Do the OT laws still apply?

[Wiccan_Child]

Well, do they? Where in the NT is the OT 'overwritten'?

 

[t1mp]

Jesus upheld the ten commandments, and said to uphold those. Sacrifice is no longer needed that the jews used to do when they sinned, and also the High priests are not needed as Jesus replaced those both. Paul and Peter all talked about circumsision and its place to be upheld so Gentiles when preaching Jesus among the Jews would have the same authority and credibility as a jew preaching to a jew.

What specific 'laws' you talking about as well?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Jesus upheld the ten commandments, and said to uphold those. Sacrifice is no longer needed that the jews used to do when they sinned, and also the High priests are not needed as Jesus replaced those both. Paul and Peter all talked about circumsision and its place to be upheld so Gentiles when preaching Jesus among the Jews would have the same authority and credibility as a jew preaching to a jew.

What specific 'laws' you talking about as well?

There are 660 (or there abouts) laws/commandments in the Torah. It is to these that I refer.

So if the NT characters endorsed the OT laws, then why do Christians eat pork? Why do they not celebrate Passover?

 

[t1mp]

There are 660 (or there abouts) laws/commandments in the Torah. It is to these that I refer.

So if the NT characters endorsed the OT laws, then why do Christians eat pork? Why do they not celebrate Passover?

Because we do not have to, no one does. When Jesus came and died on the cross for yours and everyone else's sins, the faith in him is all that is needed to attain eternal life. He provided a perfect model for living your life, and how to conquer sin. Prayer, Prayer and conquering sin.

Why do you ask about OT laws??

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Because we do not have to, no one does. When Jesus came and died on the cross for yours and everyone else's sins, the faith in him is all that is needed to attain eternal life. He provided a perfect model for living your life, and how to conquer sin. Prayer, Prayer and conquering sin.

Why do you ask about OT laws??

So I have a more 'Christian' rebuttle against the trite Leviticus 18:22. At least this way I won't be accused of 'twisting scripture' ().

 

[SonicBOOM]

Jesus upheld the ten commandments, and said to uphold those. Sacrifice is no longer needed that the jews used to do when they sinned, and also the High priests are not needed as Jesus replaced those both. Paul and Peter all talked about circumsision and its place to be upheld so Gentiles when preaching Jesus among the Jews would have the same authority and credibility as a jew preaching to a jew.

What specific 'laws' you talking about as well?

well..... here's my take on it. Jesus says that love fullfills the law and Paul says that everything is nothing without love. So I'd say that we should follow the laws... but we should make love our driving force. To obey the law without love was the Pharasees mistake and we all know how Jesus felt about that.

 

[t1mp]

So I have a more 'Christian' rebuttle against the trite Leviticus 18:22. At least this way I won't be accused of 'twisting scripture' ().

How would you rebuttal that? Homosexuality is not allowed. Jesus did not ever endorse this behavior, nor sexual sin. When Jesus saved the woman from adultery in John 8:1, he was not condoning her actions by preventing her execution, but showing that we(mankind) have no right to condemn a person based on their sins as we are sinners ourself. Jesus was also showing that he does not condemn us either when we open our heart and come to him. In the end he tells the woman to leave her life of sin, thus never justifying her sexual sins. Homesexuality is a form of sexual sin.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

How would you rebuttal that? Homosexuality is not allowed.

Says who? Remember, the OT is not allowed.

Jesus did not ever endorse this behavior,

He didn't endorse cars either. Jesus never condemned homosexuality. The driving force is love, is it not?

nor sexual sin.

But that begs the question: what sexual practicies are sinful, and why?

When Jesus saved the woman from adultery in John 8:1, he was not condoning her actions by preventing her execution, but showing that we(mankind) have no right to condemn a person based on their sins as we are sinners ourself.

Indeed. But what makes her prostitution equivilent to homosexuality?

Homesexuality is a form of sexual sin.

Justification? There is all this wonderful rhetoric on sexual sin, but then there is the strange appendix: homosexuality is (sexual) sin. This happens time and time again, but I am left unanswered when I ask: why? Why is homosexuality a sexual sin? What makes you believe homosexuality is a sexual sin?

 

[t1mp]

Says who? Remember, the OT is not allowed.

The OT is more than allowed.

He didn't endorse cars either. Jesus never condemned homosexuality. The driving force is love, is it not?

Jesus never condemned anyone, but he taught. You can easily not condemn but still outline what is right or wrong.

But that begs the question: what sexual practicies are sinful, and why?

Anything outside of marriage between a male and female. Why? Probably because God knows that it eats us up alive when we dive into sin.

Indeed. But what makes her prostitution equivilent to homosexuality?

Already answered that.

Justification? There is all this wonderful rhetoric on sexual sin, but then there is the strange appendix: homosexuality is (sexual) sin. This happens time and time again, but I am left unanswered when I ask: why? Why is homosexuality a sexual sin? What makes you believe homosexuality is a sexual sin?

I beleive homosexuality is a sin because it goes against one of the principals of what God wants us to do, procreate. Homosexuality stems from lust, lust usually leads when unchecked and handled to sexual deviancy. I think we can all admit we battle lust everyday. Also, there is no marriage of the same sex, so therefore any sex between male/male or female/female is sexual sin because they are having sex outside of marriage.


Don't let Satan to continue to fool you.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Jesus never condemned anyone, but he taught. You can easily not condemn but still outline what is right or wrong.

A highly precarious argument, though: what you extrapolate from Jesus' words is your personal opinion, and there is no certainty that it is correct. Jesus didn't condemn car, nor did he condemn homosexuality. That A is neither condemned nor condoned only tells us that we do not know Jesus' stance on A.

Anything outside of marriage between a male and female. Why? Probably because God knows that it eats us up alive when we dive into sin.

But you have not explained why homosexuality is a sin. You simply state it to be sin without any explanation.

I beleive homosexuality is a sin because it goes against one of the principals of what God wants us to do, procreate.

So does celebacy, but that's herelded as a good thing to have.

Homosexuality stems from lust,

Justification?

I think we can all admit we battle lust everyday.

I am aware of my libido as some point during the day, but I wouldn't say I 'battle lust'.

Also, there is no marriage of the same sex, so therefore any sex between male/male or female/female is sexual sin because they are having sex outside of marriage.

So it isn't the gender pairing, it's the pre-marital sex. Gotcha. So why make a big deal about homosexuality?

Don't let Satan to continue to fool you.

I don't believe Satan exists.

 

[t1mp]

A highly precarious argument, though: what you extrapolate from Jesus' words is your personal opinion, and there is no certainty that it is correct. Jesus didn't condemn car, nor did he condemn homosexuality. That A is neither condemned nor condoned only tells us that we do not know Jesus' stance on A.


But you have not explained why homosexuality is a sin. You simply state it to be sin without any explanation.


So does celebacy, but that's herelded as a good thing to have.


Justification?


I am aware of my libido as some point during the day, but I wouldn't say I 'battle lust'.


So it isn't the gender pairing, it's the pre-marital sex. Gotcha. So why make a big deal about homosexuality?


I don't believe Satan exists.

Let me ask you a serious question, then we can get back to the subject at hand. Even though this question is relevant to our discussion.

Do you think you are a good person?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Let me ask you a serious question, then we can get back to the subject at hand. Even though this question is relevant to our discussion.

Do you think you are a good person?

Short answer: yes.
Long answer: yes, but on rare occasions I indulge in actions I consider immoral. But on the whole, I consider myself to be a good person.

 

[SonicBOOM]

A highly precarious argument, though: what you extrapolate from Jesus' words is your personal opinion, and there is no certainty that it is correct.

all truths start off as oppionions my freind. you have to work through oppionion before you get to truth. You can't jump the bus. Even the most stable truths [like evultion] started off as someone's wild idea. So I think oppionions need to be taken much more seriously than that.

Jesus didn't condemn car, nor did he condemn homosexuality. That A is neither condemned nor condoned only tells us that we do not know Jesus' stance on A.

well.... there is ONE passage that sticks out to me. when the Jewish people quistioned Jesus on divorce Jesus said that divorce was permitted in the OT law because of the people's hard hearts. That really makes me quistion.... what else was written out of the hardness of people's hearts?? Divorce is commanded in the OT law.... but here Jesus says that that command was a result of hardness of heart? Could it be that the OT law is fallable?

But you have not explained why homosexuality is a sin. You simply state it to be sin without any explanation.

indeed, this frusterates me to. Oppionions DO only hold so much weight even though they are essentail. I beleive the modern homosexaulity stance is based on a half-truth. The bible DOES indeed preach against it and I personally take the stanse that it's not so much a sin as it is not normal and it's a very unhealthy way to live. In this light I'd say homosexaulity is wrong.... but the half-truth part is that Paul ALSO lists disrespecting your parents in the same list he lists homosexaulity. So homosexaulity is indeed preached against.... but it's not as bad as protestants seem to make it.

I am aware of my libido as some point during the day, but I wouldn't say I 'battle lust'.

I battle lust! Lust isn't really synonomious with sexaulity.... i think lust, in it's proper defention, is simple "a prostituded desire". I beleive when we want something so bad that we are willing to hurt someone to get it, i beleive that is lusting after the object. When it comes to sexaul lust, i don't beleive we are lusting until we become so consumed that we are willing to hurt the person in order to get to their body.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

all truths start off as oppionions my freind. you have to work through oppionion before you get to truth. You can't jump the bus. Even the most stable truths [like evultion] started off as someone's wild idea. So I think oppionions need to be taken much more seriously than that.

My point was that one opinion randomly chosen from among thousands is unlikely to be any more accurate than the next one. A person can believe what they want, but evidence is what makes a spark of an idea turn into theory.

well.... there is ONE passage that sticks out to me. when the Jewish people quistioned Jesus on divorce Jesus said that divorce was permitted in the OT law because of the people's hard hearts. That really makes me quistion.... what else was written out of the hardness of people's hearts?? Divorce is commanded in the OT law.... but here Jesus says that that command was a result of hardness of heart? Could it be that the OT law is fallable?

Hmm, interesting. Perhaps Jesus was referring to the people's desire to divorce, rather than the act of writing it down. I must ponder...

indeed, this frusterates me to. Oppionions DO only hold so much weight even though they are essentail.

Agreed.

I beleive the modern homosexaulity stance is based on a half-truth. The bible DOES indeed preach against it

I disagree, but let us withold from the ensuring semantical battle for the moment.

and I personally take the stanse that it's not so much a sin as it is not normal and it's a very unhealthy way to live.

I agree that it is not normal insofar as it is not the norm (2-5%, after all), but I disagree that it is 'very unhealthy'. I have been a homosexual all my life and I wouldn't call myself 'very unhealthy'. I have an allergy to cats, and I'm shortsighted, but I'd hardly attribute that to my homosexuality

In this light I'd say homosexaulity is wrong.... but the half-truth part is that Paul ALSO lists disrespecting your parents in the same list he lists homosexaulity. So homosexaulity is indeed preached against.... but it's not as bad as protestants seem to make it.

Agreed. The reason I made this thread was to address the issue of using the OT to condemn homosexuality whilst outright ignoring the other laws and abominations just verses away! It completely baffles me, it really does.

I battle lust! Lust isn't really synonomious with sexaulity.... i think lust, in it's proper defention, is simple "a prostituded desire". I beleive when we want something so bad that we are willing to hurt someone to get it, i beleive that is lusting after the object. When it comes to sexaul lust, i don't beleive we are lusting until we become so consumed that we are willing to hurt the person in order to get to their body.

Ah, well, if that is how you define lust, then I agree that it is wrong. Though I can't say I've ever lusted after someone in that way .

 

[SonicBOOM]

My point was that one opinion randomly chosen from among thousands is unlikely to be any more accurate than the next one. A person can believe what they want, but evidence is what makes a spark of an idea turn into theory.

agreed, the problem with random oppionions are there are also random oppionions that disagree and both can't be right.

I disagree, but let us withold from the ensuring semantical battle for the moment.

no battle is necessary I hold my veiw.... but I don't let me veiw dictate how i love people.

I agree that it is not normal insofar as it is not the norm (2-5%, after all), but I disagree that it is 'very unhealthy'. I have been a homosexual all my life and I wouldn't call myself 'very unhealthy'. I have an allergy to cats, and I'm shortsighted, but I'd hardly attribute that to my homosexuality

ok fair enough and I could indeed name a number of other acts that are way more unhealthy.

Agreed. The reason I made this thread was to address the issue of using the OT to condemn homosexuality whilst outright ignoring the other laws and abominations just verses away! It completely baffles me, it really does.

yeah.... I made a thread awhile back asking why people think homosexaulity is so focased on. The reason most people gave of why this happens is because homosexaulity is an easy target. I think I'd agree with them.... sexaulity is a very privite and vulnerable subject in itself... homosexaulity can only be more privite and vulnerable.

Ah, well, if that is how you define lust, then I agree that it is wrong. Though I can't say I've ever lusted after someone in that way .

naw me either and if I ever did I'd ASK for stones to be thrown at me... I would be an abomanation! Though my point was more that lust has been mis-defined. I think sexaulity is only one way we can lust.... there are many others. Though Jesus DID put the action out away from the outer and put it into the inner. So the subject is up for debate.... are we guilty of lust if we get the desire without putting the desire into action? Not sure....

 

[Wiccan_Child]

ok fair enough and I could indeed name a number of other acts that are way more unhealthy.

Perhaps, but which of them would be homosexual? Anal sex is practiced by all sorts of gender-pairings, for example.

yeah.... I made a thread awhile back asking why people think homosexaulity is so focased on. The reason most people gave of why this happens is because homosexaulity is an easy target. I think I'd agree with them.... sexaulity is a very privite and vulnerable subject in itself... homosexaulity can only be more privite and vulnerable.

I think it stems from the revulsion heterosexuals feel when then think about homosexual acts (with their own gender, of course; many straight men find lesbians to be quite titilating...). What they fail to realise is that homosexuals feel the same revulsions when we think about heterosexual acts (the thought of a woman doing something sexual... eurgh).

naw me either and if I ever did I'd ASK for stones to be thrown at me... I would be an abomanation! Though my point was more that lust has been mis-defined. I think sexaulity is only one way we can lust.... there are many others. Though Jesus DID put the action out away from the outer and put it into the inner. So the subject is up for debate.... are we guilty of lust if we get the desire without putting the desire into action? Not sure....

There's no way to test for it, but I think there was a passage somewhere that said that if a man merely looks at another woman in 'that way', he has committed adultery. So from a Christian point of view, even the desire is sinful.

 

[Touma]

Jesus never came to do away with the laws. Instead He fulfilled them all, and those who are born again in Him, are essentially being covered by His fulfilling of the law.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Jesus never came to do away with the laws. Instead He fulfilled them all, and those who are born again in Him, are essentially being covered by His fulfilling of the law.

So do you eat pork? Shellfish? Work on the Sabbath? Do you punish people who do these things?

 

[Touma]

So do you eat pork? Shellfish? Work on the Sabbath? Do you punish people who do these things?

No, as I said, as long as I am a believer in Him, I am not under the law. He fulfilled it so I don't have to waste my life trying to. Also, he saved me from being judged by it. When we die, we are either judged by the law or grace.

Besides, didn't you read where the law was summed up into two commandments? Love God with all your mind, heart and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself.

 

[Kai]

The OT is more than allowed.

Although it's not needed. The Apostle Paul condemns it in very explicit terms in I Corinthians.