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Do The Reformed and Puritans Hate Fundamentalism?

Nov 17, 2010
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This is a very serious question. Please prayerfully answer.
I am a lifelong Baptist, starting in the SBC as a child and going through both Freewill and Independent Fundamentalism (KJV Only). For the last two years , I have been Reformed, and it has been as if a light was turned on in my heart. However, yesterday I read on "PuritanBoard" that their staff,mods,and membership seem to be overwhlmingly anti-Fundamentalist. I think I would expect disagreement on some issues, but calling "Bob Jones University" EVIL is a bit much. Refering to Dr. John R.Rice, one of the sweetest men in any pulpit, as causing their "skin to crawl" with revulsion. Have I made a mistake? I cannot get on the Puritan Board site, so I ask you instead....What's going on here?

Julian of York
Fundamental Reformed and proudly KJV ONLY
 

Osage Bluestem

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This is a very serious question. Please prayerfully answer.
I am a lifelong Baptist, starting in the SBC as a child and going through both Freewill and Independent Fundamentalism (KJV Only). For the last two years , I have been Reformed, and it has been as if a light was turned on in my heart. However, yesterday I read on "PuritanBoard" that their staff,mods,and membership seem to be overwhlmingly anti-Fundamentalist. I think I would expect disagreement on some issues, but calling "Bob Jones University" EVIL is a bit much. Refering to Dr. John R.Rice, one of the sweetest men in any pulpit, as causing their "skin to crawl" with revulsion. Have I made a mistake? I cannot get on the Puritan Board site, so I ask you instead....What's going on here?

Julian of York
Fundamental Reformed and proudly KJV ONLY

Not all Calvinists are welcome there. I personally don't like the Puritan Board and have been kicked off twice for not holding to a Sabbath and for saying I agree with John MacArthur on some things they condemn as dispensational like acknowledging a separation between Jews and Gentiles claiming gentiles are grafted into a Jewish church etc. People like John MacArthur aren't even welcome there at all. They treat him and those like him like pariahs. They would deny him membership if he tried to join. You have to be 100% confessionally Reformed to be a member. That means you can't disagree with anything your stated confession says unless you submit an exception that the admins approve of and they probably won't approve as they are puritanical. They allow their members to confess the Westminster and the LBCF but among those who confess the Westminster is debate that the LBCF is even reformed at all but 1689ers are allowed there anyway. It's a very small and legalistic club. It's a Puritan board. If you are 100% Puritan sign up. If not, avoid it. They aren't even mainstream like Piper, MacArthur, et all. So, take what they say with a grain of salt. I don't know if you heard that guy recently stand up in the question and answer period at St. Andrews with RC Sproul and Sinclair Ferguson and foolishly accuse Sinclair Ferguson of taking the L out of Limited Atonement along with Piper, but that guy is a good example of what the Puritan Board is like. He's probably a member.

So, no, not all Calvinists hate fundamentalists. Most Calvinists don't even belong on the Puritan Board so don't worry. The admins of the PB think it takes a lot more than just confessing the 5 points and scriptural inerrancy to be "reformed." They don't have a monopoly on the word. In the modern vernacular Reformed means a conservative Christian who confesses 5 point Calvinism. The PB don't use the modern vernacular and instead insist on speaking an outdated language that no one else uses and thus they remain isolated in their little non evangelical bubble splitting hairs.
 
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desmalia

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To many Reformed, Fundamentalism = legalism.
True, yet by the strictest definition, Reformers are actually fundamentalists. Problem is, fundamentalism has a whole bunch of different definitions these days, so it's hard to really give a blanket answer without a more detailed definition. My guess is the folks at PB (which I never got accepted into either, btw) probably view all fundamentalists as dispensationist, which is true of some, but not all. There's also the further confusion associated with the IFB crowd, who do not represent all of Christian fundamentalism, though they might be what most people think of first and foremost.
Clear as mud? :)
 
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mothcorrupteth

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This is a very serious question. Please prayerfully answer.
I am a lifelong Baptist, starting in the SBC as a child and going through both Freewill and Independent Fundamentalism (KJV Only). For the last two years , I have been Reformed, and it has been as if a light was turned on in my heart. However, yesterday I read on "PuritanBoard" that their staff,mods,and membership seem to be overwhlmingly anti-Fundamentalist. I think I would expect disagreement on some issues, but calling "Bob Jones University" EVIL is a bit much. Refering to Dr. John R.Rice, one of the sweetest men in any pulpit, as causing their "skin to crawl" with revulsion. Have I made a mistake? I cannot get on the Puritan Board site, so I ask you instead....What's going on here?

Julian of York
Fundamental Reformed and proudly KJV ONLY
It depends on what you mean by "fundamentalist." If you mean the classic definition of somebody who, against the pressures of liberal theology, retains a belief in "the Fundamentals," then all conservative Reformed and Puritans are fundamentalist in that sense.

However, the way the word is typically used by anyone who has a clue about theology (as opposed to idiots wanting to compare violent Islamists and polygamist Mormons to theologically conservative Christians), fundamentalist usually refers to the evangelical wing of the fundamentalist reaction--Methodists, Baptists, Pentecostals, everybody conservative except Reformed and Lutherans, basically. Conservative Reformed and Puritans tend to dissociate themselves from this kind of "fundamentalism" because as a whole it has pursued a rather anti-intellectual direction, especially in its opposition to the Doctrines of Grace. That's not to say that there aren't intellectually honest fundamentalists who can rationally defend their beliefs. However, by and large, fundamentalism relies on sensationalism and straw-man arguments, which makes fundamentalist opponents of Reformed soteriology and sacramentology especially obnoxious.

Not all Calvinists are welcome there. I personally don't like the Puritan Board and have been kicked off twice for not holding to a Sabbath and for saying I agree with John MacArthur on some things they condemn as dispensational like acknowledging a separation between Jews and Gentiles claiming gentiles are grafted into a Jewish church etc. People like John MacArthur aren't even welcome there at all. They treat him and those like him like pariahs. They would deny him membership if he tried to join. You have to be 100% confessionally Reformed to be a member. That means you can't disagree with anything your stated confession says unless you submit an exception that the admins approve of and they probably won't approve as they are puritanical. They allow their members to confess the Westminster and the LBCF but among those who confess the Westminster is debate that the LBCF is even reformed at all but 1689ers are allowed there anyway. It's a very small and legalistic club. It's a Puritan board. If you are 100% Puritan sign up. If not, avoid it. They aren't even mainstream like Piper, MacArthur, et all. So, take what they say with a grain of salt. I don't know if you heard that guy recently stand up in the question and answer period at St. Andrews with RC Sproul and Sinclair Ferguson and foolishly accuse Sinclair Ferguson of taking the L out of Limited Atonement along with Piper, but that guy is a good example of what the Puritan Board is like. He's probably a member.

So, no, not all Calvinists hate fundamentalists. Most Calvinists don't even belong on the Puritan Board so don't worry. The admins of the PB think it takes a lot more than just confessing the 5 points and scriptural inerrancy to be "reformed." They don't have a monopoly on the word. In the modern vernacular Reformed means a conservative Christian who confesses 5 point Calvinism. The PB don't use the modern vernacular and instead insist on speaking an outdated language that no one else uses and thus they remain isolated in their little non evangelical bubble splitting hairs.
It does take more than just confessing the 5 points and scriptural inerrancy, and to act like that is legalism is to play fast and loose with the meaning of legalism. To be "legalistic" is either (1) to say that something beyond faith in the death, burial, and Resurrection of Christ in history is required for salvation, or (2) to add man-made requirements to the law of God. PuritanBoard is doing neither. PuritanBoard is saying that if you're going to use the word Reformed, use it correctly. If you just hold to the five points, you're soteriologically Reformed, but are you sacramentally Reformed? Are you ecclesiologically Reformed? Are you politically Reformed? Are you dispensationally Reformed? I mean, imagine I only adopted the semi-congregationalist church government of the SBC, but retained my paedobaptist sacramentology, yet I went around calling myself a "Southern Baptist." Or imagine I accepted consubstantiation but retained my belief in the 5 points and my exclusive psalmody and my rejection of man-made holidays like Christmas, yet I went around calling myself a "Lutheran." It's the same thing when credobaptists call themselves "Reformed." They're soteriologically Reformed, but that doesn't give anybody the warrant to co-opt the name for the whole package.

And note that there's no stipulation in any of that which says that you have to be a paedobaptist to be saved, or that a woman's hair must be at least X inches long, or anything of that sort. That would be legalism. There's none of that in this discussion. There is, at most, a concern that people have the right doctrine sacramentally, ecclesiologically, politically, and dispensationally. But that's not legalism. That's concern for orthodoxy. And if you think those things are frivolous to split hairs over, then I would invite you to consider that the apostles themselves split hairs over it, because they would never have written half the things they wrote in their epistles if these matters were indifferent.
 
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Nova Scotian Boy

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It does take more than just confessing the 5 points and scriptural inerrancy, and to act like that is legalism is to play fast and loose with the meaning of legalism. To be "legalistic" is either (1) to say that something beyond faith in the death, burial, and Resurrection of Christ in history is required for salvation, or (2) to add man-made requirements to the law of God. PuritanBoard is doing neither. PuritanBoard is saying that if you're going to use the word Reformed, use it correctly. If you just hold to the five points, you're soteriologically Reformed, but are you sacramentally Reformed? Are you ecclesiologically Reformed? Are you politically Reformed? Are you dispensationally Reformed? I mean, imagine I only adopted the semi-congregationalist church government of the SBC, but retained my paedobaptist sacramentology, yet I went around calling myself a "Southern Baptist." Or imagine I accepted consubstantiation but retained my belief in the 5 points and my exclusive psalmody and my rejection of man-made holidays like Christmas, yet I went around calling myself a "Lutheran." It's the same thing when credobaptists call themselves "Reformed." They're soteriologically Reformed, but that doesn't give anybody the warrant to co-opt the name for the whole package.

And note that there's no stipulation in any of that which says that you have to be a paedobaptist to be saved, or that a woman's hair must be at least X inches long, or anything of that sort. That would be legalism. There's none of that in this discussion. There is, at most, a concern that people have the right doctrine sacramentally, ecclesiologically, politically, and dispensationally. But that's not legalism. That's concern for orthodoxy. And if you think those things are frivolous to split hairs over, then I would invite you to consider that the apostles themselves split hairs over it, because they would never have written half the things they wrote in their epistles if these matters were indifferent.

Well said.:thumbsup:
 
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Thank you, everyone! This explains much.
I suppose it is entirely possible that the PB folks are just as happy I am not on their link.
Once again, may I state that the REASON for my post is not so much for or against fundamentalism, as it is the ATTITUDE that I had questions with.
Perhaps it would be as well to state a few things that I do NOT agree with Independent Fundamentalists about:
1) I believe they are in error by preaching a strictly "salvation" message every Sunday morning, with an "altar call".My personal observation is A) if all these folk are truly converted, or even a small portion, then churches would be bulging, and national revival would be at hand. Going for "numbers" of conversions,baptisms, and rededications is a subset of this phenomena.B) The people in the congregation are getting nothing, I said NOTHING from the sermon. If not for my personal study over the years, I wouldn't know ANYTHING about the Lord. I have learned more theology,and have a deeper understanding of Christ and walk with Him since becoming Reformed than in the past 50 years.
2)I use the KJV only. However, I am NOT against others in the congregation using any good translation. This issue, which is mentioned almost every week in some churches, is not worth fighting over. If,however, you are a lazy pastor, who needs to "stir up" your flock occasionally and "prove" your orthodoxy, it makes a GREAT source for getting an "amen" from the crowd. NOBODY will be offended, almost EVERYONE will agree, and you will be seen as a SAINT! The preaching for righteousness and against sin ,however, is rarer than hen's teeth. And forget holiness,"without which no man shall see the Lord." Or sanctification. I NEVER heard these terms before becoming reformed!!!!
3)And then we have the RAPTURE. I know,in my life, the "threat" of a any-minute Rapture kept me from 1)studying hard in school 2)planning at all for the future, and so forth.

Oh,well.
JoY

SUMMATION: The number one fault I have with ANY method of "soul winning"" apart from the leading of the Holy Spirit is FALSE CONVERSIONS! My family is rife with them, which I am praying for true repentence (there is another word nobody mentions in Ind.Fun. circles) to show them their error.
 
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mothcorrupteth

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I think those are all responsible opinions, Julian. Unfortunately, some of the Reformed also drift towards teaching a salvation-focused message only every week (redemptive-historical preaching), to the neglect of other worthy topics, such as church government or correct practice. The KJV does have many strengths, especially where it maintains the original Greek's word order. And as for the Rapture, it's been my own experience in fundamentalist churches that the Rapture is used as a scare tactic for salvation, instead of a doctrine of hope.

I think whichever user on PB said that Bob Jones U. was "evil" must have been saying so with tongue in cheek. It's true, there's probably a distaste for BJU's more legalistic tendencies there, but I doubt the user in question actually meant that it was evil.
 
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jpcedotal

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Thank you, everyone! This explains much.
I suppose it is entirely possible that the PB folks are just as happy I am not on their link.
Once again, may I state that the REASON for my post is not so much for or against fundamentalism, as it is the ATTITUDE that I had questions with.
Perhaps it would be as well to state a few things that I do NOT agree with Independent Fundamentalists about:
1) I believe they are in error by preaching a strictly "salvation" message every Sunday morning, with an "altar call".My personal observation is A) if all these folk are truly converted, or even a small portion, then churches would be bulging, and national revival would be at hand. Going for "numbers" of conversions,baptisms, and rededications is a subset of this phenomena.B) The people in the congregation are getting nothing, I said NOTHING from the sermon. If not for my personal study over the years, I wouldn't know ANYTHING about the Lord. I have learned more theology,and have a deeper understanding of Christ and walk with Him since becoming Reformed than in the past 50 years.
2)I use the KJV only. However, I am NOT against others in the congregation using any good translation. This issue, which is mentioned almost every week in some churches, is not worth fighting over. If,however, you are a lazy pastor, who needs to "stir up" your flock occasionally and "prove" your orthodoxy, it makes a GREAT source for getting an "amen" from the crowd. NOBODY will be offended, almost EVERYONE will agree, and you will be seen as a SAINT! The preaching for righteousness and against sin ,however, is rarer than hen's teeth. And forget holiness,"without which no man shall see the Lord." Or sanctification. I NEVER heard these terms before becoming reformed!!!!
3)And then we have the RAPTURE. I know,in my life, the "threat" of a any-minute Rapture kept me from 1)studying hard in school 2)planning at all for the future, and so forth.

Oh,well.
JoY

SUMMATION: The number one fault I have with ANY method of "soul winning"" apart from the leading of the Holy Spirit is FALSE CONVERSIONS! My family is rife with them, which I am praying for true repentence (there is another word nobody mentions in Ind.Fun. circles) to show them their error.

1) I agree with this to a point. I am from a small country church so my view will be given form this angle. Sunday school and Sunday morning service should be all about Salvation. This will more than likely be the time there will be guests in the church setting so the number one priority should be their salvation...our need for "enriched study" always comes in second to this. Now, Sunday night discipleship training and the night sermon should be focused more on Christian living and in depth Bible study because that is usually what makes up 99% of the congregation and membership at night. I DO think there has been a lack of core Bible Study in all church denominations. Everything now is geared around "study books" and such with the Bible as simply a reference book.

2) Not sure I am following you. Are u saying that preaching on the KJV as the only "true" translation is a good thing or a bad thing? I personally use different translations for different things. At night when I am simply reading the Bible from cover to cover, I like the NLT because it is an easy read for me and it focuses more on passage meaning instead of word study. For serious study I like the KJV and the NASB with the NKJV for flavor.

3) Really not going to get into a Rapture argument, but to use it as the reason for your own laziness seems a little weak. Take a little responsibility for your own decisions and quit trying to blame a movement for your bad ones. "The Rapture made me do it"...really? This is the best you got?

Overall, it looks like you have a real hatred for the Fundamentalist Church. Hey, whatever. That's why there are more that one type of Christian church...I guess. I would just like to add to just be careful in your walk. Anytime it seems like the path or view God gives you seems to align itself with what the world thinks is the moral correct view (such as abortion or homosexuality)...that is more than likely Satan not God leading you.

Mat 6:24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

Now, I understand money is the deity here, but this goes for the world as well. We can not serve both. We are either of God or of the world. There is no middle ground.

Rev 3:16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

This is a Christian who tries to be of the world in his/her moral code and beliefs. To me, this is the Reformed movement. It doesn't seem like the Reformed movement stands up against the world for God in anything...that there is always wiggle room and "outs" where a certain truth in the Bible does not count.

I just worry that this "reformed" movement has more to do with making "sin not sin" and taking away the responsibilities every Christian has to try and live a holy (set apart) life.
 
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cajunhillbilly

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I would say Reformed folks do not HATE fundamentalism, per se. We see those who truly know the Lord through repentance and faith in fundamentalist circle as true brothers and sisters in the Lord. If anything Fundies hate Reformed theology with a passion. Like someone mentioned above, they build strawmen arguments against Reformed theology and destroy those strawmen and think they have disproved Reformed theology. They do the same for Lutheran theology and Catholic and EO theology. Their grasp of theology is pitiful, in my opinion. Or of history for that matter. I read a Fundamentalist Baptist website recently that claimed there have always been Baptists down through the history of the church. They then pointed to groups like the Cathari, who were Gnostic heretics and the Waldensians, whose theology more closely resembeld the Lutheran or Reformed theologies as proof. Pitiful grasp of history and historic theology.
 
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twin1954

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Don't worry at all about the Puritanboard. They consider themselves the intellectual elite and care more about you having the correct doctrine than about you having Christ. They are far worse than the Fundies in their expectation of you fitting a certain mold. You can rejoice in the truths of the Scriptures without being Reformed.
 
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This is a very serious question. Please prayerfully answer.
I am a lifelong Baptist, starting in the SBC as a child and going through both Freewill and Independent Fundamentalism (KJV Only). For the last two years , I have been Reformed, and it has been as if a light was turned on in my heart. However, yesterday I read on "PuritanBoard" that their staff,mods,and membership seem to be overwhlmingly anti-Fundamentalist. I think I would expect disagreement on some issues, but calling "Bob Jones University" EVIL is a bit much. Refering to Dr. John R.Rice, one of the sweetest men in any pulpit, as causing their "skin to crawl" with revulsion. Have I made a mistake? I cannot get on the Puritan Board site, so I ask you instead....What's going on here?

Julian of York
Fundamental Reformed and proudly KJV ONLY

Hello Julian,

HERE is a link to a recent thread about fundamentalism. In my post from the thread I quoted Wikipedia:

"" Fundamentalism had multiple roots in British and American theology of the 19th century.[9] One root was Dispensationalism, a new interpretation of the Bible developed in the 1830s in England. It was a millenarian theory that divided all of time into seven different stages, called "dispensations," which were seen as stages of God's revelation. At the end of each stage, according to this theory, God punished humanity for having been found wanting in God's testing. Secularism, liberalism, and immorality in the 1920s were believed to be signs that humanity had again failed God's testing. This means that the world is on the verge of the last stage, where a final battle will take place at Armageddon, followed by Christ's return and 1,000 year reign.[10] One important sign is the rebirth of Israel, support for which became the centerpiece of Fundamentalist foreign policy.[11]

A second stream came from Princeton Theology in the mid-19th century, which developed the doctrine of inerrancy in response to higher criticism of the Bible.[12][13] The work of Charles Hodge influenced fundamental insistence that the Bible was inerrant because it had been dictated by God and written by men who took that dictation. This meant that the Bible should be read differently from any other historical document, and also that modernism and liberalism were believed to lead people to hell just like non-Christian religions.[14]

A third strand—and the name itself—came from a 12-volume study The Fundamentals, published 1910-1915.[15] Sponsors subsidized the free distribution of over three million individual volumes to clergy, laymen and libraries. This version[16] stressed several core beliefs, including:

The inerrancy of the Bible
The literal nature of the Biblical accounts, especially regarding Christ's miracles and the Creation account in Genesis.
The Virgin Birth of Christ
The bodily resurrection and physical return of Christ
The substitutionary atonement of Christ on the cross


By the late 1920s the first two points had become central to Fundamentalism. A fourth strand was the growing concern among many evangelical Christians with modernism and the higher criticism of the Bible. This strand concentrated on opposition to Darwinism. A fifth strand was the strong sense of the need for public revivals, a common theme among many Evangelicals who did not become Fundamentalists. Numerous efforts to form coordinating bodies failed, and the most influential treatise came much later, in Systematic Theology (1947) by Lewis S. Chafer, who founded the Dallas Theological Seminary in 1924." - Wikipedia

Personally I am not a Dispensationalist, and prefer not to be mistaken for one. However, I do believe the core beliefs quoted above. I am not ashamed to be associated with the Princeton theological giants like C. Hodge. I have not read all of the many many articles in the multi-volume "Fundamentals" book set, but I do own a set and know among other respected known authors, one of the many many authors is B.B. Warfield, another giant of the Reformed faith.

Anyway, if you read through the thread linked, you will encounter many common and unfair "stereotypes" often attributed to fundamentalists. Most Christians of the Calvinist variety are fundamentalists in one sense or another. Unfortunately the stereotypes have put a negative spin on the word fundamentalist, people who defend the inerrancy of Scripture are often labeled fundamentalists, and perhaps we are, but the unfair negative stereotypes do not define (nor even apply in most cases) the fundamentalistness (if that's even a word) of our beliefs.

So, not only do most Reformed folks not hate fundamentalists, many of us Reformed folks are fundamentalists, minus the stereotypes.
 
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However, the way the word is typically used by anyone who has a clue about theology (as opposed to idiots wanting to compare violent Islamists and polygamist Mormons to theologically conservative Christians), fundamentalist usually refers to the evangelical wing of the fundamentalist reaction--Methodists, Baptists, Pentecostals, everybody conservative except Reformed and Lutherans, basically. Conservative Reformed and Puritans tend to dissociate themselves from this kind of "fundamentalism" because as a whole it has pursued a rather anti-intellectual direction, especially in its opposition to the Doctrines of Grace. That's not to say that there aren't intellectually honest fundamentalists who can rationally defend their beliefs. However, by and large, fundamentalism relies on sensationalism and straw-man arguments, which makes fundamentalist opponents of Reformed soteriology and sacramentology especially obnoxious.

Unfortunately, most of what you describe are the common unfair negative stereotyping which seems to often prevail. Just because there is a strand of misguided anti-intellectual types within fundamentalism, that does not define it, because the roots of fundamentalism as a movement are grounded by such theologically conservative men as Charles Hodge and B.B. Warfield, whom are anything but anti-intellectuals.

Also, there is nothing within fundamentalism proper which is against the Doctrines of Grace. In fact, the core belief of substitutionary atonement is particular redemption which is opposed to the whole "make possible for anyone" notion so often preached and taught by Arminian theologians.
 
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VCViking

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I hate the ism on Fundamental, yes. The theology of Fundamentalism finds its origin in the modern mindset and is a knee jerk reaction to Enlightenment thinking.



Didn't you used to be a "fundie"? Why the 180?
 
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JM

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Didn't you used to be a "fundie"? Why the 180?

^_^ I had no idea what a Fundamentalist was until I crossed paths with one a few years back. I accepted the common definitions of Fundamentalism used in this thread until I realized I was not a true, Traditional Fundie like the fella I talked with. The more I looked into it the more I realized how stagnate the whole movement is.
 
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mothcorrupteth

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Unfortunately, most of what you describe are the common unfair negative stereotyping which seems to often prevail. Just because there is a strand of misguided anti-intellectual types within fundamentalism, that does not define it, because the roots of fundamentalism as a movement are grounded by such theologically conservative men as Charles Hodge and B.B. Warfield, whom are anything but anti-intellectuals.
Which I implicitly acknowledged, when I said that in the way we use the word nowadays, it usually refers only to the dominant Arminian-revivalist wing of what was originally called "Fundamentalism."

Also, there is nothing within fundamentalism proper which is against the Doctrines of Grace. In fact, the core belief of substitutionary atonement is particular redemption which is opposed to the whole "make possible for anyone" notion so often preached and taught by Arminian theologians.
I never said that there was. I said most fundamentalists are Arminian, to the point that the word has only come to refer to the Arminian wing (and, if you want to be technical, the OSAS wing, too). Moreover, a large number of those who originally subscribed to the Five Fundamentals were Arminian and would never have assented to the thought that the substitutionary atonement was a particular atonement. The force of the credo for substitutionary atonement is an opposition to the liberal-theological theory that Christ only died as a good moral example. There's nothing attached to it that addresses the Arminian/Calvinist controversy. Can you make sense of the atonement apart from particularity? No. But that does not mean that an Arminian cannot confess the fourth Fundamental.
 
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