Do Orthodox Believe in Purgatory?

[Bulldog]

Do Orthodox believe in Purgatory?

 

[Jtccjt]

i dont know but to belive in purgatory is not necessary... IMO there is no biblical proof of the doctrine

 

[St. Tikon]

Do Orthodox believe in Purgatory?

The Orthodox belief is that upon death, the person goes to a place of repose until the Judgement. However for the ungodly, that place might well be torment in itself, as evil cannot abide the presence of God.

Purgatory is a Latin innovation. Not Orthodox

 

[Bulldog]

Thanks.

 

[Maximus]

Well, Bulldog, I hope you haven't left this forum for good, thinking you got the Orthodox answer on Purgatory.

I hate to disagree with any of my Orthodox brothers or sisters, but I am Orthodox and I believe in Purgatory.

And the belief in a refining, purging fire after death is Orthodox.

Here it is in the 1672 Orthodox Confession of Dositheus:

Decree XVIII​

We believe that the souls that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each hath wrought; - for when they are separated from their bodies, they depart immediately either to joy, or to sorrow and lamentation; though confessedly neither their enjoyment, nor condemnation is complete. For, after the common resurrection, when the soul shall be be united with the body, with which it had behaved itself well or ill, each shall receive the completion of either enjoyment or of condemnation forsooth.
And such as though involved in mortal sins have not departed in despair, but have, while still living in the body, repented, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance - by pouring forth tears, forsooth, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and in fine by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church hath from the beginning rightly called satisfaction - of these and such like souls depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from thence, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice availing in the highest degree; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike; it being, of course, understood that we know not the time of their release. For that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment we know and believe; but when we know not."

The underlining is mine.

If there is no Purgatory, then what did St. Augustine mean by this?

"Some will be saved through a purifying fire; for a long or short period depending on the extent to which they were attached to things which do not endure" (Enchiridion, 1, Chapter 68).

Or St. Basil the Great?

"When God delivers the spirit from earthly attachments by his avenging fire, it is a benefit for the soul . . . God does not threaten it with utter ruin, but he indicates the soul's purification, according to the words of the Apostle: 'If any man's work is burnt up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire' " (Commentary on Isaiah, 10:20).

St. Maximus the Confessor (one of my personal favorites) wrote the following in his Questions and Doubts on the Church, the Liturgy, and the Soul of Man (Question 10):

"This purification does not concern those who have arrived at a perfect love of God, but those who have not reached complete perfection, and whose virtues are mixed in with sins. These latter will appear before the tribunal of judgment, and, following an examination of their good and evil actions, they will be tried as by fire; their bad works will be expiated by just fear and pain."

Why do we pray for the dead if there is nothing from which they need deliverance?

 

[Bulldog]

No I have not left. Thank you for your anwer Maximus.

 

[ChoirDir]

This was taken from Father John Matusiak of the OCA

We believe that death is the result of sin, that death is not a part of God’s original design for mankind: "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, says the Lord God; so turn and live" (Ezek 18:32). Death was not "created" by God, who is the Source and Author of all life and Who, by revealing His Name as "I AM" to Moses reveals that He is Existence Itself: "God did not make death, and takes no pleasure in the destruction of any living thing; He created all things that they might have being" (Wis 1:13). Death is a consequence of the first sin, a consequence which touches all humanity. Jesus Christ came into the world to conquer death, to point the way to new and eternal life, to offer a refuge from corruption and all that corrupts God’s "good" creation. This was accomplished through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, who "has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at His coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Cor 15:20-26). Finally, our hope as Christians is to share in Christ’s victory over death: "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die" (Jn 11:25-26).

Death, for Orthodox Christians, is always a tragedy, something which distorts the goodness and beauty of God’s creation. By His own example at the tomb of His friend Lazarus we see that death is always tragic, even for the One Who conquers death. Christ came to proclaim new life, to acknowledge that death is not a transition into eternal oblivion, to announce that "through [Him] God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep" (1 Thess 4:14). We also believe that "if we have been united with HIm in a death like His, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His. ... If we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him" (Rom 6:5,8). Concerning prayers for the dead, your question, which is more of a statement, seems to be directed at those who teach that after death humans may encounter "purgatory," an intermediate state in which the "punishment" accorded to sin must be "purged" before one can enter the eternal Kingdom of God. This teaching, found among the Roman Catholics but completely alien to Orthdox Christianity [which rejects the doctrine of purgatory], implies that one should pray for the release of the souls of the departed from such punishment and may imply that the departed, of their own will, can freely repent of the sins they committed during this lifetime.

Orthodox Christians pray for the dead so that the Lord will have mercy on their souls, that He will grant them eternal rest "in the bosom of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob," that He will extend His unfathomable love upon them, and that He will receive them into that state "in which there is neither sickness, nor sighing, nor sorrow, but life everlasting." Saint Paul clearly teaches that those who have gone before us are still members of the Body of Christ, the Church. And it is the duty of the members of the Church to pray for one another. Just as the living continually beseech God to have mercy on them * and may rightly offer prayers to God on behalf of their living spiritual sisters and brothers as well as request prayers on their own behalf from others * so too we have the duty to pray for all members of the Body of Christ, even those who have departed this life and still "belong to Christ." One will find that the early Christians, surrounded as they were by death as a result of official persecution on the part of the Roman Empire, took great care to honor the dead, to bury them with great care and reverence -* to the point of offering the Eucharistic celebration on their graves, which is one of the earliest indications of the veneration of their relics! -* and to remember them especially on the anniversary of their deaths which were seen as "birthdays" into eternal life. In asking God to have mercy on the souls of the departed, we also ask God to have mercy on us who are still in this life, and we recognize that we too shall die. All members of the Church, living as well as faithful departed, cry before the throne of God, "Lord, have mercy on us."

 

[MariaRegina]

Well, Bulldog, I hope you haven't left this forum for good, thinking you got the Orthodox answer on Purgatory.

I hate to disagree with any of my Orthodox brothers or sisters, but I am Orthodox and I believe in Purgatory.

And the belief in a refining, purging fire after death is Orthodox.

Here it is in the 1672 Orthodox Confession of Dositheus:


The underlining is mine.

If there is no Purgatory, then what did St. Augustine mean by this?

"Some will be saved through a purifying fire; for a long or short period depending on the extent to which they were attached to things which do not endure" (Enchiridion, 1, Chapter 68).

Or St. Basil the Great?

"When God delivers the spirit from earthly attachments by his avenging fire, it is a benefit for the soul . . . God does not threaten it with utter ruin, but he indicates the soul's purification, according to the words of the Apostle: 'If any man's work is burnt up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire' " (Commentary on Isaiah, 10:20).

St. Maximus the Confessor (one of my personal favorites) wrote the following in his Questions and Doubts on the Church, the Liturgy, and the Soul of Man (Question 10):

"This purification does not concern those who have arrived at a perfect love of God, but those who have not reached complete perfection, and whose virtues are mixed in with sins. These latter will appear before the tribunal of judgment, and, following an examination of their good and evil actions, they will be tried as by fire; their bad works will be expiated by just fear and pain."

Why do we pray for the dead if there is nothing from which they need deliverance?[/b]

Dear Maximus:

I agree with you on this, but I don't believe in Indulgences.

Bishop Kallistos Ware in his book The Orthodox Church said that Orthodox Christians can believe in a temporary state of purgation after death called "Purgatory." It's just that we cannot call it a dogma of Orthodoxy. I think the Church Fathers make more of a case for Purgatory than those tollhouses, which are not held universally by all people at all times. One can make a scriptural case for purgatorial "fire" but not for tollhouses.

Several Orthodox Saints, through their prayers, have witnessed the release of souls from Hades. This could be "purgatory" where those who aren't purified are detained until prayers from the Church release them. If these are the end times, then we need to increase our prayers for those poor souls who are not yet in heaven.

Yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

 

[St. Tikon]

Well, Bulldog, I hope you haven't left this forum for good, thinking you got the Orthodox answer on Purgatory.

I hate to disagree with any of my Orthodox brothers or sisters, but I am Orthodox and I believe in Purgatory.

And the belief in a refining, purging fire after death is Orthodox.

Here it is in the 1672 Orthodox Confession of Dositheus:


The underlining is mine.

If there is no Purgatory, then what did St. Augustine mean by this?

"Some will be saved through a purifying fire; for a long or short period depending on the extent to which they were attached to things which do not endure" (Enchiridion, 1, Chapter 68).

Or St. Basil the Great?

"When God delivers the spirit from earthly attachments by his avenging fire, it is a benefit for the soul . . . God does not threaten it with utter ruin, but he indicates the soul's purification, according to the words of the Apostle: 'If any man's work is burnt up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire' " (Commentary on Isaiah, 10:20).

St. Maximus the Confessor (one of my personal favorites) wrote the following in his Questions and Doubts on the Church, the Liturgy, and the Soul of Man (Question 10):

"This purification does not concern those who have arrived at a perfect love of God, but those who have not reached complete perfection, and whose virtues are mixed in with sins. These latter will appear before the tribunal of judgment, and, following an examination of their good and evil actions, they will be tried as by fire; their bad works will be expiated by just fear and pain."

Why do we pray for the dead if there is nothing from which they need deliverance?[/b]

The answer to your last question is from the scriptures "Shall not all the judge of the earth do right?"

We pray for the mercy of the Savior and the Intercession of the Theotokos,
before the throne of God, but the Latin idea of Purgatory is NOT an Orthodox belief. As I said before, the dead go to a state of repose, until the judgement, but there is no "time period" or certain number of prayers or indulgences that will free a person from that state. And...it is not a place of unhapiness, unless that person is evil to begin with.

Ask your priest for guidance. There is a REASON why there is no doctrine of Purgatory!

 

[Moros]

No. The doctrine of Purgatory was developed by the Roman Catholics.

 

[Photini]

If the Orthodox do believe in purgatory, why did St Mark of Ephesus argue against it in the Council of Florence? Does the CC still believe in purgatory in the same way they did then, or have their beliefs changed?

 

[St. Tikon]

If the Orthodox do believe in purgatory, why did St Mark of Ephesus argue against it in the Council of Florence? Does the CC still believe in purgatory in the same way they did then, or have their beliefs changed?

Pseudo-Council.....

Florence was not a valid synod of any sort. Orthodox were FORCED there against their will by a Byzantine Emperor who was pandering to the Latins...

 

[Photini]

Pseudo-Council.....

Florence was not a valid synod of any sort. Orthodox were FORCED there against their will by a Byzantine Emperor who was pandering to the Latins...

Yeah, I realise that.
But according to the quote Maximus posted, we believe in purgatory of some sort...but I'm not yet convinced of that. At least, not convinced that it is the same as what the CC believes, because St Mark of Ephesus argued against it in that pseudo-Council. If it was something that we ascribe to, then why was it argued against, unless what we believe differs from the purgatory of the CC. So my question is, has what the CC church believed about purgatory changed since that false Council in Florence?

 

[St. Tikon]

Yeah, I realise that.
But according to the quote Maximus posted, we believe in purgatory of some sort...but I'm not yet convinced of that. At least, not convinced that it is the same as what the CC believes, because St Mark of Ephesus argued against it in that pseudo-Council. If it was something that we ascribe to, then why was it argued against, unless what we believe differs from the purgatory of the CC. So my question is, has what the CC church believed about purgatory changed since that false Council in Florence?

My Uncle who is a Latin, has a Book of Indulgences, so I assume they do....

 

[Maximus]

From what I have read of the Council of Florence, St. Mark conceded that there is a middle state for certain souls after death.

All I was saying is that the concept of a refining fiery trial after death, the duration of which depends on the degree of theosis of the soul subjected to it, is Orthodox.

That is evident from the writings of the Fathers and from Orthodox confessions of faith like The Confession of Dositheus (Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem) that I quoted from earlier.

If you don't like the word Purgatory, call it something else.

A rose is a rose is a rose.

 

[The Prokeimenon!]

Aren't purgatory and indulgences the result of "Satisfaction" salvation? (which is very much not Orthodox)


Moses

 

[Maximus]

Aren't purgatory and indulgences the result of "Satisfaction" salvation? (which is very much not Orthodox)


Moses

Some of the refinements and developments may be, but the notion of purgation after death is found in the Fathers.

 

[prodromos]

I'm reading through "The Orthodox Church" by Bishop Kalistos Ware and he writes that when Dositheus wrote his "Confession" in response to the "Confession" of calvanist patriarch Cyril Lukaris, he drew heavily on Latin sources because they were the tools that were available to him. He does not go into any further detail, so I don't know whether, for example, Dositheus was educated in the West (quite common under Turkish rule as the Greek schools had been closed) and thus influenced by Western thought. I find it interesting that despite his confession being heavily influenced by Latin sources, he does not call the cleansing after death by the name "purgatory" despite using the Latin term "transubstantiation" in describing the Eucharist.

Of the seventeenth century, Bishop Kalistos says the following :- " Looking back on the work of Moghila and Dositheus, on the Councils of Jassy and Jerusalem, and on the correspondence with the Non-Jurors, one is struck by the limitations of Greek theology in this period: one does not find the Orthodox tradition in its fullness. Nevertheless the Councils of the seventeenth century made a permanent and constructive contribution to Orthodoxy."

John.

 

[The Prokeimenon!]

the notion of purgation after death is found in the Fathers.

I understand that some Fathers may have believed in purgatory, or whatever they may have called it, but it's my understanding that the Mind of the Orthodox Church is resoundingly against the doctrine (or is it dogma?) of purgatory.

I think proof-texting the Fathers can be as dangerous as proof-texting the Scriptures, and I think one could find Patristic support for anything they wanted if they tried.

Moses, a sinner

 

[Maximus]

I don't think the problem is "prooftexting." The problem is a kind of knee-jerk anti-Romanism and the concomitant fear of using latinate terms like Purgatory.

Try using the word transubstantiation among some Orthodox and you will get the same reaction, even though that doctrine, properly understood, is the Orthodox understanding.

I was not arguing for the fully-developed RC doctrine of Purgatory.

And I was not talking about punishment either.

The idea is one of purging, not punishment. That is why it's called Purgatory rather than Penaltory or - better yet - Hell.

It's in the Fathers; it's in the New Testament.

And it is Orthodox.