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Do the Fall of Man and the Atonement actually make sense to you?

Lanny P

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Try as I might, I’ve been unable to find explanations of such core Christian doctrines as the Fall of Man and the Atonement that make sense to me – i.e., that are intellectually satisfying even to someone who would sincerely like to believe them. Many years ago – after a postgraduate stint at a Baptist seminary, active involvement with Campus Crusade for Christ and my own studies of such heavyweight theologians as Barth and Tillich – I finally said: “I’m no longer going to pretend to believe things that are contrary to common sense and logic, my own life experience and my innate sense of what any creator of the universe could possibly be like. I’m no longer going to try to believe things that I simply can’t believe.”

I didn’t make these statements in an arrogant way. I remember many times, when I was active in Campus Crusade or a student at the Baptist seminary, saying to my wife: “In some ways, it would be great to be as simple as these folks seem to be. In some ways, I really envy their ability to accept without question things that strike me as utterly unbelievable.” And I meant it. How much simpler life would be if one could cling to the Bible as though every line were the inerrant Word of God and to the Sunday School view of reality preached in a Baptist church. But I, at least, just couldn’t do it – and I could no longer even pretend to do it without feeling as though I was being completely untrue to myself and perhaps risking serious mental problems. I decided to move forward with Paul Tillich's fundamental question as my starting-point: "Why is there anything? Why is there not nothing at all?"

These days, I say that Christianity is the “template” for my beliefs. By this, I mean that Christianity does indeed explain the world in which we live better than any other religion or belief system I’ve studied. It does seem to me that we live in a created universe, that there is a benevolent intelligence behind it, that there is a genuine (non-illusory) distinction between good and evil, and that our world is moving ever-more-rapidly down the path toward the sort of living hell that the Bible predicts for the end times. I believe that the Bible is “true” in some broad theological sense. I can accept that Jesus embodies the qualities of the creator and somehow reconciles me to the creator. I try to live my life as though all this were true, which is my definition of "faith." Beyond this, I suspect – on the basis of my own common sense and logic and my own life experiences (including a fair number of paranormal experiences) – that the ultimate explanation is way more mysterious than anything being preached from the pulpit of any church.

Does this sort of attitude force me to “pick and choose” the parts of the Bible that I find convincing? A-b-s-o-l-u-t-e-l-y. Does it put me in the role of the pot questioning the potter? Undoubtedly it does. Are some of my beliefs well outside of the Christian mainstream? Indeed they are. After many, many years of serious study, for example, I find that the evidence for reincarnation is compelling. Does the fact that I’m a “picking-and-choosing, potter-questioning, reincarnationist, Christian-template believer” bother me at all? Not a bit – I believe that a refusal to abandon common sense and logic, a determination to rely on my own life experiences and studies and to follow the evidence wherever it leads me has strengthened my faith that there is a creator and an afterlife and that our lives have meaning and purpose. I know that this approach gave me and my wife a depth of faith that sustained us through seven years of her breast cancer and eventual death in a way that completely amazed her caregivers and that I’m confident a more superficial religiosity would not have done.

Looking at doctrines such as the Fall of Man and the Atonement in conservative Christian terms, I’m curious as to what sense anyone thinks they make? Taking these doctrines at face value, the creator of the universe allowed a purely evil, supernaturally intelligent being to beguile the first woman into disobeying the creator’s command not to eat the fruit of a particularly attractive tree. When the naive woman (who, by definition, didn’t know the difference between good and evil) succumbed to the urgings of this purely evil, supernaturally intelligent being (as the omniscient creator had always known she would), the creator decided her single act of disobedience had somehow infected mankind for all eternity. Some vast period of time later, the creator made everything OK, at least from his perspective, by sending his son to die on the cross and by this act somehow redeeming mankind and rectifying all wrongs. But thereafter, the creator allowed the purely evil, supernaturally intelligent being to continue to roam the planet for at least 2000+ years, wreaking havoc and leading souls astray while the creator tried to win these souls for himself by working through those who believed in his son and were willing to spread the message of salvation.

Hello? Does this actually strike you as making any sense? Do you have any intelligent response beyond, “That’s what the Bible says, pal – and therefore I believe it”? Believe me, I’m not being hostile here. I was astounded when I began my serious study of doctrines such as the Fall and the Atonement to find that there are several, largely inconsistent “theories” as to what they mean and how they work – i.e., there is nothing vaguely resembling agreement, even among theologians. And none of it made sense to me, except at the level of: “Well, let’s at least see if we can try to logically connect the dots in some mathematical-equation sort of way that doesn’t make the core doctrines sound completely absurd.”

What does make sense to me is that the creator’s purpose for all of creation (i.e., angels and humans alike) is to produce beings who have made a conscious choice between good and evil and established their worthiness to be part of his kingdom. Without a dimension of evil, there would be no opportunity to make moral choices and accomplish spiritual growth. So I don’t believe that “Satan and his minions” are “at war with the creator” in any sense resembling that in which a typical Christian uses these phrases; I believe that evil is an integral part of the creator’s plan for creation and serves the creator’s purpose. The “Fall” occurs on an individual basis. I further believe that Jesus is the creator’s illustration to mankind of what “godliness” looks like, as well as the creator’s message to mankind that those who fail to measure up to this standard can still be accepted into the kingdom. This to me is the “Atonement.” I realize that this is scarcely mainstream Christianity, and I’m not trying to convert anyone – which is why I always jokingly describe myself as nothing more than Pastor Lance of The Church of What Lance Believes.

But I would be curious to know how those of reasonable intelligence who have given serious thought to the matter are able to cling to traditional notions of the Fall of Man and the Atonement.
 
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bling

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I think it is good to question and not just hold to traditions. I think you have been miss taught and drawn some bad conclusions. I have no problem being very logical about God’s word and would love to study this logically with you. I teach adults and College age students in Bible study, by mostly just asking questions and answering with questions, but this will take time, so I might work with use some statements (assumptions you can question or agree with.)
Godly type Love, is hard to define that is why I say it is everything Jesus said and did. There are books on Agape Love, you can read CS Lewis on the four loves, if you have time use it to get at least some understanding of Love. I use the following for my definition:
Godly type Love is: selfless, sacrificial, originates from God, thought out, the result of a moral decision to humbly submit to God, chosen over likely perceived alternatives, unconditional, undeserved, required for Christians to do anything righteous, all consuming, initially requires trust, is the major or only motivation for Christians and is a transaction.
The fall:
Everyone is wondering: Why an all Loving God would not put His children in a Garden of Eden type situation without this tree of G&E and without satan running around?
1. God does want us all in a better than the Garden situation in heaven with Him and that idea is supported by God starting with man in the Garden.
2. Man was made as best as man could be made to fulfill his objective and is described by God as very good. Man is not “perfect” like Christ, because he is a made being and Christ was not made. A&E become the best human representatives we could have.
3.Man is here on earth to obtain and grow Godly type Love so he can Love God and others with all his heart, soul, mind, and energy. Christ has always had Godly type Love so He did not have to obtain it. God and Christ will do all they can to help willing individuals fulfill their objective.
4. If A&E had obtained Godly type Love they would have obeyed “…if you Love me you will obey me…” God was Loving them with Godly Love but they did not accept that Love as it was given (unconditionally and undeserving).
5. In the Garden before they sinned there was no reason for A&E to humble themselves enough to accept charity (a free undeserving gift). People do not like to take charity and A&E before sinning had done nothing wrong, so as extremely good Children they could expect their Father to love them as any good parent would love good children and they would love a wonderful parent as any good children would love a wonderful parent. Unfortunately that is not Godly type Love.
6. The sin Eve did would be expected and it is the same way most of us start out sinning, we lust, covey, make selfish decisions, do not seek counseling, feel we are being held back by our care takers, want stuff we know we should not have, are lazy not doing what we should be doing in by helping others, wander to where we should be avoiding, and lessen to those that support us being selfish.
7. Eve did not understand “good and evil” but would have understood right and wrong which was enough to sin.
8. Adam’s sin had to do with his love for Eve Gen. 3 : 17 … "Because you listened to your wife…”. And we know it was different: 1 Tim. 2: 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. I see the A&E story to be the love of “Romeo and Juliet” with Adam not wanting to live without Eve and wanting to go where ever she was going. Adam loved Eve more than he Loved God.
9. The tree and satan being in the Garden, provided a way for A&E and us to see they did not have Godly type Love and were not accepting God’s Love as it was given.
10. The whole Garden situation (which we sometimes think is where a Loving God should put us all) shows A&E and all the rest of us that it is a lousy place to fulfill our objectives and points out the advantages of being where: Christ does go to the cross, satan is around, tragedies happen, heaven, hell and sin.
Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to obey God (inside the Garden)or would you prefer to be in place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent your accepting God’s Love (outside the Garden)?
I’ll give you my short conclusions and you can decide if you want to go there:
  • God is the ultimate Lover, He had to create agents that could Love as He Loves for the sack of those agents that would Love as He Loves.
  • Man’s objective is to Love God with all and Love others.
3. Godly type Love is described by Jesus in both what He did and said and 1Cor:13.
4. God is doing all He can to help those that will Love Him fulfill their objective?
5. The Garden is not the best place to accept/develop Godly type Love in humans, who would want to be in a situation where their eternal close relationship with God was dependent on their own ability to “obey”. Outside the Garden after sinning is where God can grant forgiveness/grace/Love and we can accept Godly type Love from God in the easiest method possible (forgiveness). We then have limited resources to share/ give (Love) to other needy people, we can have hope in the new place better then the Garden, faith in God to keep His promises (forgiveness), and limited time.
6. Satan does what God can not do, hurt innocent people, providing opportunities for those that want to show/ see/ experience Godly type Love.
7. Sin is our responsibility and our fault. God knew humans would sin given the Garden or earthly situation, but that is not God’s desire or God’s fault. Adam and Eve were going to sin at some time in the future and God really could have figured without knowing the “future”, just with an understanding of man and satan what would happen. This earth is not a plan gone bad, but the best place we could have to fulfill our objective.
Unforgiven sin is a huge problem, while forgiven sin is not a problem for the person forgiven. God does not want us to sin and it hurts Him every time we do sin, but He will quench His own desire to help us acquire Godly type Love, which means He allows us to sin. He will allow us to really get ourselves into a ditch so we can find it easy to humbly accept His forgiveness. “He that is forgiven much Loves much…”
Once we accept Godly type Love then we have opportunities to grow that Love, sin is no longer needed, but needy people are. Sin by the Christian doe not provide anything positive for the Loving Christian, but sinning by a non Christian, burden by his sins are opportunities.

Atonement;
Penal Substitution comes up in talking with philosophers, agnostics, atheists and Muslims, but is rarely discussed in sermons. I could use some help developing my ideas.
What is at issue?
1. Is there some overriding “Law” that would prevent God from forgiving sins without the shedding of blood?
2. There are benefits to punishment of the wicked: Punishment is part of discipline and has lots of benefits that God would be fully aware of:
a. Deterrent to crime
b. Measures the offence (the greater the offence the greater the punishment)
c. Shows you are truly a child because parents see to it that their children are punished for their crimes.
d. It is fair and just, there needs to be consistency.
e. There is closure with punishment (You do the time for the crime and you can move on).
3. The idea of punishing the innocent instead of punishing the guilty, even if the innocent is OK with it, is not just and fair.
4. I have offended God so it is just and fair for God to see to it that I am punished me, so if Christ is taking my place is God punishing Christ?
5. If Christ is replacing me, then is Christ not also replacing everyone else, so does that not mean universal salvation for everyone?
6. What is the relationship between forgiveness of sin and punishment for sin?
If there are other issues please help me understand them.
The solution I have come up is the result of trying to address these issues and considering the impact on me if Christ had not gone to the cross.
In thinking about God;
1. Did God suffer while Christ was on the cross? Why?
2. Could we say that God suffered more than Christ?
3. Could God not have prevented Christ from ever going to the cross?
In thinking about me;
1. When I/you realized and understood some things about Christ going cross did I/you suffer?
2. Why , when and how much did I/you suffer?
3. Could I (personally) have kept Christ from going to the cross?
4. If I had not sinned then there would have been another way for man to fulfill his objective without Christ having to go to the cross, so can I feel some personal responsibility? 5. Could I handle the physical punishment required for the offence of sin?

Response to the issues:
1. God can forgive without punishment of the guilty, but since there is benefit to punishment and a Loving parent would make sure His children were punished than God will have to make a way for His Children to be punished.
2. A. We are the offender and do not want to sin again, which is throwing salt on the wounds of Christ and others, see the severity of sin by see what Christ went though.
B. The punishment to us which is felt with Christ’s physical and mental suffering, should/could be in proportion to our sins?
C. God as our Parent is seeing to it that we are punished, by allowing a willing Christ to be tortured.
D. It is just to us since we as the guilty are being punished, it is not “just” or fair to Christ, but God is not punishing Christ. God is allowing wicked children of satan to torture Christ, but that is the way God works all the time. God allows satan’s children to do terrible things that provide opportunities for those that are willing or will become willing through their mistakes to repent and accept His Love in the form of forgiveness. The murder of Christ did become a real piercing part of Peter’s message in Acts 2:38.
E. We do not feel the need to be further punished for our sins. We can look back on the cross with mixed emotions since great sorrow and great Love are both there.
3. Christ going to the cross provide another way for us to be punished without physically taking the punishment for our sins, but we were still punished so He is not taking our punishment away, but allowing for a different form of punishment. Christ being physically punished meant that we did not have to be physically punished.
4. God is not punishing Christ instead of us, but allowing Christ to be tortured and die, so we do not have to experience the physical punishment of our sins.
5. The nonbeliever is not punished by Christ going to the cross, so his punishment still awaits him.
6. Since we have received the benefits from being punished than God can mercifully forgive us. If forgiveness came before the punishment it would not be fair to punish us.
 
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Lanny P

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bling, I appreciate your thoughtful response and your willingness to discuss some thorny issues. It seems to me that you're in much the same position as I am. It seems to me that, perhaps less explicitly than me, you've "redefined" or at least “reinterpreted” some of the conservative doctrines in a way that makes them more emotionally and intellectually satisfying. I believe that each of us should give deep and serious thought to doctrines such as the Fall and the Atonement (and to the existence of God, for that matter) in order to arrive at a meaningful faith that really guides our lives and really sustains us in the face of life’s challenges; I believe that this is what the creator would want us to do, or the creator wouldn’t have given us the capacity to do it.

Much of what you’re saying doesn’t strike me as wildly different from the way that I characterized my own beliefs in my penultimate paragraph (the one beginning “What does make sense to me …”). You say, “Everyone is wondering: Why an all Loving God would not put His children in a Garden of Eden type situation without this tree of G&E and without Satan running around?” The points that you then make in response to this question are really quite similar to my own thinking. At least as I understand what you’re saying, it’s “somewhat” different from what I’m saying, but not “wildly” different.

What both of us are saying does strike me as considerably different from what is taught in a Southern Baptist seminary (at least the one that I went to) or in Campus Crusade (at least when I was a member) or from what I hear on American Family Radio when I drive to and from work (at least for as long as I can stand to listen!). By the way, I have read most of C. S. Lewis, and he’s just never resonated with me the way that I know he does with some people. He just happens to be one of those authors to whom my response is: “Well, OK, if what you’re saying actually makes sense to you, and you actually think that this is how the creator of the universe would operate, you’re welcome to your beliefs – but I can’t pound my round mind into your particular square hole, and I’m not going to make myself crazy trying to do so.”

I should also reemphasize that I’m not putting down anyone. I seem to have a penchant for irritating diehard fundamentalists, but I always remind myself and everyone else that the most rigid fundamentalist could ultimately prove to be 100% correct or even that the reality of it all could be far different from what any of us now believe. Apparently, some quite intelligent people do accept the conservative doctrines more or less as outlined in my paragraph beginning “Looking at doctrines such as the Fall of Man and the Atonement in conservative Christian terms, ….” My point was simply that these doctrines have never been emotionally or intellectually satisfying to me and that I think I would have gone off of a mental cliff if I had tried to cling to them. The statement with which I concluded my original post – and to which I received zero responses – was: “But I would be curious to know how those of reasonable intelligence who have given serious thought to the matter are able to cling to traditional notions of the Fall of Man and the Atonement.”

I view your response – which is indeed appreciated, and is obviously the work of an intelligent believer who has given serious thought to the matter – as being less how you’ve managed to “cling to traditional notions” than how you’ve managed to “make sense” of doctrines like the Fall and the Atonement in arriving at a deep and meaningful faith. And that’s where I’d like to think that I'm at as well, even if it has left me as the “pastor” of a “one-person church.” Anyway, I’ll have to give much more thought to your response than I’m able to do right now – and I will.
 
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bling

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I have been out of town, so did not get back to you. I hope you are still trying to unstand my openning post.

As far as people clinging to the old ideas, they mostly have other bigger issues.
Work with them on their issues and they make a little on your issues with you. I really do not read what others have to say, but use scripture, pray, meditation, allowing time for the spirit to answer and other people to discuss it with. The hardest question is always "Why do I really want to know"? (How will it change my life for the better?)
 
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sawdust

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But I would be curious to know how those of reasonable intelligence who have given serious thought to the matter are able to cling to traditional notions of the Fall of Man and the Atonement.

I can empathise with your post. It took me forty years to find a pastor who could make logical sense of God's word. I'm the sort of person who needs all the details so I can connect every dot before I'm satisfied and frankly I find the level of teaching in most Churches to be very basic.



peace
 
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Lanny P

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bling, I have indeed reviewed your original post, and I truly don’t think that what you are saying is wildly different from my own beliefs. But what you are saying is quite different from what I hear in a Baptist church or on conservative Christian television and radio. Let me say, hopefully without sounding arrogant, that I wrote my thesis in seminary -- my very bad thesis, as I look back now -- 37 years ago on “The Origin of Evil: Toward a Conservative Christian Theodicy,” so it’s not as though I haven’t given these issues a lot of thought. And I have been a lawyer for nearly 30 years, so I am used to analyzing issues logically. (I’m definitely not saying this arrogantly, because my opinion of the legal profession could hardly be lower!) I left Campus Crusade and seminary many years ago because I simply could not accept the superficial silliness (to me, anyway) of the doctrines being taught. I once again find myself attending a Baptist church for reasons that aren’t important here, and I once again find myself befuddled that intelligent people seem willing to accept without question doctrines that seem illogical and emotionally and intellectually unsatisfying to me. My original post was a sincere invitation (unaccepted by anyone, as it turns out) to those who accept the “conventional” explanations of the Fall and the Atonement to explain to me how they manage to make sense of these doctrines that seem to me to be so superficial and so inconsistent with the notion of an omniscient, omnipotent, holy, loving, just Creator.

You accepted my invitation, but it seems to me that what you have provided is an explanation of how you have “reinterpreted” the conventional doctrines in arriving at a Christian faith that makes sense to you. Which is precisely what I have done. There is nothing in your post about “fallen angels,” “war in Heaven,” the wily Satan tempting Eve in contravention of God’s wishes, Eve’s sin infecting all mankind (and indeed all of creation), the ongoing “battle” between God and Satan for men’s souls, yada yada yada. I’m talking about the sort of “theology” found in the “Left Behind” series of books. I listened to them all on CD and thought they were GREAT entertainment (as did a friend of mine who is as far from a Christian as one could get) but absolutely laugh-out-loud “theology.” I don’t want to put words in your mouth, and forgive me if you actually consider yourself to be in strong disagreement with my views, but as I review your original post I see someone who agrees at least in broad terms with my own beliefs: That evil is not “at war” with God’s plan for man, but is actually an essential part of God’s plan for man ... that the prevalence of evil in our world is essential to God’s plan for us to mature as moral beings and to experience God’s unique love ... that the “fall” occurs on an individual basis, as we inevitably fall below God’s standard of holiness (or even goodness) ... that Christ is God reaching down to man, demonstrating what godliness looks like, showing God’s willingness to suffer with us, assuring us of his love despite our failings, and inviting us to accept his gift of entry into his kingdom. This is a theology that at least makes sense to me and is consistent with the notion of an omniscient, omnipotent, holy, loving, just Creator.

And sawdust, thanks to you too -- it's always good to encounter people who have been on a similar quest and understand that "questioning" is by no means the same thing as "rejecting" or "disbelieving."
 
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Epiphoskei

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There's a basic problem with applying our modern notion of reason to revelation. Reason depends upon comparitive study. In the central matters of the Christian faith, there exist no alternate realities we can examine to determine standars of reasonability. What we end up doing is taking our own standards of what is reasonable in our own limited existance and applying that to all of existance. And, of course, we have no way of knowing if that is appropriate, because, again, we have no standards of reasonability based on empirical study of the divine.
 
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Lanny P

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Hi, Epiphoskei --

This is a great point, although I’m not entirely sure whether you’re agreeing with me or disagreeing with me. I fully agree that the process of reasoning depends on comparisons (“Is it X, or is it Y?”) and can take one only so far. My absolute favorite book is the little-known “Secret Splendor” by Charles Ernest Essert (1973), who makes the same point. His point is that we must recognize that ultimate reality (or God, in Christian terms) is a transcendent oneness that can never be grasped through a process of comparative reasoning or dualistic thinking. He uses the term “intuition” to describe the human faculty that transcends dualistic thinking and may give some insights into the divine -- but only “some" insights, because due to human limitations we can only grasp the divine to the extent that it reveals itself (or we eventually enter into unity with it).

HOWEVER, it is also undeniable that we have been blessed with minds capable of analyzing an issue logically. My belief is that we ought to let the process of analytical thinking take us as far as it can, while recognizing that it is never going to lead to a true appreciation or experience of the divine. At that point we do what Essert suggests -- rely on intuition and faith, while accepting that we are never really going to KNOW the reality (at least in this lifetime, barring an event like the Second Coming). What I see in groups whose thinking seems superficial to me is a SHUTTING DOWN of the ability to think analytically: “I will cling to these doctrines even if they are illogical and defy common sense, and I will steer clear of any books or discussions challenging them, simply because they purport to be divine revelation.” I happen to live in an area dominated by a sect that is pretty obviously a historical fraud, yet I’m surrounded by highly intelligent people who accept its doctrines as though they were zombies. In my observation, they manage to do this by “compartmentalizing” their reasoning skills and their religious beliefs -- one doesn’t overlap the other. I realize that God is not required to “make sense” in human terms and that God’s perspective is undoubtedly quite different from that of ours, but I at least believe that I’ve been blessed with a mind and the capacity to think logically for a reason. So my approach is to let my mind take me as far as it can, and then rely on intuition, faith (and, as I said in one of my posts, a few transcendent experiences).

If you mean that you think I should accept the words of the Bible as direct revelation and not apply reasoning skills in this context -- then, yes, we would be in disagreement. But even if this is the case, I think you've raised an important issue and I appreciate your response.
 
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bling

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bling, I have indeed reviewed your original post, and I truly don’t think that what you are saying is wildly different from my own beliefs. But what you are saying is quite different from what I hear in a Baptist church or on conservative Christian television and radio. Let me say, hopefully without sounding arrogant, that I wrote my thesis in seminary -- my very bad thesis, as I look back now -- 37 years ago on “The Origin of Evil: Toward a Conservative Christian Theodicy,” so it’s not as though I haven’t given these issues a lot of thought. And I have been a lawyer for nearly 30 years, so I am used to analyzing issues logically. (I’m definitely not saying this arrogantly, because my opinion of the legal profession could hardly be lower!) I left Campus Crusade and seminary many years ago because I simply could not accept the superficial silliness (to me, anyway) of the doctrines being taught. I once again find myself attending a Baptist church for reasons that aren’t important here, and I once again find myself befuddled that intelligent people seem willing to accept without question doctrines that seem illogical and emotionally and intellectually unsatisfying to me. My original post was a sincere invitation (unaccepted by anyone, as it turns out) to those who accept the “conventional” explanations of the Fall and the Atonement to explain to me how they manage to make sense of these doctrines that seem to me to be so superficial and so inconsistent with the notion of an omniscient, omnipotent, holy, loving, just Creator.

You accepted my invitation, but it seems to me that what you have provided is an explanation of how you have “reinterpreted” the conventional doctrines in arriving at a Christian faith that makes sense to you. Which is precisely what I have done. There is nothing in your post about “fallen angels,” “war in Heaven,” the wily Satan tempting Eve in contravention of God’s wishes, Eve’s sin infecting all mankind (and indeed all of creation), the ongoing “battle” between God and Satan for men’s souls, yada yada yada. I’m talking about the sort of “theology” found in the “Left Behind” series of books. I listened to them all on CD and thought they were GREAT entertainment (as did a friend of mine who is as far from a Christian as one could get) but absolutely laugh-out-loud “theology.” I don’t want to put words in your mouth, and forgive me if you actually consider yourself to be in strong disagreement with my views, but as I review your original post I see someone who agrees at least in broad terms with my own beliefs: That evil is not “at war” with God’s plan for man, but is actually an essential part of God’s plan for man ... that the prevalence of evil in our world is essential to God’s plan for us to mature as moral beings and to experience God’s unique love ... that the “fall” occurs on an individual basis, as we inevitably fall below God’s standard of holiness (or even goodness) ... that Christ is God reaching down to man, demonstrating what godliness looks like, showing God’s willingness to suffer with us, assuring us of his love despite our failings, and inviting us to accept his gift of entry into his kingdom. This is a theology that at least makes sense to me and is consistent with the notion of an omniscient, omnipotent, holy, loving, just Creator.

And sawdust, thanks to you too -- it's always good to encounter people who have been on a similar quest and understand that "questioning" is by no means the same thing as "rejecting" or "disbelieving."
Lanny, thank you for your comments. Generally I have a problem with all denominations. I go to a non-denominational Church now and they let me teach those that want to be challenged. There are lots of things wrong, but there are some really good people wanting to grow. I really do not “blame” any of them or anyone, but believe if I just did what I know to be right and live like Christ the world would be a different place. It does not take lots of money, huge organizations and “charismatic” leaders. Look at the example Christ established for evangelizing the world, (small groups, spending lots of time together in all types of situations, the leader truly being led by the indwelling Holy Spirit, everyone growing at their own pace, always serving others [the group and others outside the group, but mostly close by] to present the right message, expecting some will fail, not pushing growing at their own pass, making the group think, leading through questions, not really needing to travel great distances, and allowing them to lead their own group with the indwelling Holy Spirit leading them). Lanny, if you had done this over the last 36 years and averaged just one leader per year (someone like you that is like Christ) then today all 6+ billion people would be in small groups, but you might still not be known for what you started or held in any great esteem then what you have today. (All the praise would be going to God and there is no money in doing it this way).
I have two master degrees one in business and the other in Chemistry, but I got my real education trying to teach just one hour Sunday school class some 13-21 yr olds in a youth prison. I had moved to Raleigh, NC with a good job, out of College really thinking I knew it all. This was a very strange Church (spiritually strong) that had a prison program and I had been involved in all kind of church stuff (teaching intercity, scouting, camps, & college campuses) so I wanted to add this to my résumé. I had no idea, what I had gotten into. This group in prison had grown rapidly to 40 Christians and 20 or so other attendees. They had 4 teachers, with groups of 15 each in the gym with other prisons looking on. In the group there were different groups: 1.Those that were just “going to school” (intentionally got in trouble when they came and then slowly got better after attending Bible class, this was all a show for me, the guards, warden, and parole board so they would be paroled at their first review. All the prisoners knew they had not changed, still were members of a gang and carried a weapon.) these were no trouble. 2. There were those that had been “converted” by granny, before coming to prison, but after getting to prison the sneaks and snitches watch them, laugh at dirty jocks, waste time watching TV, not try to tell them about Christ, not spend all their free time in Bible study, praying and studying with other Christians, so these snitches told the Bulls that this prison is no Christian and the bulls would go after him. The only reason he was in the study was to tell granny that visited what he had learned that morning when she visited him (he was in a gang and carried a weapon). They were no problem. 3. There were prisoners with little to do and were there checking it out. They knew very little so their questions were easy. They were no problem. 4. Then there are the Christian fanatics, they study constantly, cannot be seen as doing anything even questionable wrong, because they are being watch constantly by snitches for a slip up and that means taken a beating or death or watching a fellow Christian be beaten that came to your rescue from a gang, all their possessions have been taken at their conversion, the guards did not like them because these prisoners want to teach them and the guards where having to be physically rescued often, they went everywhere they could together, witnessed constantly, a year ago they could barely read and now were studying the Greek. They discussed and studied my one hour less for at least 20 hours prior to my class, they had questions. They mainly wanted to know about how “we” applied the scripture on the other side of the wall one prisoner described their world as being similar to pre-civilized and quoted from Homer (which I knew nothing about). I was a hypocrite and tried to lie may way out, they asked me why I was lying for they knew when people lie and I was poor at it. I spite of my help at least one has gone on to get a PhD in theology and is a missionary in Africa.
T here are true Christians out there, but you have to look hard.
 
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brinny

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Try as I might, I’ve been unable to find explanations of such core Christian doctrines as the Fall of Man and the Atonement that make sense to me – i.e., that are intellectually satisfying even to someone who would sincerely like to believe them. Many years ago – after a postgraduate stint at a Baptist seminary, active involvement with Campus Crusade for Christ and my own studies of such heavyweight theologians as Barth and Tillich – I finally said: “I’m no longer going to pretend to believe things that are contrary to common sense and logic, my own life experience and my innate sense of what any creator of the universe could possibly be like. I’m no longer going to try to believe things that I simply can’t believe.”

I didn’t make these statements in an arrogant way. I remember many times, when I was active in Campus Crusade or a student at the Baptist seminary, saying to my wife: “In some ways, it would be great to be as simple as these folks seem to be. In some ways, I really envy their ability to accept without question things that strike me as utterly unbelievable.” And I meant it. How much simpler life would be if one could cling to the Bible as though every line were the inerrant Word of God and to the Sunday School view of reality preached in a Baptist church. But I, at least, just couldn’t do it – and I could no longer even pretend to do it without feeling as though I was being completely untrue to myself and perhaps risking serious mental problems. I decided to move forward with Paul Tillich's fundamental question as my starting-point: "Why is there anything? Why is there not nothing at all?"

These days, I say that Christianity is the “template” for my beliefs. By this, I mean that Christianity does indeed explain the world in which we live better than any other religion or belief system I’ve studied. It does seem to me that we live in a created universe, that there is a benevolent intelligence behind it, that there is a genuine (non-illusory) distinction between good and evil, and that our world is moving ever-more-rapidly down the path toward the sort of living hell that the Bible predicts for the end times. I believe that the Bible is “true” in some broad theological sense. I can accept that Jesus embodies the qualities of the creator and somehow reconciles me to the creator. I try to live my life as though all this were true, which is my definition of "faith." Beyond this, I suspect – on the basis of my own common sense and logic and my own life experiences (including a fair number of paranormal experiences) – that the ultimate explanation is way more mysterious than anything being preached from the pulpit of any church.

Does this sort of attitude force me to “pick and choose” the parts of the Bible that I find convincing? A-b-s-o-l-u-t-e-l-y. Does it put me in the role of the pot questioning the potter? Undoubtedly it does. Are some of my beliefs well outside of the Christian mainstream? Indeed they are. After many, many years of serious study, for example, I find that the evidence for reincarnation is compelling. Does the fact that I’m a “picking-and-choosing, potter-questioning, reincarnationist, Christian-template believer” bother me at all? Not a bit – I believe that a refusal to abandon common sense and logic, a determination to rely on my own life experiences and studies and to follow the evidence wherever it leads me has strengthened my faith that there is a creator and an afterlife and that our lives have meaning and purpose. I know that this approach gave me and my wife a depth of faith that sustained us through seven years of her breast cancer and eventual death in a way that completely amazed her caregivers and that I’m confident a more superficial religiosity would not have done.

Looking at doctrines such as the Fall of Man and the Atonement in conservative Christian terms, I’m curious as to what sense anyone thinks they make? Taking these doctrines at face value, the creator of the universe allowed a purely evil, supernaturally intelligent being to beguile the first woman into disobeying the creator’s command not to eat the fruit of a particularly attractive tree. When the naive woman (who, by definition, didn’t know the difference between good and evil) succumbed to the urgings of this purely evil, supernaturally intelligent being (as the omniscient creator had always known she would), the creator decided her single act of disobedience had somehow infected mankind for all eternity. Some vast period of time later, the creator made everything OK, at least from his perspective, by sending his son to die on the cross and by this act somehow redeeming mankind and rectifying all wrongs. But thereafter, the creator allowed the purely evil, supernaturally intelligent being to continue to roam the planet for at least 2000+ years, wreaking havoc and leading souls astray while the creator tried to win these souls for himself by working through those who believed in his son and were willing to spread the message of salvation.

Hello? Does this actually strike you as making any sense? Do you have any intelligent response beyond, “That’s what the Bible says, pal – and therefore I believe it”? Believe me, I’m not being hostile here. I was astounded when I began my serious study of doctrines such as the Fall and the Atonement to find that there are several, largely inconsistent “theories” as to what they mean and how they work – i.e., there is nothing vaguely resembling agreement, even among theologians. And none of it made sense to me, except at the level of: “Well, let’s at least see if we can try to logically connect the dots in some mathematical-equation sort of way that doesn’t make the core doctrines sound completely absurd.”

What does make sense to me is that the creator’s purpose for all of creation (i.e., angels and humans alike) is to produce beings who have made a conscious choice between good and evil and established their worthiness to be part of his kingdom. Without a dimension of evil, there would be no opportunity to make moral choices and accomplish spiritual growth. So I don’t believe that “Satan and his minions” are “at war with the creator” in any sense resembling that in which a typical Christian uses these phrases; I believe that evil is an integral part of the creator’s plan for creation and serves the creator’s purpose. The “Fall” occurs on an individual basis. I further believe that Jesus is the creator’s illustration to mankind of what “godliness” looks like, as well as the creator’s message to mankind that those who fail to measure up to this standard can still be accepted into the kingdom. This to me is the “Atonement.” I realize that this is scarcely mainstream Christianity, and I’m not trying to convert anyone – which is why I always jokingly describe myself as nothing more than Pastor Lance of The Church of What Lance Believes.

But I would be curious to know how those of reasonable intelligence who have given serious thought to the matter are able to cling to traditional notions of the Fall of Man and the Atonement.

God commands us to not trust the wisdom of man, but to seek His wisdom, for His thoughts are not our thoughts:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." ~Isaiah 55:8

surely you are aware of this, brother in Christ and son of the Most High God. It is written.
 
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Zeena

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“Looking at doctrines such as the Fall of Man and the Atonement in conservative Christian terms, ….” My point was simply that these doctrines have never been emotionally or intellectually satisfying to me and that I think I would have gone off of a mental cliff if I had tried to cling to them. The statement with which I concluded my original post – and to which I received zero responses – was: “But I would be curious to know how those of reasonable intelligence who have given serious thought to the matter are able to cling to traditional notions of the Fall of Man and the Atonement.”

I view your response – which is indeed appreciated, and is obviously the work of an intelligent believer who has given serious thought to the matter – as being less how you’ve managed to “cling to traditional notions” than how you’ve managed to “make sense” of doctrines like the Fall and the Atonement in arriving at a deep and meaningful faith. And that’s where I’d like to think that I'm at as well, even if it has left me as the “pastor” of a “one-person church.” Anyway, I’ll have to give much more thought to your response than I’m able to do right now – and I will.
We all need to understand with our reason, and seek the Lord in all things Lanny, and I believe this is a process of sanctifying the Lord God in your heart, if you are willing ye shall eat the fat of the land.. but if you refuse..
Oh, well, let's carry on, at least for the time being, OK? :prayer:

The theory of original sin is false.
It is the doctine of a man influenced by Manicheanism, namely one Augustine of the Roman Catholic church. From which [both the theory of original sin as well as the Roman Catholic church] many, many errors have flowed..

ARE MEN BORN SINNERS? THE MYTH OF ORIGINAL SIN: TABLE OF CONTENTS
 
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ittarter

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Try as I might, I’ve been unable to find explanations of such core Christian doctrines as the Fall of Man and the Atonement that make sense to me – i.e., that are intellectually satisfying even to someone who would sincerely like to believe them. Many years ago – after a postgraduate stint at a Baptist seminary, active involvement with Campus Crusade for Christ and my own studies of such heavyweight theologians as Barth and Tillich – I finally said: “I’m no longer going to pretend to believe things that are contrary to common sense and logic, my own life experience and my innate sense of what any creator of the universe could possibly be like. I’m no longer going to try to believe things that I simply can’t believe.”

[I didn’t make these statements in an arrogant way. I remember many times, when I was active in Campus Crusade or a student at the Baptist seminary, saying to my wife: “In some ways, it would be great to be as simple as these folks seem to be. In some ways, I really envy their ability to accept without question things that strike me as utterly unbelievable.” And I meant it. How much simpler life would be if one could cling to the Bible as though every line were the inerrant Word of God and to the Sunday School view of reality preached in a Baptist church. But I, at least, just couldn’t do it – and I could no longer even pretend to do it without feeling as though I was being completely untrue to myself and perhaps risking serious mental problems. I decided to move forward with Paul Tillich's fundamental question as my starting-point: "Why is there anything? Why is there not nothing at all?"

These days, I say that Christianity is the “template” for my beliefs. By this, I mean that Christianity does indeed explain the world in which we live better than any other religion or belief system I’ve studied. It does seem to me that we live in a created universe, that there is a benevolent intelligence behind it, that there is a genuine (non-illusory) distinction between good and evil, and that our world is moving ever-more-rapidly down the path toward the sort of living hell that the Bible predicts for the end times. I believe that the Bible is “true” in some broad theological sense. I can accept that Jesus embodies the qualities of the creator and somehow reconciles me to the creator. I try to live my life as though all this were true, which is my definition of "faith." Beyond this, I suspect – on the basis of my own common sense and logic and my own life experiences (including a fair number of paranormal experiences) – that the ultimate explanation is way more mysterious than anything being preached from the pulpit of any church.

Does this sort of attitude force me to “pick and choose” the parts of the Bible that I find convincing? A-b-s-o-l-u-t-e-l-y. Does it put me in the role of the pot questioning the potter? Undoubtedly it does. Are some of my beliefs well outside of the Christian mainstream? Indeed they are. After many, many years of serious study, for example, I find that the evidence for reincarnation is compelling. Does the fact that I’m a “picking-and-choosing, potter-questioning, reincarnationist, Christian-template believer” bother me at all? Not a bit – I believe that a refusal to abandon common sense and logic, a determination to rely on my own life experiences and studies and to follow the evidence wherever it leads me has strengthened my faith that there is a creator and an afterlife and that our lives have meaning and purpose. I know that this approach gave me and my wife a depth of faith that sustained us through seven years of her breast cancer and eventual death in a way that completely amazed her caregivers and that I’m confident a more superficial religiosity would not have done.
Awesome. I fully support the paradigmatic shift you experienced. If you are interested in reflecting more on what happened to you, cognitively speaking, I recommend James Fowler's Stages of Faith: The Psychology of Human Development and the Quest for Meaning. He outlines five stage of faith and their defining characteristics. You have reached what he calls "individuative-reflective" faith, which demythologizes one's cognitive commitments in order to construct a personal and explicit meaning-system, one that is rationally defensible and attends to the reality behind a given symbol rather than the symbol itself. Does this sound about right to you?

Looking at doctrines such as the Fall of Man and the Atonement in conservative Christian terms, I’m curious as to what sense anyone thinks they make? Taking these doctrines at face value, the creator of the universe allowed a purely evil, supernaturally intelligent being to beguile the first woman into disobeying the creator’s command not to eat the fruit of a particularly attractive tree. When the naive woman (who, by definition, didn’t know the difference between good and evil) succumbed to the urgings of this purely evil, supernaturally intelligent being (as the omniscient creator had always known she would), the creator decided her single act of disobedience had somehow infected mankind for all eternity. Some vast period of time later, the creator made everything OK, at least from his perspective, by sending his son to die on the cross and by this act somehow redeeming mankind and rectifying all wrongs. But thereafter, the creator allowed the purely evil, supernaturally intelligent being to continue to roam the planet for at least 2000+ years, wreaking havoc and leading souls astray while the creator tried to win these souls for himself by working through those who believed in his son and were willing to spread the message of salvation.

Hello? Does this actually strike you as making any sense? Do you have any intelligent response beyond, “That’s what the Bible says, pal – and therefore I believe it”? Believe me, I’m not being hostile here. I was astounded when I began my serious study of doctrines such as the Fall and the Atonement to find that there are several, largely inconsistent “theories” as to what they mean and how they work – i.e., there is nothing vaguely resembling agreement, even among theologians. And none of it made sense to me, except at the level of: “Well, let’s at least see if we can try to logically connect the dots in some mathematical-equation sort of way that doesn’t make the core doctrines sound completely absurd.”
You're right. It doesn't make logical sense. The funny thing is that those who believe it don't seem to really care whether it's logical or not. I'd suggest that the valuation of rational belief is due to your own cognitive choice, which is itself ultimately self-fulfilling. By this I mean, It's rational to believe only that which is rational, but the positive value assumed here for "It's rational" is ignored by the majority of Christians (and religious people generally), not to mention the writers of their sacred texts, or what we can still make out of their cognitive states in light of extant documentation.

In other words, who says life needs to make sense to you? This supposition is simply an adult version of the belief that, if I close my eyes, the world ceases to exist.

What does make sense to me is that the creator’s purpose for all of creation (i.e., angels and humans alike) is to produce beings who have made a conscious choice between good and evil and established their worthiness to be part of his kingdom. Without a dimension of evil, there would be no opportunity to make moral choices and accomplish spiritual growth. So I don’t believe that “Satan and his minions” are “at war with the creator” in any sense resembling that in which a typical Christian uses these phrases; I believe that evil is an integral part of the creator’s plan for creation and serves the creator’s purpose. The “Fall” occurs on an individual basis. I further believe that Jesus is the creator’s illustration to mankind of what “godliness” looks like, as well as the creator’s message to mankind that those who fail to measure up to this standard can still be accepted into the kingdom. This to me is the “Atonement.” I realize that this is scarcely mainstream Christianity, and I’m not trying to convert anyone – which is why I always jokingly describe myself as nothing more than Pastor Lance of The Church of What Lance Believes.
And you think that if you examine this closely, you will not find any logical difficulties that will need explaining, rationalizing, defending? Then how are these beliefs qualitatively different from those you have left behind? The only difference is that these "make sense" to you, and the others don't. Are we to then conclude that religious belief is at the mercy of personal preference?

But I would be curious to know how those of reasonable intelligence who have given serious thought to the matter are able to cling to traditional notions of the Fall of Man and the Atonement.
It's actually pretty simple. The recognition of the truth of the Fall of Man corresponds to a fundamentally ethical world in which human beings are ultimately responsible to a power greater than themselves. The infinite transcendence of this being is marked by our inability to live in such a way that satisfies that responsibility. Consequently, it is that greater power which must find a way in which he can satisfy that responsibility for us.

Of course, there are many ways to understand the significance of the Fall and the Atonement, but to recognize more than one is to go beyond what you call "traditional notions," which are in fact only as old as the 17th century. Before that, the doctrines of the fall and the atonement were much less exclusive in nature. Anyway, that's why I limited myself to what is, basically, the "penal substitution" interpretation of the fall/atonement.

When you yourself retold these doctrines, you emphasized a number of non-essential elements, which, yes, are pretty ridiculous from a rational perspective, but no more ridiculous than your claim (for example) that the choice between good and evil demonstrates one's worthiness for happiness. What is more useful to consider is the purpose of those stories, rather than their form.

You sound like a good guy, and these comments are intended to help you not make the same mistake with this set of beliefs that you made with the last set of beliefs, namely, that because they make sense to you, that means that you're right and "those other people" are pitiable and deeply misguided. A lot of smart people get lulled into that, because they hang out with people with insufficient skills in critical thinking (or, alternatively, a total lack of interest) to pick apart their smart friend's "progressive" beliefs. I was (and still am, sometimes) one of them ;)

Cheers.
 
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Zeena

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I awoke from my sleeping crying..

I had an epiphany of sorts..

Jesus died because we were sold as slaves under sin through our own volition.

Dominion belonged to the devil, and He purchased men back to God by His Blood.

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

1 Peter 1:18-19
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Isaiah 62:12
And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

Jeremiah 31:11
For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.

------------

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Numbers 15:28
And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

1 Thessalonians 5:10
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

-----

Revelation 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

2 Corinthians 5:14
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

2 Corinthians 5:15
And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

.
 
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bling

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Awesome. I fully support the paradigmatic shift you experienced. If you are interested in reflecting more on what happened to you, cognitively speaking, I recommend James Fowler's Stages of Faith: The Psychology of Human Development and the Quest for Meaning. He outlines five stage of faith and their defining characteristics. You have reached what he calls "individuative-reflective" faith, which demythologizes one's cognitive commitments in order to construct a personal and explicit meaning-system, one that is rationally defensible and attends to the reality behind a given symbol rather than the symbol itself. Does this sound about right to you?

You're right. It doesn't make logical sense. The funny thing is that those who believe it don't seem to really care whether it's logical or not. I'd suggest that the valuation of rational belief is due to your own cognitive choice, which is itself ultimately self-fulfilling. By this I mean, It's rational to believe only that which is rational, but the positive value assumed here for "It's rational" is ignored by the majority of Christians (and religious people generally), not to mention the writers of their sacred texts, or what we can still make out of their cognitive states in light of extant documentation.

In other words, who says life needs to make sense to you? This supposition is simply an adult version of the belief that, if I close my eyes, the world ceases to exist.

And you think that if you examine this closely, you will not find any logical difficulties that will need explaining, rationalizing, defending? Then how are these beliefs qualitatively different from those you have left behind? The only difference is that these "make sense" to you, and the others don't. Are we to then conclude that religious belief is at the mercy of personal preference?

It's actually pretty simple. The recognition of the truth of the Fall of Man corresponds to a fundamentally ethical world in which human beings are ultimately responsible to a power greater than themselves. The infinite transcendence of this being is marked by our inability to live in such a way that satisfies that responsibility. Consequently, it is that greater power which must find a way in which he can satisfy that responsibility for us.

Of course, there are many ways to understand the significance of the Fall and the Atonement, but to recognize more than one is to go beyond what you call "traditional notions," which are in fact only as old as the 17th century. Before that, the doctrines of the fall and the atonement were much less exclusive in nature. Anyway, that's why I limited myself to what is, basically, the "penal substitution" interpretation of the fall/atonement.

When you yourself retold these doctrines, you emphasized a number of non-essential elements, which, yes, are pretty ridiculous from a rational perspective, but no more ridiculous than your claim (for example) that the choice between good and evil demonstrates one's worthiness for happiness. What is more useful to consider is the purpose of those stories, rather than their form.

You sound like a good guy, and these comments are intended to help you not make the same mistake with this set of beliefs that you made with the last set of beliefs, namely, that because they make sense to you, that means that you're right and "those other people" are pitiable and deeply misguided. A lot of smart people get lulled into that, because they hang out with people with insufficient skills in critical thinking (or, alternatively, a total lack of interest) to pick apart their smart friend's "progressive" beliefs. I was (and still am, sometimes) one of them ;)

Cheers.
You need to read my post #2 penal substitution has a lot of problems and does not sell well.
 
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bling

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I awoke from my sleeping crying..

I had an epiphany of sorts..

Jesus died because we were sold as slaves under sin through our own volition.

Dominion belonged to the devil, and He purchased men back to God by His Blood.

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

1 Peter 1:18-19
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Isaiah 62:12
And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

Jeremiah 31:11
For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.

------------

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Numbers 15:28
And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

1 Thessalonians 5:10
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

-----

Revelation 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

2 Corinthians 5:14
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

2 Corinthians 5:15
And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

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The idea that jesus is the ransom paid to satan has gone out of favor long ago. It gives way to much power and significance to satan. Read my post #2.
 
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ittarter

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You need to read my post #2 penal substitution has a lot of problems and does not sell well.

Oh, I'm well aware of the problems of penal substitution. But the way I stated it didn't sound so bad, did it? The fact of the matter is that the penal substitution theory was first propounded in a society where judicial or legal ethics were one of society's central pillars. Since our society no longer really believes in right and wrong, any theory that makes sin out to be, first and foremost, the act of lawbreaking, is not going to "sell well."

Now that our ethics is so fragmented, no theory is not without major problems. I have my own views of the atonement, and rest assured, they are far, far from penal substitution. But am I under the illusion that it is not without its own set of fundamental problems? Nope.
 
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Zeena

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The idea that jesus is the ransom paid to satan has gone out of favor long ago.
Along with Scripture?

It gives way to much power and significance to satan. Read my post #2.
The enemy of God, a fallen angel, greater than men? It is implying nothing beyond that.
 
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bling

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Oh, I'm well aware of the problems of penal substitution. But the way I stated it didn't sound so bad, did it? The fact of the matter is that the penal substitution theory was first propounded in a society where judicial or legal ethics were one of society's central pillars. Since our society no longer really believes in right and wrong, any theory that makes sin out to be, first and foremost, the act of lawbreaking, is not going to "sell well."

Now that our ethics is so fragmented, no theory is not without major problems. I have my own views of the atonement, and rest assured, they are far, far from penal substitution. But am I under the illusion that it is not without its own set of fundamental problems? Nope.
The problems with Penal Substitution (PS) I am refer to are the following:
1. Is there some overriding “Law” that would prevent God from forgiving sins without the shedding of blood?
2.There are benefits to punishment of the wicked: Punishment is part of discipline and has lots of benefits that God would be fully aware of:
a. Deterrent to crime
b. Measures the offence (the greater the offence the greater the punisment)
c. Shows you are truly a child because parents see to it that their children are punished for their crimes.
d. It is fair and just, there needs to be consistency.
e. There is closure with punishment (You do the time for the crime and you can move on).
3.The idea of punishing the innocent instead of punishing the guilty, even if the innocent is OK with it, is not just and fair.
4.I have offended God so it is just and fair for God to see to it that I am punished me, so if Christ is taking my place is God punishing Christ?
5.If Christ is replacing me, then is Christ not also replacing everyone else, so does that not mean universal salvation for everyone?
What I have come up with as the logical better understanding that resolves the problems of (PS) is the following:
The solution I have come up is the result of trying to address these issues and considering the impact on me if Christ had not gone to the cross.
In thinking about God;
1.Did God suffer while Christ was on the cross? Why?
2.Could we say that God suffered more than Christ?
3.Could God not have prevented Christ from ever going to the cross?
In thinking about me;
1.When I/you realized and understood some things about Christ going cross did I/you suffer?
2.Why , when and how much did I/you suffer?
3.Could I (personally) have kept Christ from going to the cross?
4.If I had not sinned then there would have been another way for man to fulfill his objective without Christ having to go to the cross, so can I feel some personal responsibility?
5.Could I handle the physical punishment required for the offence of sin?
Response to each issues by the number:
1.God can forgive without punishment of the guilty, but since there is benefit to punishment and a Loving parent would make sure His children were punished than God will have to make a way for His Children to be punished.
2.A. We are the offender and do not want to sin again, which is throwing salt on the wounds of Christ and others, see the severity of sin by see what Christ went though.
B. The punishment to us which is felt with Christ’s physical and mental suffering, should/could be in proportion to our sins?
C. God as our Parent is seeing to it that we are punished, by allowing a willing Christ to be tortured.
D. It is just to us since we as the guilty are being punished, it is not “just” or fair to Christ, but God is not punishing Christ. God is allowing wicked children of satan to torture Christ, but that is the way God works all the time. God allows satan’s children to do terrible things that provide opportunities for those that are willing or will become willing through their mistakes to repent and accept His Love in the form of forgiveness. The murder of Christ did become a real piercing part of Peter’s message in Acts 2:38.
E. We do not feel the need to be further punished for our sins. We can look back on the cross with mixed emotions since great sorrow and great Love are both there.
3.Christ going to the cross provide another way for us to be punished without physically taking the punishment for our sins, but we were still punished so He is not taking our punishment away, but allowing for a different form of punishment. Christ being physically punished meant that we did not have to be physically punished.
4.God is not punishing Christ instead of us, but allowing Christ to be tortured and die, so we do not have to experience the physical punishment of our sins.
5.The nonbeliever is not punished by Christ going to the cross, so his punishment still awaits him.
6.Since we have received the benefits from being punished than God can mercifully forgive us. If forgiveness came before the punishment it would not be fair to punish us.
What are the issues with my ideas and what is your idea?
 
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bling

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Along with Scripture?

The enemy of God, a fallen angel, greater than men? It is implying nothing beyond that.
You might read my explanation in the previous post.
The idea that God owed satan anything for taking his children back, give way to much status to satan.
 
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ittarter

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You might read my explanation in the previous post.
The idea that God owed satan anything for taking his children back, give way to much status to satan.

And is this such a bad thing? Does not scripture call Satan the ruler of this world? So... according to scripture, who do we belong to, by default? If Satan, then buying us back with a "ransom" would make a lot of sense.

Yeah, it's pretty popular in the Western world to diminish Satan's status and say, "God rules over all," which is our luxury as the upper 1% economically on the whole planet. Whether that train of thought rings true with the New Testament? Well, that's another matter.
 
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