Do Not Bash Muslims

setst777 said:

History Continued:

Imam Hatip Schools

Reforms undertaken in the administration of the İmam Hatip schools in 2012 have led to what one Turkish commentator called “the removal, in practice, of one of the most important laws of the revolution, the Tevhid-i Tedrisat (unity of education)".[4][14]
Directorate of Religious Affairs - Wikipedia

Erdogan has said one of his goals is to forge a “pious generation” in predominantly Muslim Turkey “that will work for the construction of a new civilization.”

His recent speeches have emphasized Turkey’s Ottoman history and domestic achievements over Western ideas and influences.
Reviving Imam Hatip, or Imam and Preacher, schools is part of Erdogan’s drive to put religion at the heart of national life after decades of secular dominance, and his old school is just one beneficiary of a government program to pump billions of dollars into religious education.
With more Islamic schooling, Erdogan aims to reshape Turkey

In 2017, some argued that "Diyanet’s implication in Turkish domestic and foreign politics opens a new chapter on Erdoğan’s increasing authoritarianism".[20]
Directorate of Religious Affairs - Wikipedia

Fatawa

The Diyanet began issuing fatawa on request sometime after 2011, and their number has been "rising rapidly".[4] Among the activities it found forbidden (haram) in Islam over a one-year period ending in late 2015 were: "feeding dogs at home, celebrating the western New Year, lotteries, and tattoos".[4] (Although the Diyanet is a governmental body, its fatawa do not have the force of law in Turkey.)[4]
Directorate of Religious Affairs - Wikipedia

In February 2018, Diyanet stated that using left hand for eating or drinking is not desirable, warning that “demons eat and drink with their left hand.” Diyanet added that people with physical disabilities could use their left hand if necessary.[28]
Directorate of Religious Affairs - Wikipedia

Why do I quote about fatawa? Such fatawa show how deeply into Sharia the Diyanet is taking Turkey – using the Qur’an, Sira and Hadith to define Sharia for all – even seemingly minor rules like eating with your right hand. For now these rules are not mandatory.

One of the more major rules under Hanafi Sharia regards Jihad:

The Al-Hidayah: A Classic Manual of Hanafi Law defines jihad as follows:
“Jihad is a communal obligation…Jihad is determined till the Day of Judgment…’Then shall ye fight, or they shall submit (Qur’an 48:16)’ When the Muslims commence battle, and they have surrounded a city or a fort, they are to invite the inhabitants to accept Islam…If they respond positively, they are to refrain from fighting them, due to the attainment of the purpose. If they refuse, they are to invite them to the payment of jizyah, and this is what the Prophet ordered the commanders of the armies to do for it is one of the consequences upon the conclusion of battle…if they reject the invitation, they are to seek the help of Allah and engage them in combat.”

With the approval of Erdogan, the Diyanet implements this political ideology within conservative Hanafi Sharia of the Turkish AKP party and employ imams trained in Turkey in thousands of mosques under its control in Turkey and other nations.

Jihad launched by 'conquest' prayers from 90K mosques
More than 90,000 mosques throughout Turkey held “conquest” prayers Saturday and Sunday for Muslim warriors to carry out jihad against infidels – in accordance to their Islamic holy book, the Qura
Jihad launched by 'conquest' prayers from 90K mosques

The Justice and Development Party (Turkish: Adalet ve Kalkınma Partisi), abbreviated officially AK Parti in Turkish, is a conservative[18][19] political party in Turkey. Developed from the conservative tradition of Turkey's Ottoman past and its Islamic identity,[20] the party is the largest in Turkey.
Justice and Development Party (Turkey) - Wikipedia

As I mentioned earlier, Erdogan Islamization one-Islam goals is not just for Turkey, but everywhere else.

How Turkey Is Spreading Its Radical Islamist Agenda to Europe

Erdogan is building Mosques in Europe to spread political Islam

Germany and Sweden have uncovered Erdogan’s Islamic political agenda being taught in his Mosques in those countries, including Kosovo, and are now closing down many of Erdogan’s mosques and sending back Erdogan’s Imams.
https://www.algemeiner.com/2018/10/22/how-turkey-is-spreading-its-radical-islamist-agenda-to-europe/

Wikipedia - International

Germany

Main article: Turkish-Islamic Union for Religious Affairs
See also: Turks in Germany and Islam in Germany

The Turkish-Islamic Union for Religious Affairs (German: Türkisch-Islamische Union der Anstalt für Religion e.V., Turkish: Diyanet İşleri Türk-İslam Birliği), usually referred to as DİTİB, was founded in 1984 As of 2016, the DİTİB funds 900 mosques in Germany.[29] The headquarters of DİTİB is the Cologne Central Mosque in Cologne-Ehrenfeld.
Directorate of Religious Affairs - Wikipedia

The Netherlands

See also: Turks in the Netherlands and Islam in the Netherlands

Of the 475 mosques in the Netherlands in 2018, a plurality (146) are controlled by the Turkish Directorate of Religious Affairs (Diyanet). Diyanet implements the political ideology of the Turkish AKP party and employ imams trained in Turkey in mosques under its control. Critics of the Diyanet imams, some of whom do not speak Dutch, hinder the effective integration of Dutch-Turkish Muslims into the society of the Netherlands by promoting allegiance to the Turkish state while neglecting to promote loyalty to the Dutch state.[30]
Directorate of Religious Affairs - Wikipedia

Sweden

See also: Islam in Sweden and Turks in Sweden

According to Dagens Nyheter in 2017, nine mosques in Sweden have imams sent and paid for by the Turkish Directorate of Religious Affairs (Diyanet). Along with their religious duties, the imams are also tasked with reporting on critics of the Turkish government. According to Dagens Nyheter, propaganda for president Erdoğan and the AKP party is presented in the mosques.[31][32]
Directorate of Religious Affairs - Wikipedia

Kosovo

APRIL 9, 2018 2:28 PM – Building and remodeling mosques in Kosovo – a beacon of democracy in an Islamic nation.

Kosovo and Erdogan’s Dangerous Islamic Agenda

Lulzim Peci, the former Ambassador of Kosovo to Sweden and Executive Director of the Kosovo Institute for Policy Research and Development (KIPRED), is one of the most critical voices in Kosovo against Erdogan’s Islamist scheme. He agrees that the mosques built in Kosovo are political establishments meant to promulgate Erdogan’s vision. “
https://www.algemeiner.com/2018/04/09/kosovo-and-erdogans-dangerous-islamic-agenda/

What do we learn from this?

We learn that Erdogan is extremely intent in indoctrinating Turkey’s Islamic citizens – from school age to adult. This indoctrination of political Islam is being expanded to other countries.

In closing:

Erdogan does believe in one Islam under Sharia Law while also keeping economic secular law in place.

Erdogan is promoting this one Islam through schools and Mosques and the changing of laws in favor of Islamic Sharia.

“The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and Muslims our soldiers…” The Prime Minister of Turkey, Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

What is the political Islam that Erdogan is teaching in these thousands of Mosques in Turkey and foreign lands that is so controversial to German and other countries?

Besides Jihad against unbelievers, Erdogan is preaching a political agenda – some of which is seemingly good. Only time will tell where this all leads. One thing is certain, Erdogan’s use of the phrase: “One Islam” has far deeper meaning than most people think, and has to do with bringing back Islam under Sharia.

"One Islam" is an Islam that is once again under Sharia. That is Erdogan’s dream.

So when Erdogan chastises the Crown Prince for using the phrase “moderate Islam” we must take into account Erdogan’s agenda – to create a one world Islam under Sharia. Erdogan does not believe in secularizing Islam’s Sharia.

Erdogan is working to correct this error, and sees the Crown Prince as going in the opposite direction that he is taking Islam into – a one Islam under Sharia.

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JosephZ said:

Because the experts are in agreement with your sources.

Here is one of your sources: "Western politicians should stop pretending that extremism and terrorism have nothing to do with Islam. There is a clear relationship between fundamentalism, terrorism, and the basic assumptions of Islamic orthodoxy. So long as we lack consensus regarding this matter, we cannot gain victory over fundamentalist violence within Islam.

Radical Islamic movements are nothing new. They’ve appeared again and again throughout our own history in Indonesia. The West must stop ascribing any and all discussion of these issues to 'Islamophobia'.” --- Yahya Cholil Staquf

What is Staquf says throughout that article is inline with that of terrorism expert Dr. Jeffrey Bale:

"Ever since the jihadist terrorist attacks on 11 September 2001, Western policy-makers, mainstream media organs, and even academicians have been reluctant to highlight the key role played by Islamist ideology in motivating jihadist terrorist attacks. This is all the more peculiar given that, as is typical of ideological extremists, the perpetrators of these attacks themselves openly and indeed proudly emphasize the central role played by their religious beliefs, specifically their strict, puritanical interpretations of Islamic scriptures (i.e., the Qur’an) and their supposed emulation of the exemplary words and deeds of Islam’s prophet Muhammad (as recorded in the six canonical hadith collections), in motivating their violent actions. One might imagine that the gap between the oft-professed motivations of the Islamist perpetrators and the assessment of their motivations by Western analysts would be closing with the passage of time, all the more so given that jihadists have since carried out thousands of acts of terrorism in various regions of the world. Yet in fact the exact opposite has occurred: the more acts of jihadist terrorism that are carried out, in which the perpetrators clearly reveal their ideological motivations, the more insistently key Western elites refuse to give credence to those motivations. It should be remembered, for example, that the official 9/11 Report prepared by the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States did not avoid referring to the sponsors’ and perpetrators’ religious motivations, and indeed often used accurate descriptive terms like “radical Islam,” “Islamic fundamentalism,” “jihadists,” “Islamists,” and “Islamism” (even if the section on the apparent involvement of certain Saudi officials in the plot was almost completely redacted and details about the egregious failures of certain government agencies were suppressed). Since then, however, various Western government officials and media outlets have instead repeatedly sought to banish the use of terms like “jihadist” and “Islamic terrorism” from public discourse, thereby effectively acting to conceal the core ideological motivations of our Islamist adversaries in an era characterized by explicitly ideological contestation and ideologically-motivated asymmetric warfare."

Islamism is an extreme right-wing, intrinsically anti-democratic, and indeed totalitarian 20th-century political ideology deriving from an exceptionally strict and puritanical interpretation of core Islamic religious and legal doctrines. Islamism is only one of many possible interpretations of such doctrines, of course, but it is by far the most intolerant, aggressive, belligerent, and imperialistic of all of those interpretations... Although it is certainly true that Islamism and its jihadist variants do indeed derive from specific interpretations of Islam, some of which are quite orthodox and hence arguably legitimate whereas others are instead highly idiosyncratic... these particular interpretations are by no means the only possible interpretations of core Islamic doctrines, traditions and values, much less the most authentic, valid or widely shared interpretations.

Source: The Darkest Sides of Politics, II and here: Totalitarian Movements and Political Religions

Here is Dr. Bale's bio found on the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism's website.

Jeffery Bale is the Director of the Monterey Terrorism Research and Education Program (MonTREP) and Associate Professor in the Graduate School of International Policy Studies at the Monterey Institute of International Studies (MIIS). He obtained his B.A. in Middle Eastern, Islamic, and Central Asian history at the University of Michigan, his M.A. in social movements and political sociology at the University of California at Berkeley, and his Ph.D. in contemporary European history at Berkeley. He has taught at Berkeley, Columbia University, and the University of California at Irvine, and was the recipient of postdoctoral fellowships from the Society of Fellows in the Humanities at Columbia, the Office of Scholarly Programs at the Library of Congress, and the Center for German and European Studies at Berkeley. Dr. Bale has been studying extremist and terrorist groups for many years, has done archival research and interviewed extremists in several countries, and has published numerous articles on terrorism, right-wing extremism, Islamism, and covert operations. He is in the process of updating two book manuscripts on neo-fascist terrorist networks in Cold War Europe, editing a special issue of the journal Totalitarian Movements and Political Religions on Islamism, and gathering primary and secondary source materials for three new monographs, one on Islamist networks operating in Europe and North America, another on the growing reported links between dissident left- and right-wing radicals in the West and Islamist terrorists, and still another on "conspiracy theories" concerning major recent acts of terrorism (from the 1993 World Trade Center bombing to the 7/7 bombings in London). In addition to his teaching and research duties at MIIS, he also teaches courses on an adjunct basis at the Naval Postgraduate School and regularly consults for the U.S. government on matters related to political and religious extremism.

Here is another expert, William Braniff, who also says the same thing as your source:

Braniff: When I talk about this in my professional realm, I talk about jihadism and "ism." It is part of the Islamic tradition and you can not separate Islam from the conversation about a group like al Qaeda or ISIL.

Caller: The Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, Are they in fact Islamic?

Braniff: Yes.

CALLER: So are they Islamic terrorists?

braniff: Yes.

And here is his bio:

William Braniff is the Director of the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism (START) and a Professor of the Practice at the University of Maryland. He previously served as the Director of Practitioner Education and an Instructor at West Point’s Combating Terrorism Center (CTC). There he led the practitioner education program, the nation’s largest provider of counterterrorism education to federal, state and local governmental audiences.

Braniff is a graduate of the United States Military Academy where he received his bachelor’s degree. Following his Company Command as an Armor Officer in the U.S. Army, Braniff attended the Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS) where he received a master’s degree in international relations. Upon graduation, Bill worked in the nuclear counterterrorism field at the Department of Energy's National Nuclear Security Administration, and as a research associate with the CTC Harmony Project at West Point.

Braniff lectures frequently for counterterrorism audiences in partnership with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Joint Special Operations University, National Defense University, the United States Attorneys’ Office, the Foreign Service Institute, the Diplomatic Security Service, Defense Intelligence Agency and Immigration and Customs Enforcement. Braniff has also taken a keen interest in the field of Countering Violent Extremism (CVE). He has consulted with the Department of Justice, the FBI and the National Security Staff, playing a key role in an interagency working group dedicated to the topic. In June of 2013, Bill testified before Congress regarding American attitudes towards terrorism and counterterrorism, and in February of 2014 and again in February 2015 he testified before the House Armed Services Committee on the evolving nature of global jihadism. Also in February of 2015, Bill was asked to speak at the White House CVE Summit, to the United Nations Counterterrorism Executive Directorate, and to the Global Counterterrorism Forum Foreign Terrorist Fighter Working group.


Based on the above, it doesn't sound like they are to me.


Your sources and the experts are in agreement. However, unlike you, they differentiate between Islamic extremism and the religion of Islam that the vast majority of the world's Muslims follow. This is where you are in error.


Since the experts are in agreement with your sources, it shows that you have never taken the time to listen to what the experts actually have to say. Instead, you get abbreviated versions of what they say from anti-Islamic propaganda sites and not the whole story.

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Where did I reject the testimonies of the "six witnesses" you provided. You said that your witnesses say that Islamic Sharia Ideology IS the major cause of the problems in theses Islamic dominated countries and that orthodox, traditional, classical Islam is the major cause of these problems in those countries. All I said was I didn't get that from reading the sources you provided.

What I got from those "witnesses" is that Islamic extremism/extremists and their distorted views of Islam, including traditional Islam are to blame. And unlike you, they all made a distinction between the religion of Islam and the Extremists/Fundamentalist interpretations of Islam.

For example, I'm in total agreement with your witness Yahya Cholil Staquf and what he said in the Time magazine article. I have even said some of the same things he does in that article when I have responded to you in this thread.

"Many Muslims [And You] assume there is an established and immutable [unchangeable, fixed, set, rigid] set of Islamic laws, which are often described as shariah." -- Yahya Cholil Staquf

I have told you that you have a different understanding of Shari'a than Muslims and that they are not a set list of rules.

"Any [fundamentalist] view of Islam positing the traditional norms of Islamic jurisprudence as absolute [should] be rejected out of hand as false." -- Yahya Cholil Staquf

I have told you that Islamic extremists/fundamentalist do not represent the religion of Islam that the vast majority of the world's Muslims follow and should be rejected.

"Generations ago, we achieved a de facto consensus in Indonesia that Islamic teachings must be contextualized to reflect the ever-changing circumstances of time and place. The majority of Indonesian Muslims were — and I think still are — of the opinion that the various assumptions embedded within Islamic tradition must be viewed within the historical, political and social context of their emergence in the Middle Ages [in the Middle East] and not as absolute injunctions that must dictate Muslims’ behavior in the present … Which ideological opinions are “correct” is not determined solely by reflection and debate. These are struggles [about who and what is recognized as religiously authoritative]. Political elites in Indonesia routinely employ Islam as a weapon to achieve their worldly objectives." -- Yahya Cholil Staquf

I have told you many times over that textual and historical context is key to interpreting Islamic texts/sources and how they are to be applied to Muslims today.

"Over the past 50 years, Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states have spent massively to promote their ultra-conservative version of Islam worldwide." -- Yahya Cholil Staquf

I have told you that what you are describing is Wahhabism that originated in the Arabian peninsula and how Saudi Arabia has been funding missionaries, schools and mosque throughout the world pushing this perverted sect of Islam.

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1. Sharia should be law of land
2. Muslims who believe sharia should be law who accept death penalty for apostasy
3. % of Muslims who accept death penalty for apostasy

JosephZ said:

Erdogan is only saying what most Muslims believe. There is only one Islam. Many Muslims believe that the term moderate Islam degrades the religion and doesn't do enough to separate Islamic extremism and the religion of Islam that the majority of the world's Muslims follow.

Have you noticed how I have been responding to you in this thread?


Even I choose not to use terms like moderate Islam and instead use the term "the religion of Islam" to describe what the vast majority of Muslims follow. There is either Islamic extremism (Wahhabism, Fundamentalism, etc.) or the religion of Islam, there is no "moderate Islam".

While there may be many Islamic cultures found in the world, there is only one Islam.


I lived in Turkey for 11 months while in the military, I know its history.


Once again, the one Islam Erdogan is talking about isn't even close to what you are describing in this thread.


This is not a quote from Erdogen, this is from a poem by Ziya Gökalp. Erdogan was sentenced to prison for reciting this poem during a speech in 1997.


Erdogan is preaching jihad against non-Muslims? I haven't seen any evidence of this.


You have it backwards. Erdogen was rebuking the Crown Prince for his hypocrisy by claiming to be moderate, while denying basic human rights.

“The mindset that excludes women from life does not take its reference from Islam but tradition. You talk about moderate Islam but deny women driving cars. Is there any obstacle in Islam to this? No. What is this paradox?”


Unlike you and the OP who believe that Islam hasn't changed since the 7th century and the Wahhabists/fundamentalist interpretations of Islam and Shari'a are the correct interpretations, and it's most of the world's Muslims who don't adhere to the extremist interpretations that need to live up to Islam’s immutable commandments; Erdogen holds a much different position.

‘Islam is updated over time, you can't impose old rules to modern times,' President Erdoğan said on International Women's Day as he criticized controversial remarks from theologians tying misogyny to Islam.

Erdoğan also underlined that Islam's rules for daily life and human relationships are updated over time, criticizing recent misogynistic remarks by some bigoted clerics.

On International Women's Day, President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan hosted women from all walks of life at the Presidential Complex. As he heaped praise on women's role in society, the president also slammed "some clerics" justifying violence against women and defending other forms of misogyny with reference to Islam.

"Recently, some people claiming to be clerics issued statements contradicting the religion. It is hard to understand. They have no place in our times. They don't know Islam needed an update and is accordingly updated. You can't apply the practices applied 15 centuries ago today. Islam changes and adopts to the conditions of different ages. This is the beauty of Islam," Erdoğan said.

Erdoğan slams bigoted clerics degrading women

“We do not seek reform in religion, which is beyond our capability … Our holy Quran has and will always have words to say. Its commandments will never change. But the independent reasoning derived from them, the developed rules and their implementation will surely change according to the time, the conditions and the possibilities,”

“The understanding that tries to depict Islam as a religion closed off to change and the understanding that attributes deviancies that have nothing to do with Islam to our religion only serve the same aim,” Erdoğan said.

Centuries-old Islamic provisions cannot be implemented today: Erdoğan - Turkey News

Erdogen has been a leader in Turkey for 16 years now. He is also a leading voice against Islamic extremism and those who use Islam to deny rights to others both Mulsims and non-Muslims alike. He is clearly not in agreement with you on your interpretation of Islam or Shari'a.

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JosephZ said:

I'm pretty sure the majority of Muslims that acknowledged him considered him to be a kook.

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Are you sure about that?

He calls his female followers “kittens"... Some of the female followers, many of whom are accused of having plastic surgery to make themselves look alike, also host TV shows on A9, where they discuss social issues. Oktar is also known for organising parties in hotel rooms and his yacht attended by dozens of women. His following is commonly likened to a sex cult.

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That's not the impression I get.

“From now there will be no fight for freedom of faith, freedom of thought, and freedom of opinion. Everyone will be free in their own faith, be free to live accordingly. In the fields of opinions and thought, everyone will say whatever he or she believes in. There will be no debate on whether any woman’s head is covered or not.” -- President Erdogan, August 4, 2018

These articles give a little history about the previous ban on head coverings for women in Turkey.

Why Turkey Lifted Its Ban on the Islamic Headscarf
Turkey lifts decades-old ban on headscarves

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It appears they may have just cause for arresting him.

Notorious Muslim televangelist Adnan Oktar, known for leading a cultish group, was arrested by Turkish police in Istanbul on Friday over a number of serious charges, including forming a criminal organisation, sexual abuse of children and sexual assault.

According to the Turkish media, after Oktar was detained on Wednesday, he said that he was surprised to be arrested since he supported Erdogan in the June elections. He said he believed the president was not aware of the operation against him.

Other charges Oktar faces are sexual intercourse with minors, kidnapping children, sexual harassment, blackmailing, holding people captive, menace, political and military espionage, fraud by exploiting religious feelings and beliefs, money laundering, violation of privacy, forgery of official documents, opposition to anti-terror law, coercion, slander, alienating citizens from mandatory military service, insulting, false incrimination, perjury, aggravated fraud, opposition to law against smuggling, opposition to tax regulation law, bribery, preventing one’s right to education and civil rights, torture, illegal recording of personal data, and violating the law on the protection of family and women.

Oktar owns a TV channel called A9, from where he broadcasts a show on religious and social issues surrounded by surgically enhanced women he refers to as his “kittens.”

During the operations into his compound, police confiscated six truckloads of historical artifacts and antiques along with more than 400 memory sticks, 70 weapons, over 3,000 bullets, luxury cars, and considerable amounts of cash.

Within the scope of the investigation, the indictment has recorded the statement of 125 victims and complainants.

Istanbul court approves indictment of cult leader Oktar
Televangelist Adnan Oktar arrested, denies charges - Turkey News

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You aren't going to get a fair and balanced report about anything or anyone related to Islam from the site "The Middle East Forum" that you linked to.

A questionable source exhibits one or more of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no sourcing to credible information, a complete lack of transparency and/or is fake news. Fake News is the deliberate attempt to publish hoaxes and/or disinformation for the purpose of profit or influence (Learn More). Sources listed in the Questionable Category may be very untrustworthy and should be fact checked on a per article basis.

Bias: Extreme Right, Propaganda, Conspiracy, Anti-Islam

In review, The Middle East Forum is an anti-Islamist and strongly pro-Israel group. They often use moderately loaded wording in their headlines such as this: Migration to Europe Becomes a Crisis and they rarely provide hyperlinked sourcing. The Middle East Forum also republishes articles from right leaning sources such as the Washington Times and the Gatestone Institute.

The Middle East Forum has been placed on the Hate Watch list by the Southern Poverty Law Center for financing a rally in London last month in support of English far-right provocateur Tommy Robinson. The MEF also bankrolled Arizona Congressman Paul Gosar’s trip to the U.K. to attend the rally for the jailed far-right activist.

In response to the rally, on June 19, 2018 a letter was published in The Guardian with over 50 signatories, including British parliamentarians, condemning the rally calling it a “resurgent of the racist right.”

“The racist right are using Robinson to reorganize,” the letter states. “Nazi salutes and Islamophobia were at the centre of the mobilisation. This is the first serious attempt since the collapse of the English Defence League (EDL) to develop a racist street movement and give it a political form.”

Further, the founder and President of the Middle East Forum, Daniel Pipes is listed as an Islamophobic Individual by CAIR.

Overall, we rate the Middle East Forum Questionable due to Anti-Islamic views that have been labeled as hate by multiple organizations. (D. Van Zandt 8/11/2018)

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JosephZ said:

I'm pretty sure he was never acknowledged as a reputable scholar based on his history.

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Of course his critics would accuse him of this.

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Yes, before they were being discriminated against. Now they are not.

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If anything, this would be evidence of Erdogen pushing for equal rights.

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The source was't the SPLC or Cair. It was mediafactcheck. They are not the only two organizations that make these claims against Middle East Forum. Just reading the article you linked to shows their bias as it left out much of what Erdogen said at that conference and was intentionally worded to shine a bad light on him. I'm not a big fan of Erdogen, but that article was not being fair towards him.

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Yes, actions speak louder than words. What I observe in the Muslim world is much different than what you are portraying here and what I have read on many of the websites you have linked to.

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I suggest you take a break from the internet, do some traveling, and start interacting more with Muslims if you want to learn what Islam teaches and what Muslims believe.

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JosephZ said:

No, they are not. Here are some more quotes from Dr. Bale for example.

Until Western intelligence, military, and law enforcement personnel are provided with accurate information about the history and core religious doctrines of Islam and the intrinsically extremist nature of Islamism, and until they are taught how to distinguish between Muslim moderates and Islamist extremists (including those who are posing as moderates) and learn how to recognise the many telltale signs of Islamist ideological radicalisation, they will generally be unable to identify prospective jihadist terrorists in advance.

The above is talking about people like you who can't differentiate between the religion of Islam that the majority of the world's Muslims follow and what it teaches and the extremist ideology and what it teaches. Yes, the history and core religious doctrines of Islam do contain some references to violence, but until you learn their textual and historical importance and you can make a distinction between the religion of Islam and Islamic extremism, you will continue to be in error.

It should also go without saying that relying on Islamist activists for “advice” about how to deal with the threat posed by Islamism is not only preposterous but utterly self-defeating.

Once again, the above is talking about people like you. The sources you have been using and relying on to support your position in these threads have been coming from extremists and anti-Islamic propagandists.

Dr. Bale differentiates between the religion of Islam and Islamism (Extremism) in his articles. Your failure to do this is what leads you to have a misunderstanding of what the religion Islam that the vast majority of the world's Muslims follow teaches.


Dr. Bale and Dr Brannif would agree to this statement if it were worded that most extremism and terrorism are caused by social factors, and have little, or nothing, to do with the religion of Islam its self. The consensus among experts is overwhelming.

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Here’s What a Man Who Studied Every Suicide Attack in the World Says About ISIS’ Motives

“ Far from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation.”
Source: MI5 Study: The Tactics of Bigotry | Spiritual Perception

“Religion is not the strongest driving force behind thousands of foreign fighters joining ISIS and other terrorist groups in Iraq and Syria, a report by US military researchers has found. A new study by the Combating Terrorism Center (CTC) at West Point revealed that the vast majority of almost 1,200 militants surveyed had no formal religious education and had not adhered to Islam for their entire lives.”
Source: New report confirms what we all suspected about Isis

“ A French journalist’s ISIS captors cared little about religion, Didier Francois — who spent over 10 months as the group’s prisoner in Syria — told CNN’s Christiane Amanpour in an exclusive interview on Tuesday. “There was never really discussion about texts or — it was not a religious discussion. It was a political discussion.” “It was more hammering what they were believing than teaching us about the Quran. Because it has nothing to do with the Quran.” “We didn’t even have the Quran; they didn’t want even to give us a Quran.”
Source: ISIS captors cared little about religion, says Francois - CNN

“ There is no theological dimension. Their knowledge of Islam is minimal and they don’t care, although the religious myth plays an emotional role.” “None of them was active in religious activities (proselytism): when they preach Islam it is to recruit other radicals, not to spread the good news. This explains why (1) the close monitoring of mosques brings little information; (2) imams have little or no influence on the process of radicalisation; (3) “reforming Islam” does not make sense: they just don’t care about ‘what Islam really means.’”
Source: The Truth About Modern Jihad: It's Not Really About Religion - New Matilda


This is true. Islamic extremism and extremists do not represent the religion of Islam that the vast majority of the world's Muslims follow.

While Islamic terrorism has been the predominant type in recent years, the religion of Islam is not the cause of most terrorism.

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Yes, many Wahhabists and fundamentalist Muslims.

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How can this be when you earlier stated that you had never read Reliance of the Traveler?

It's obvious that neither you nor the OP have ever read reliance of the Traveler. If you had you would know that it's only an abridged legal manual which is one of several hundred available on Islamic law. Here are some excerpts from the introduction:

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