in praying to the patron saint of your activity, profession, locality, etc. as opposed to praying to just any saint?
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St Monica (mother of St Augustine) prayed for years, constantly for the conversion of her son who was a philanderer. He eventually converted. She is the Patron Saint of Conversion, we trust she will pray ceaselessy for someone who we want to convert.
Is it any better to pray to St. Monica than to any other mother who prayed for their child that converted? There must be millions of those.
It would seem that all of those mothers are equally "skilled". Why pray to St. Monica?
In fact, it would seem that a mother who only had to pray once for their child (who then converted) would be "more skilled" than the mother that took years of prayers before God responded and converted their child.
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The difference between St Monica and earthly mothers is that earthly mothers still sin and they are not in the direct presence of God. St Monica doesn't sin anymore and she is cleansed and in the direct presence of God therefore her prayers are more efficacious.
Presentist said:I am not talking about earthly mothers. I am asking why not pray to one of the other millions of mothers in Heaven who while on earth prayed for their child to be converted (and the child was converted)?
And, why not pray to a mother in Heaven who only had to pray once for the convertion of her child in order for God to answer her prayer, instead of praying to a mother who required much prayer before God answered her prayer?
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It is Catholic tradition to pray to Saints that are canonized by the Church.
I understant the Catholic idea that we can ask Saints in Heaven to pray for us because we would ask Christians on earth to pray for us.
But what is the reason to only pray to certain Saints in Heaven. We do not only ask certain Christians on earth to pray for us.
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Some Christians seek out those who have an especially close walk with God to ask for their advice and prayers.
Are you saying that you do not make general requests for prayer? Rather, that you hand-pick who you want to pray for you?
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St Monica is known to us because of tradition. The millions of "others" are not know to us all, but am sure if someone was asking their mother in Heaven to pray for them, her prayer would be just as effectual.Is it any better to pray to St. Monica than to any other mother who prayed for their child that converted? There must be millions of those.
Assuming all "those mothers" are in Heaven, then their prayers for us would indeed be "skilled". But how would we know about "all of those mothers"? Generally we all ask people to pray for us that we know about, people we know or at least are acquainted with somehow.It would seem that all of those mothers are equally "skilled". Why pray to St. Monica?
if am being asked to make such a determination one would have to place oneself in God's shoes or assume God ways to be the same as one's own. Am afraid I do not see God or myself that way.In fact, it would seem that a mother who only had to pray once for their child (who then converted) would be "more skilled" than the mother that took years of prayers before God responded and converted their child.
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I am not talking about earthly mothers. I am asking why not pray to one of the other millions of mothers in Heaven who while on earth prayed for their child to be converted (and the child was converted)?
And, why not pray to a mother in Heaven who only had to pray once for the convertion of her child in order for God to answer her prayer, instead of praying to a mother who required much prayer before God answered her prayer?
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not all dead Christians achieve Sainthood
I would say "all those mothers" are indeed included 24 hours a day, 365 days a year in Church Masses all over the world.
I grew up in the Philippines where it was common for someone to have their vehicle adorned with numerous statues. But they always seemed to be statues of the same "patron" saints.
Are you saying that they could just as well have a statue of any mother, or any deceased christian in Heaven?
It appears that your hatred for Catholicism stems more from a cultural aversion more than any honest theological or Biblical arguments.
Presentist said:It is not a "hatred." It is probably similar to your feelings towards Mormons, etc. You just think they are "wrong."
Growing up in the Philippines, when I would read the Bible about the disciples and Christians in the beginning of the Church, and then saw the Catholic processions with young men whipping themselves to make them bleed, and saw (on TV) the devout crucifying themselves (just short of death), and many other strange "traditions" (with no biblical support whatsoever), I had to come to the conclusion that they were "wrong."
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And yet, more humility and asceticism is much needed in the west, don't you think?
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